I Do Not Celebrate Thanksgiving

[Taomon]

I am America, that is to say that I represent the notion that America is a melting pot. Like many of us, I am a mutt. Half of my family is Irish and British while the other half is German and Blackfoot Sioux. Out of respect for my heritage, I do not celebrate Thanksgiving, which angers the Irish side of my family.

The argument always is, "why can't you just celebrate and be thankful for family and friends." To which I reply that "I am thankful everyday for my family and friends. But this day I cannot pretend that eating turkey and saying grace does not represent the slaughter of so many innocent men, women & children."

I read the book “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee” each year around this time. This year I watched the HBO movie of the same name. But I don’t think the holiday should be abolished. In fact, I understand why I experience hostility about my convictions. Accepting that one is part of a society that committed such a horrible atrocity is a hard pill to swallow. And so I have been attacked verbally; my beliefs ridiculed.

Because America is a melting pot, we must consider the traditions of all Americans. This even includes the Anglo-Saxons who committed a holocaust against the indigenous people of this land. So throwing money at the problem in the form of reparations is not enough. In fact, it is counter-productive.

My proposal is thus, we should make November a month of remembrance. We should teach our children about what really happened. We should restore dilapidated reservations. We must give land to descendants of Native Americans or low cost mortgages. We must make sure that the areas which are sacred - such as the Black Hills, are never subject to mining, logging or any other blasphemy.

It is better to acknowledge a problem and then atone for it than to simply expect money to appease us like whores. This country has never done that. In fact, our lack of action points to a bigotry and sense of entitlement.

Anyone who truly believes that Native American Indians are better off now should go check out a reservation. They don't all own a casino, and the ones that do don’t always spread that money around as they should.

I think Thanksgiving has become commercial. Moreover, I think that it has become a soar spot for people who deserve to regain lost dignity. And anyone who tries to justify the holiday and the American attitude of suppressing the holocaust of Native American Indians is spitting in our faces. This isn't a matter of some savages getting shafted. This is a matter of men, women & children being brutally slaughtered, forced into poverty, and shunned for decades as rich investors raped the land that they held sacred.

We do not need to retreat into bygone days. But we do need atonement.

 

[Gunny]

I am America, that is to say that I represent the notion that America is a melting pot. Like many of us, I am a mutt. Half of my family is Irish and British while the other half is German and Blackfoot Sioux. Out of respect for my heritage, I do not celebrate Thanksgiving, which angers the Irish side of my family.

The argument always is, "why can't you just celebrate and be thankful for family and friends." To which I reply that "I am thankful everyday for my family and friends. But this day I cannot pretend that eating turkey and saying grace does not represent the slaughter of so many innocent men, women & children."

I read the book “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee” each year around this time. This year I watched the HBO movie of the same name. But I don’t think the holiday should be abolished. In fact, I understand why I experience hostility about my convictions. Accepting that one is part of a society that committed such a horrible atrocity is a hard pill to swallow. And so I have been attacked verbally; my beliefs ridiculed.

Because America is a melting pot, we must consider the traditions of all Americans. This even includes the Anglo-Saxons who committed a holocaust against the indigenous people of this land. So throwing money at the problem in the form of reparations is not enough. In fact, it is counter-productive.

My proposal is thus, we should make November a month of remembrance. We should teach our children about what really happened. We should restore dilapidated reservations. We must give land to descendants of Native Americans or low cost mortgages. We must make sure that the areas which are sacred - such as the Black Hills, are never subject to mining, logging or any other blasphemy.

It is better to acknowledge a problem and then atone for it than to simply expect money to appease us like whores. This country has never done that. In fact, our lack of action points to a bigotry and sense of entitlement.

Anyone who truly believes that Native American Indians are better off now should go check out a reservation. They don't all own a casino, and the ones that do don’t always spread that money around as they should.

I think Thanksgiving has become commercial. Moreover, I think that it has become a soar spot for people who deserve to regain lost dignity. And anyone who tries to justify the holiday and the American attitude of suppressing the holocaust of Native American Indians is spitting in our faces. This isn't a matter of some savages getting shafted. This is a matter of men, women & children being brutally slaughtered, forced into poverty, and shunned for decades as rich investors raped the land that they held sacred.

We do not need to retreat into bygone days. But we do need atonement.

So don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Who cares?

 

[William Joyce]

So don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Who cares?

Or go live on a fucking reservation and pow-wow with the injuns and leave the rest of us alone. Ask Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt to go with you.

