http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/05/house-overwhelmingly-votes-to-condemn-uns-anti-israel-res

[flacaltenn]

Well no, Israel would run afoul of the "INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF APARTHEID" and would be subject to the various remedies/sanctions similar to those that were applied to white-ruled South Africa.

There IS no crime of apartheid.. Get off of it. Approximately ZERO% of Palestinians want to have the same citizenship and rights as Israelis. ALSO -- Approximately 90% of Palestinians will riot and insurrect if a "2 state solution is declared dead"..

The decision to be made is whether the Palestinians will recognize that time is running out for ANY kind of Palestine. Can't go another 50 years without ORGANIZATION, representation, and a unified plan for governing.

Ball is TOTALLY in their court. Pummeling Israel is counterproductive and if ISOLATED, they will dig in and IGNORE their "friends" and the continuing FARCE of peace process.

Who is Israel supposed to be negotiating with right now on a "2 state solution"?? You see any problems with the answer to that question??

It's just getting tiresome and annoying to have you blabbering about how this is APARTHEID, when the REAL problems are so obvious..

 

[Slyhunter]

I still think the 3 state solution is the answer.
Egypt, Jordan, and Israel.

 

[flacaltenn]

You want to see "apartheid"??? Go over the bridge to Jordan and visit those 25 yr old Palestinian Refugee Camps. Or to Lebanon where THEIR camps are AT THIS MOMENT --- having prison walls built around them.

 

[flacaltenn]

I still think the 3 state solution is the answer.
Egypt, Jordan, and Israel.

That is actually the key to peace. All THREE of those countries should be involved in permanently settling and assimilating Palestinians.

That's hard to do when Hamas controls Gaza, is blockading any type of Pali leadership agreement. And Egypt and Jordan are not pleased with the potential leadership.

Security of new Pali state SHOULD BE a neighborhood alliance.

 

[montelatici]

Well no, Israel would run afoul of the "INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF APARTHEID" and would be subject to the various remedies/sanctions similar to those that were applied to white-ruled South Africa.

There IS no crime of apartheid.. Get off of it. Approximately ZERO% of Palestinians want to have the same citizenship and rights as Israelis. ALSO -- Approximately 90% of Palestinians will riot and insurrect if a "2 state solution is declared dead"..

The decision to be made is whether the Palestinians will recognize that time is running out for ANY kind of Palestine. Can't go another 50 years without ORGANIZATION, representation, and a unified plan for governing.

Ball is TOTALLY in their court. Pummeling Israel is counterproductive and if ISOLATED, they will dig in and IGNORE their "friends" and the continuing FARCE of peace process.

Who is Israel supposed to be negotiating with right now on a "2 state solution"?? You see any problems with the answer to that question??

It's just getting tiresome and annoying to have you blabbering about how this is APARTHEID, when the REAL problems are so obvious..

Stomping your feet and getting hysterical won't change the facts. As all neutral parties, and many Israelis (e.g. Sharon) themselves, have stated, in a one-state solution, which the settlements make inevitable, Israel can either be democratic and secular or Jewish and an undemocratic Apartheid state. That is just a fact.



Also, making things up doesn't change the facts either.

"Majority of Palestinians want Abbas to resign, no longer support two-state solution"

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...n-no-longer-support-two-state-solution-417792

 

[RoccoR]

Slyhunter, et al,

Yes, this makes much more scene than most of the alternative.

I still think the 3 state solution is the answer.
Egypt, Jordan, and Israel.

(COMMENT)

I think that the major stumbling blocks will be the Arab Palestinian themselves.

Both Jordan and Egypt would probably like that --- if it were not for the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip just chalk full of Jihadist, Deadly Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgent, Radicalized Islamist, and Asymmetric Fighters, that will immediately attempt to destabilize the the parent governments.

There are just too many Arab Palestinians that do not know any other way than to leach-off the dole (UNRWA and the Dysfunctional Government). In fact, Arab Palestinians have now begun second and third generation of the unproductive.

The senior members of the of the various groups and political elements (HAMAS, PIJ, PLO, PA, FATAH, PFLP, etc etc) are going to be hard to pry-up from their exulted chairs. Especially those that have been skimming off the top.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

 

[Shusha]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

Uh, Israel.

 

[flacaltenn]

Well no, Israel would run afoul of the "INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF APARTHEID" and would be subject to the various remedies/sanctions similar to those that were applied to white-ruled South Africa.

There IS no crime of apartheid.. Get off of it. Approximately ZERO% of Palestinians want to have the same citizenship and rights as Israelis. ALSO -- Approximately 90% of Palestinians will riot and insurrect if a "2 state solution is declared dead"..

The decision to be made is whether the Palestinians will recognize that time is running out for ANY kind of Palestine. Can't go another 50 years without ORGANIZATION, representation, and a unified plan for governing.

Ball is TOTALLY in their court. Pummeling Israel is counterproductive and if ISOLATED, they will dig in and IGNORE their "friends" and the continuing FARCE of peace process.