 

[trobinett]

I am America, that is to say that I represent the notion that America is a melting pot. Like many of us, I am a mutt. Half of my family is Irish and British while the other half is German and Blackfoot Sioux. Out of respect for my heritage, I do not celebrate Thanksgiving, which angers the Irish side of my family.

The argument always is, "why can't you just celebrate and be thankful for family and friends." To which I reply that "I am thankful everyday for my family and friends. But this day I cannot pretend that eating turkey and saying grace does not represent the slaughter of so many innocent men, women & children."

I read the book “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee” each year around this time. This year I watched the HBO movie of the same name. But I don’t think the holiday should be abolished. In fact, I understand why I experience hostility about my convictions. Accepting that one is part of a society that committed such a horrible atrocity is a hard pill to swallow. And so I have been attacked verbally; my beliefs ridiculed.

Because America is a melting pot, we must consider the traditions of all Americans. This even includes the Anglo-Saxons who committed a holocaust against the indigenous people of this land. So throwing money at the problem in the form of reparations is not enough. In fact, it is counter-productive.

My proposal is thus, we should make November a month of remembrance. We should teach our children about what really happened. We should restore dilapidated reservations. We must give land to descendants of Native Americans or low cost mortgages. We must make sure that the areas which are sacred - such as the Black Hills, are never subject to mining, logging or any other blasphemy.

It is better to acknowledge a problem and then atone for it than to simply expect money to appease us like whores. This country has never done that. In fact, our lack of action points to a bigotry and sense of entitlement.

Anyone who truly believes that Native American Indians are better off now should go check out a reservation. They don't all own a casino, and the ones that do don’t always spread that money around as they should.

I think Thanksgiving has become commercial. Moreover, I think that it has become a soar spot for people who deserve to regain lost dignity. And anyone who tries to justify the holiday and the American attitude of suppressing the holocaust of Native American Indians is spitting in our faces. This isn't a matter of some savages getting shafted. This is a matter of men, women & children being brutally slaughtered, forced into poverty, and shunned for decades as rich investors raped the land that they held sacred.

We do not need to retreat into bygone days. But we do need atonement.

Atonement? Are you serious?

Sounds like you've got some serious social issues.

Maybe it would be better if you just put a period on it, and moved the fuck on.

Just a suggestion.............

 

[pegwinn]

I am America, that is to say that I represent the notion that America is a melting pot. Like many of us, I am a mutt. Half of my family is Irish and British while the other half is German and Blackfoot Sioux. Out of respect for my heritage, I do not celebrate Thanksgiving, which angers the Irish side of my family.

The argument always is, "why can't you just celebrate and be thankful for family and friends." To which I reply that "I am thankful everyday for my family and friends. But this day I cannot pretend that eating turkey and saying grace does not represent the slaughter of so many innocent men, women & children." Actually, it represents whatever you want it to represent. The holiday was created to be thankful for blessings received. So, you can choose what to celebrate. Or you can choose not too. Welcome to America.

I read the book “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee” each year around this time. This year I watched the HBO movie of the same name. But I don’t think the holiday should be abolished. In fact, I understand why I experience hostility about my convictions. Accepting that one is part of a society that committed such a horrible atrocity is a hard pill to swallow. And so I have been attacked verbally; my beliefs ridiculed. I won't ridicule your beliefs. Likewise, I am not part of a society that committed this, your words, atrocity.

Because America is a melting pot, we must consider the traditions of all Americans. Nope. We don't. We may or may not at our discretion. That is the great tradition of America. This even includes the Anglo-Saxons who committed a holocaust against the indigenous people of this land. So throwing money at the problem in the form of reparations is not enough. In fact, it is counter-productive.

My proposal is thus, we should make November a month of remembrance. We should teach our children about what really happened. Fair enough. We should restore dilapidated reservations. Nope We must give land to descendants of Native Americans or low cost mortgages. Nope We must make sure that the areas which are sacred - such as the Black Hills, are never subject to mining, logging or any other blasphemy. Why? What makes them any more sacred than ANWAR or the redwood forests yadablahetc?

It is better to acknowledge a problem and then atone for it than to simply expect money to appease us like whores. This country has never done that. In fact, our lack of action points to a bigotry and sense of entitlement. Our? Are you including me personally in your "our"? IF so, read on. If not, read on anyway.

Anyone who truly believes that Native American Indians are better off now should go check out a reservation. Whose fault is that? Look up the term bootstrap. They don't all own a casino, and the ones that do don’t always spread that money around as they should.

I think Thanksgiving has become commercial. That makes it a member of a not really exclusive club. Moreover, I think that it has become a soar spot for people who deserve to regain lost dignity. Again, see bootstrap And anyone who tries to justify the holiday and the American attitude of suppressing the holocaust of Native American Indians is spitting in our faces. Spitting? Really? This isn't a matter of some savages getting shafted. This is a matter of men, women & children being brutally slaughtered, forced into poverty, and shunned for decades as rich investors raped the land that they held sacred. Source?

We do not need to retreat into bygone days. But we do need atonement. Nope

I believe you have the right to feel anyway you want. If you wish to view history from a victims standpoint, that is your right. After all you are an American.

I am a Native American. Meaning that I come from Texas. Am I an Indian? I have a drop or two of Cherokee from way, way, waaaaaaaaay back. Guess what, I also have British, Scot, and German blood as well.

While you have the right to your beliefs, you don't have the right to attempt to impose them on others. You, personally, deserve nothing. Your tribe, today, deserves nothing. Your reservations are nothing more than breeding grounds for self pity.

IF you were one of the original Indians conquered by the expanding USA then perhaps you would personally rate something. But, after generations of failing to assimilate into the culture, asking Me to personally atone for something I didn't do is ludicrous.

Here is some heartfelt advice. Get off the reservation and become an American without leaning on a .gov crutch and holding a pity party every November. Instead of expecting people who did no harm to "atone", move beyond the victim mentality and set a positive example for your fellow Americans still unable or unwilling to get off the reservation and make something of themselves.

Finally, since you are part German, are you sending in your "share" of reparations to Israel?

I contend your position is untenable and is based on self pity and a lazy desire to benefit from the misfortunes of your ancestors.

 

[Toro]

In honour of the native Americans, we should change the name of the Washington Redskins to the Washington Brian-Dead Redneck Crackers.

But we shouldn't change the Florida State Seminoles. That would be retarded.

 

[Taomon]

So don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Who cares?

Well, Native Americans care. The genocide of the tribal people by European settlers and early America is a blight on history. We must atone for what has happened, first by education about it and then by acknowledging it via a month of rememberance.

 

[Taomon]

Or go live on a fucking reservation and pow-wow with the injuns and leave the rest of us alone. Ask Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt to go with you.

No.

 

[Taomon]

Atonement? Are you serious?

Sounds like you've got some serious social issues.

Maybe it would be better if you just put a period on it, and moved the fuck on.

Just a suggestion.............

Social issues? No, I just want the truth at all times and most Americans cannot handle the truth. So you all live in denial of the genocide your forefathers carried out in the name of greed.

 

[Taomon]

I believe you have the right to feel anyway you want. If you wish to view history from a victims standpoint, that is your right. After all you are an American.

I am a Native American. Meaning that I come from Texas. Am I an Indian? I have a drop or two of Cherokee from way, way, waaaaaaaaay back. Guess what, I also have British, Scot, and German blood as well.

While you have the right to your beliefs, you don't have the right to attempt to impose them on others. You, personally, deserve nothing. Your tribe, today, deserves nothing. Your reservations are nothing more than breeding grounds for self pity.

IF you were one of the original Indians conquered by the expanding USA then perhaps you would personally rate something. But, after generations of failing to assimilate into the culture, asking Me to personally atone for something I didn't do is ludicrous.

Here is some heartfelt advice. Get off the reservation and become an American without leaning on a .gov crutch and holding a pity party every November. Instead of expecting people who did no harm to "atone", move beyond the victim mentality and set a positive example for your fellow Americans still unable or unwilling to get off the reservation and make something of themselves.

Finally, since you are part German, are you sending in your "share" of reparations to Israel?

I contend your position is untenable and is based on self pity and a lazy desire to benefit from the misfortunes of your ancestors.

So you feel that educating our children about the truth of genocide in our own history is wrong? Stick with the cartoon version of the pilgrims? Sounds to me like you feel smug about the whole thing.

I didn't say we should pay reparations. I stated that we should teach the truth and make November a month of rememberance. How does that impose on you again?

 

[Dr Grump]

So you feel that educating our children about the truth of genocide in our own history is wrong? Stick with the cartoon version of the pilgrims? Sounds to me like you feel smug about the whole thing.

I didn't say we should pay reparations. I stated that we should teach the truth and make November a month of rememberance. How does that impose on you again?

It doesn't. You are on the money of course...

 

[pegwinn]

So you feel that educating our children about the truth of genocide in our own history is wrong? First. Don't put words in my mouth. For the record, here is your statement and my reply:

My proposal is thus, we should make November a month of remembrance. We should teach our children about what really happened. Fair enough.