Who is Israel supposed to be negotiating with right now on a "2 state solution"?? You see any problems with the answer to that question??

It's just getting tiresome and annoying to have you blabbering about how this is APARTHEID, when the REAL problems are so obvious..

Stomping your feet and getting hysterical won't change the facts. As all neutral parties, and many Israelis (e.g. Sharon) themselves, have stated, in a one-state solution, which the settlements make inevitable, Israel can either be democratic and secular or Jewish and an undemocratic Apartheid state. That is just a fact.



Also, making things up doesn't change the facts either.

"Majority of Palestinians want Abbas to resign, no longer support two-state solution"

Poll: Majority of Palestinians want Abbas to resign, no longer support two-state solution

Apparently even the Chief Palestinian negotiator Montelatici could not answer the simple question of who Israel was supposed to negotiate with as a peace partner. You maintain this naive and evangelistic view that there IS a "one state solution". That the Holy Land is gonna return to the nebulous void of power that it was 200 years ago. With essentially NO sovereign govt and a collection of city states and tribal rule with Arabs, Jews, and Christian "sharing" the area in peace and harmony.

NO place on planet Earth is going back to those arrangements in the 21st Century.

And you con yourself into interpreting those Pali polls as supporting your "dream solution". They don't. When a Pali is now confronted with a biased choice of "one or two" states --- answering ONE -- at best means they want a Muslim friendly dominant govt. At worst it means EXPULSION or GENOCIDE of Israelis.

Because MODERATE govt has failed so dramatically and quickly. They now choose the unrealistic and violent goal of removing the Israelis from "their land". Their votes will reflect that. NOT BY WIDE margins, but by enough in any Democratic process.

That's why a Pali state has to be created FOR them. By the neighborhood. With all means of incentives to go back to moderate and peaceful ambitions..

 

[flacaltenn]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

They don't value democratic institutions. We shouldn't force them to. So "govt" is not gonna happen. But that doesn't excuse them from creating a Pali Zionist movement. One that is prepared and AUTHORIZED to represent their interests in negotiations. I personally don't care HOW that happens. Civil war (again), Camel races, stone throwing, Koran quoting contests --- whatever the fuck they want to do.

But it's got to be done VERY soon... Or it will be decided for them..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Apparently even the Chief Palestinian negotiator Montelatici could not answer the simple question of who Israel was supposed to negotiate with as a peace partner.

He was thinking about the old fart crowd of oligarchs who have ceased representing the Palestinians decades ago.

Also, making things up doesn't change the facts either.

"Majority of Palestinians want Abbas to resign, no longer support two-state solution"

 

[Hollie]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

Interesting question about "government". It's a bit of a stretch to apply that term to the competing franchises of Islamic Terrorism Intl., Inc in Gaza and the West Bank. I suspect that most folks envision the role of responsible government as a public trust that will provide safety and security for the governed, will attend to civil affairs, provide community services, promote the well being of those governed, etc.

Those attributes simply don't apply to the competing Islamic terrorist organizations in the Arab-Moslem dystopias of Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

Interesting question about "government". It's a bit of a stretch to apply that term to the competing franchises of Islamic Terrorism Intl., Inc in Gaza and the West Bank. I suspect that most folks envision the role of responsible government as a public trust that will provide safety and security for the governed, will attend to civil affairs, provide community services, promote the well being of those governed, etc.

Those attributes simply don't apply to the competing Islamic terrorist organizations in the Arab-Moslem dystopias of Gaza and the West Bank.

The so called Palestinian Authority was imposed on the Palestinians at the point of a gun

 

[flacaltenn]

Apparently even the Chief Palestinian negotiator Montelatici could not answer the simple question of who Israel was supposed to negotiate with as a peace partner.

He was thinking about the old fart crowd of oligarchs who have ceased representing the Palestinians decades ago.

Also, making things up doesn't change the facts either.

"Majority of Palestinians want Abbas to resign, no longer support two-state solution"

Exactly.. That is a NATURAL state of organization for the people of that region. They have NEVER been united under a common set of rules, laws or representation. That's their burden. Because no one in the MODERN age GETS a new nation without those things.

And I find it incredible to hear that Israel is the "lawless state" when the people who are supposed to be their "peace partners" completely SHUN the application of rules and laws and delegation of authority.

Palestine today is nothing more than it was 200 years ago. A set of city states. With a character difference as you go from Nablus to Hebron to wherever that is CULTURALLY SHOCKING.. Some of those major cities are damn near "western secular" and others are back in the 200AD period.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Exactly.. That is a NATURAL state of organization for the people of that region. They have NEVER been united under a common set of rules, laws or representation.

Indeed, it is the US that imposed that government. That government is the root of the Palestinian division.

 

[flacaltenn]

Exactly.. That is a NATURAL state of organization for the people of that region. They have NEVER been united under a common set of rules, laws or representation.

Indeed, it is the US that imposed that government. That government is the root of the Palestinian division.

The US imposed no govt on the Palis. They did however DEMAND elections.. In the old thinking of "everyone should be like us" -- we botched the process of "selecting" Pali Leadership. Took a lot of civil war to UNDO the results of an "election"..

 

[Roudy]

Israel should just keep doing what it's doing. As we can see, the climate in Washington will be much more favorable after Jan 20.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Exactly.. That is a NATURAL state of organization for the people of that region. They have NEVER been united under a common set of rules, laws or representation.

Indeed, it is the US that imposed that government. That government is the root of the Palestinian division.

The US imposed no govt on the Palis. They did however DEMAND elections.. In the old thinking of "everyone should be like us" -- we botched the process of "selecting" Pali Leadership. Took a lot of civil war to UNDO the results of an "election"..

It was in the news all over the place. You must have missed it.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Germany and Japan. During the occupation of both, the stability that resulted in a cooperative effort with the occupation population (the Arab Palestinians never cooperated on any political matter relative to nation building) created the most powerful industrial power in all of Europe. The Allied Powers were able to stabilize German much quicker and to a self-sufficient degree that, the period of Occupation was significantly reduced. The destruction Germany suffered by the end of the War, was many, many more times devistating than anything the former territory to which the Mandate applied experienced.

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

(COMMENT)
The Occupation by the Allied Powers was many more time invasive in Germany then was that endured by the Arab Palestinians. For example in the British Zone of Occupation, the German State of Hamberg was re-established; as well as the German states of Schleswig-Holstein was created. I arrived on my first European CI Assignment two days after the Red Army Faction -/- Baader-Meinhof Gang bombed the Rotunda Area of V Corps HQ in the IG Farben Building. That was 1976, and we were still there (V Corps and VII Corps).

​

In terms of growth, you can see just how well the two formerly occupied territories did. There are special circumstances for the accelerated rise for Japan. But for having suffering huge fire bombing raids and to cities complete destroyed, they furnished as well.

Since the start of the Group of Six Countries (1974, initial meeting in 1975) or G6 Nations (now G20) the first members were the US, UK, France, Germany, Japan and Italy. You can see that Germany and Japan were well established and leaders in the community of Industrialized Nations. While it would have been unreasonable to expect the same degree of success in the Middle East, they could have accelerated well. But it wasn't in the nature of the Arabs in the surrounding territories to Israel, to work that hard. Nor was it in the character to cooperation on Nation Building enterprises that were popular at the time. However, the Jewish Agency did capitalize on the potential and did economically, Industrially, and scientifically benefit as a result; just as Germany and Japan did.

Allied-occupied Germany

Military governors and commissioners
American Zone
Military governors

May 8, 1945 – November 10, 1945 Dwight D. EisenhowerNovember 11, 1945 – November 25, 1945 George S. Patton (acting)
November 26, 1945 – January 5, 1947
Joseph T. McNarney January 6,
1947 – May 14, 1949 Lucius D. Clay
May 15, 1949 – September 1, 1949 Clarence R. Huebner (acting)​

High commissioners

1. 
   
   
   • September 2, 1949 – August 1, 1952 John J. McCloy
   • August 1, 1952 – December 11, 1952 Walter J. Donnelly
   • December 11, 1952 – February 10, 1953 Samuel Reber (acting)
   • February 10, 1953 – May 5, 1955 James Bryant Conant

British Zone
Military governors

1. 
   
   
   • May 22, 1945 – April 30, 1946 Field Marshal the Viscount Montgomery
   • May 1, 1946 – October 31, 1947 Air Chief Marshal Sir William Sholto Douglas (later Lord Douglas)
   • November 1, 1947 – September 21, 1949 General Sir Brian Hubert Robertson (later Lord Robertson)

High commissioners

1. 
   
   
   • September 21, 1949 – June 24, 1950 General Sir Brian Hubert Robertson
   • June 24, 1950 – September 29, 1953 Sir Ivone Kirkpatrick
   • September 29, 1953 – May 5, 1955 Sir Frederick Hoyer Millar (later Lord Inchyra)

French Zone
Military commander
May 1945 – July 1945 Army General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny
Military governor
July 1945 – September 21, 1949 Army General Marie Pierre Kœnig
High commissioner
September 21, 1949 – May 5, 1955 André François-Poncet
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

Rocco, do you have an example of a "government" that was "functional" while the land and people it was supposed to be governing were under foreign military occupation?

Interesting question about "government". It's a bit of a stretch to apply that term to the competing franchises of Islamic Terrorism Intl., Inc in Gaza and the West Bank. I suspect that most folks envision the role of responsible government as a public trust that will provide safety and security for the governed, will attend to civil affairs, provide community services, promote the well being of those governed, etc.

Those attributes simply don't apply to the competing Islamic terrorist organizations in the Arab-Moslem dystopias of Gaza and the West Bank.

The so called Palestinian Authority was imposed on the Palestinians at the point of a gun

Yes, yes. You float that conspiracy theory whenever you get a chance.