Stick with the cartoon version of the pilgrims? Sounds to me like you feel smug about the whole thing. Did I say that? The discussion cannot proceed without both parties being basically honest and not inserting what wasn't said.

I didn't say we should pay reparations. I stated that we should teach the truth and make November a month of rememberance. How does that impose on you again? Go back to the top of this response and re-read as needed.

While you didn't ask for reparations, you would have individuals subsidised by the .gov, then you would have the tribes subsidized by the .gov as well. One via mortgages and the other by redistribution of wealth.

My contention is that the Indians should make an attempt to merge and assimilate via the melting pot. They, as a group, do not have to forget or deny thier heritage anymore than I do. And, they as a group, are no more deserving than I am when it comes to atonement.

 

[Dr Grump]

My contention is that the Indians should make an attempt to merge and assimilate via the melting pot. They, as a group, do not have to forget or deny thier heritage anymore than I do. And, they as a group, are no more deserving than I am when it comes to atonement.

I disagee with you. As Malcolm X said of the pilgrims re negroes (and it is fitting statement re Indians too IMO), they didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on them. Why should they assimilate? It was their land and area. They were invaded remember? We have a document in New Zealand called the Treaty of Waitangi, which was signed in 1840 between the Maori tribes and British crown. It is still a valid document today and we have Waitangi Day as a celebration. Are Maori still at the arse-end of stats in health, education, jail time etc? Yep. But things are changing. What our govt started doing at the beginning of 1990 was compensate tribes for lands that were illegally seized in the 19th century. Some of the tribes have done well out of the money - one Ngai Tahu from the South Island were given $170 million and are now worth about $500 million. Others haven't done so well. The good thing is, the grevience has been settled to both parties' satisfaction (although there have been some dissent from a minority with some tribes, but nothing is perfect). Note I say, these are greviences involving properties that were seized illegally, or by a deliberate attempt to take land under colonial auspices. Fortunately the NZ govt recognise the treaty as a legal and binding document.

Let me ask you this: How many treaties were made by the US govt with Indians? How many were enforced? How many were broken and under what guise by the Govt or Indians? I don't know too much of the history, but there seems to be anecdotal evidence that some of the treaties were ignored or broken if it got in the way of expansion (read, corporate greed)...Your thoughts?

 

[José]

Thanks, Grump

My mild interest in the Maori people was completely satisfied : )

 

[Dr Grump]

Thanks, Grump

My mild interest in the Maori people was completely satisfied : )

My pleasure..

 

[midcan5]

Thanksgiving is symbolic, in a real sense unrelated to what Americans at that time did to the Indians. And I agree completely that history should be taught as objectively as possible. But I would disagree with the elimination of symbolic elements that forge a sense of unity and TG does that.

 

[Taomon]

While you didn't ask for reparations, you would have individuals subsidised by the .gov, then you would have the tribes subsidized by the .gov as well. One via mortgages and the other by redistribution of wealth.

Subsidized? As in reparing decrepid reservations or subsidizing as far as buying affordable houses? Why not allow Native American Indians buy affordable houses? It is the least we can do.

My contention is that the Indians should make an attempt to merge and assimilate via the melting pot. They, as a group, do not have to forget or deny thier heritage anymore than I do. And, they as a group, are no more deserving than I am when it comes to atonement.

I beg to differ. Maybe if your people were massacred and subjugated to an economic prison fraught with bigotry, corruption (inside & out), and American capitalists encrouching on the lands for mining.

Maybe you don't care, but plenty of other people do and my intention is to make those changes.

 

[Gunny]

Subsidized? As in reparing decrepid reservations or subsidizing as far as buying affordable houses? Why not allow Native American Indians buy affordable houses? It is the least we can do.



I beg to differ. Maybe if your people were massacred and subjugated to an economic prison fraught with bigotry, corruption (inside & out), and American capitalists encrouching on the lands for mining.

Maybe you don't care, but plenty of other people do and my intention is to make those changes.

Absurd. What should we do for the people the current indians killed, massacred and drove off the land? Ressurect them and give them free houses?

 

[pegwinn]

I disagee with you.

Fair Enough, the conversation must start somewhere.

As Malcolm X said of the pilgrims re negroes (and it is fitting statement re Indians too IMO), they didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on them.

I am not arguing that injustices did not occur. Anyone with a bit of integrity will readily recognise that bad things happened (and continue to happen) to many groups of people.

Why should they assimilate? It was their land and area. They were invaded remember?

No, I don't remember. I wasn't there. And that sir is the crux. History is immutable. We cannot change the factual occurrences any more than we can predict the future. I doubt that anyone alive today had anything to do with what you are terming the "invasion".

We have a document in New Zealand called the Treaty of Waitangi, which was signed in 1840 between the Maori tribes and British crown. It is still a valid document today and we have Waitangi Day as a celebration. Are Maori still at the arse-end of stats in health, education, jail time etc? Yep. But things are changing.

We can say the same thing about the American Indian tribes.

What our govt started doing at the beginning of 1990 was compensate tribes for lands that were illegally seized in the 19th century. Some of the tribes have done well out of the money - one Ngai Tahu from the South Island were given $170 million and are now worth about $500 million. Others haven't done so well.

Again, some could say the same of the AI tribes. Some have built up and used that land for a purpose. Some remain in squalor because they refuse to stand up as a group and do something.

The good thing is, the grevience has been settled to both parties' satisfaction (although there have been some dissent from a minority with some tribes, but nothing is perfect). Note I say, these are greviences involving properties that were seized illegally, or by a deliberate attempt to take land under colonial auspices. Fortunately the NZ govt recognise the treaty as a legal and binding document.

Let me ask you this: How many treaties were made by the US govt with Indians? How many were enforced? How many were broken and under what guise by the Govt or Indians? I don't know too much of the history, but there seems to be anecdotal evidence that some of the treaties were ignored or broken if it got in the way of expansion (read, corporate greed)...Your thoughts?

ITA that treaties were made and broken on both sides. ITA that in the later years the expansion was a war unto the death. The Indians lost. Yet, instead of enslavement or genocide they were given land. Over time the attitudes have changed. Where AI were once openly told to "get back on the reservation" they are now welcomed into a society that has matured so that those actions are condemned as unlawful and immoral. That same society is also still paying reparations in the form of taxes used to compensate them individually and as a group. Also, out of all the ethnic groups within the USA only the AI and Native Hawaiians are subsidised based on ethnic purity. As I said, I have a wee drop of Cherokee. It isn't enough to garner any .gov money. A Marine I once worked with was 3/4 Seminole (IIRC) and received a check every month. Blacks, subjected to slavery don't get that. Chinese coolie descendants don't get it. Neither do the kids and grand kids of Japanese Americans interred during WWII. The largest actual reservation based on ethnicity is the "forbidden isle" in the Hawaiian Islands.

Subsidized? As in reparing decrepid reservations or subsidizing as far as buying affordable houses? Why not allow Native American Indians buy affordable houses? It is the least we can do.

Affordable houses are fine and there are multiple .gov programs in place to make that happen. I would say that decrepit reservations are the fault of the folks living there. IF your house is falling apart it's the homeowners responsibility. Or, are you saying the Indians are the equivalent of renters and thus not responsible?

I beg to differ. Maybe if your people were massacred and subjugated to an economic prison fraught with bigotry, corruption (inside & out), and American capitalists encrouching on the lands for mining.

Just Curious but how has that effected you personally? I have no issue with making good to the people individually wronged. I doubt that you are one of them. You cannot raise the dead, you cannot change the past, and you cannot hold the son accountable for sins of the father. The best I can do is ensure that I do not repeat history.

Maybe you don't care, but plenty of other people do and my intention is to make those changes.

You are right that I am uncaring about the tribal plights. I am also the guy who believes that you are an American with all the rights, risks, and responsibilities therein. So, since you are an American, feel free to lobby as you wish for the cause of your choice.

But: Are you sending a check to Israel?

 

[William Joyce]

There's no denying that whites killed Indians. Lots of them. But we did, and for hundreds of years, we held this land. That's the way the ball bounces in life. There are winners and losers. I'm just not very moved by appeals for them, though.

Look at America today. Now WHITES are being edged out. We are soon to be minorities in America. Are the Hispanics now taking over going to build museums for us, or give us reservations? I doubt it very much. In other words, if you want me to get all weepy for the Indians and give them all my tax dollars, don't hold your breath.

So screw it. Dish it out, take it, stop the crying. In this world, it's every race for itself. Whites get NO sympathy from anyone, Indians get tons. Boo hoo. I'm sick of whites accepting their position as the world's only evil, and "people of color" as pure good. It's not that simple. I am not advocating cruelty toward other groups, just realism. Blacks, for instance, like to bitch and cry about how we need to help them, but the minute they get the chance, they'd cut us. All of it boils down to taking advantage. Indians went from being fierce warriors to begging us for casino rights. Either way, they're just trying to get something out of us.