How Ukraine Annexed Crimea.

[Comrade Johnson]

Actually, I can't say who is right and who is wrong in the crisis. But there's no doubt that the policy of the new Ukrainian government was quite stupid.

and self-destructive too. Because they're not doing what's good for the Ukrainian people

They overreacted. The Ukrainian people had no problem with electing ethnic Russians into the government. They elected an ethnic Russian as their leader. Yanukovych was the leader they ousted when he ended an agreement that promoted EU as the main trading partners and switched to an agreement to make Russia the main trading partner. This caused the population to flood into the capital in protest. Hundreds of thousand turned out and it lasted for months, eventually leading to Yanukovych's ouster. It also caused an environment of pro-Ukrainian nationalism and the pro-nationalist to gain power and influence, hence, the overreaction.

Yanukovich was just a theif. And the main mistake of the Kremlin was their support for him.
The main mistake of the new Kiev guys were trying to ban the Russian language. Well, all of them are from the one place - the Communist Party.

 

[Camp]

Actually, I can't say who is right and who is wrong in the crisis. But there's no doubt that the policy of the new Ukrainian government was quite stupid.

and self-destructive too. Because they're not doing what's good for the Ukrainian people

They overreacted. The Ukrainian people had no problem with electing ethnic Russians into the government. They elected an ethnic Russian as their leader. Yanukovych was the leader they ousted when he ended an agreement that promoted EU as the main trading partners and switched to an agreement to make Russia the main trading partner. This caused the population to flood into the capital in protest. Hundreds of thousand turned out and it lasted for months, eventually leading to Yanukovych's ouster. It also caused an environment of pro-Ukrainian nationalism and the pro-nationalist to gain power and influence, hence, the overreaction.

Yanukovich was just a theif. And the main mistake of the Kremlin was their support for him.
The main mistake of the new Kiev guys were trying to ban the Russian language. Well, all of them are from the one place - the Communist Party.

Yes, that was a dumb overreaction. Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian. Not to make excuses, but a major effort by Russia colonization in eastern Europe was to make the Russian language official and to teach it in schools. Many east Europeans are angered because so many of their citizens use Russian instead of their native language.

 

[Tehon]

Tehon, sorry, are you able to read, my friend? I am not good in Ukrainian but even I can read it:

Відновити Кримську Автономну Радянську
Соціалістичну Республіку в межах території Кримської області в
складі Української РСР.

as a part of the Ukrainian Republic.
So please, don't mislead our American friends

The Ukrainian SSR. That Republic dissolved subsequent to Crimean independence. It's not that difficult to understand, is it.

 

[Comrade Johnson]

The Ukrainian SSR. That Republic dissolved subsequent to Crimean independence. It's not that difficult to understand, is it.

Just playing on words. Soviet, Socialist... All of it might be a base for a claim for independence, but it's another thing. There were no official acts about the independence of the Crimea. It was an autonomy, but as a part of Ukraine.

 

[Tehon]

The Treaty.ian SSR. That Republic dissolved subsequent to Crimean independence. It's not that difficult to understand, is it.

Just playing on words. Soviet, Socialist... All of it might be a base for a claim for independence, but it's another thing. There were no official acts about the independence of the Crimea. It was an autonomy, but as a part of Ukraine.

The point is that Crimea voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to re-establish the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty.

No where did they vote to remain connected to Ukraine.

Americans of all people should be respectful of Crimean wishes to dissolve their political bands with Ukraine. It is the same principle that founded this country.

 

[Comrade Johnson]

No where did they vote to remain connected to Ukraine.

There's no need for voting to remain connected for any parts of any country.
If they wanted independence that time they should vote for it and then declare an official decision.
I can say that Kaliningradskay oblast (former Prussia) is not a part of Russia since they didn't vote to remain connected and Russia annexed them in 1991. It's just empty words.

And could you show me any international laws on it? Do you know that for any claims for independence in Russia you can get up to 5 years of prison? What are international laws on it?

 

[Comrade Johnson]

[
Americans of all people should be respectful of Crimean wishes to dissolve their political bands with Ukraine. It is the same principle that founded this country.

Any territory of any country belongs to all people of this country, not to the citizens of this part only. That's why no country in the word allows such referendums. Again for trying to organize such refrendum in Russia you'll go in prison. And that's why almost nobody recognizes the re-union Crimea with Russia. Kosovo's independence also broke internatinal laws, but many countries have double standards.

 

[Tehon]

No where did they vote to remain connected to Ukraine.

There's no need for voting to remain connected for any parts of any country.
If they wanted independence that time they should vote for it and then declare an official decision.
I can say that Kaliningradskay oblast (former Prussia) is not a part of Russia since they didn't vote to remain connected and Russia annexed them in 1991. It's just empty words.

And could you show me any international laws on it? Do you know that for any claims for independence in Russia you can get up to 5 years of prison? What are international laws on it?

Self determination (international law)

 

[Comrade Johnson]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

 

[Tehon]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

I concede to your point. I believe Crimea has been denied justice based on principles of international law. To say that international laws have been grossly violated in regards to Crimea is an overstatement.

 

[Camp]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

 

[Tehon]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

 

[Camp]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

 

[Tehon]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

I don't understand your purpose in highlighting Western hypocrisy. The principle of self determination is the same.

 

[Camp]

[
Self determination (international law)

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

I don't understand your purpose in highlighting Western hypocrisy. The principle of self determination is the same.

The countries refusing to recognize Crimea are not all western nations. China abstained from voting in the UN Security Council. There are 192 member nations in the UN. 114 gave independent recognition to Kosovo. Only four member nations gave recognition to Crimea.

 

[Tehon]

Just a statement, nothing else.
They wrote there:
Independence of Abhkazia (from Georgia)
How many countries did recognize it?

Independence of Kosovo (from Serbia)
Do Russia or Serbia recongize it?

Every time you need a legal procedure, in that case we can something about 'laws'.

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

I don't understand your purpose in highlighting Western hypocrisy. The principle of self determination is the same.

The countries refusing to recognize Crimea are not all western nations. China abstained from voting in the UN Security Council. There are 192 member nations in the UN. 114 gave independent recognition to Kosovo. Only four member nations gave recognition to Crimea.

China opposed the secession of Kosovo as well. They hold fast to upholding the integrity of sovereign states. No hypocrisy there.

 

[Camp]

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

I don't understand your purpose in highlighting Western hypocrisy. The principle of self determination is the same.

The countries refusing to recognize Crimea are not all western nations. China abstained from voting in the UN Security Council. There are 192 member nations in the UN. 114 gave independent recognition to Kosovo. Only four member nations gave recognition to Crimea.

China opposed the secession of Kosovo as well. They hold fast to upholding the integrity of sovereign states. No hypocrisy there.

I agree, no hypocrisy from China on this particular issue, but it still means the world has not embraced or even accepted the annexation of Crimea to Russia. The election in Crimea was not judged by the world, to be honest, legal or legitimate. Legally and technically, Crimea is still part of Ukraine.
It does not appear apparent what your argument is other than you disagree with the stance taken by the international community about the legitimacy of the election and recognition of the legitimacy of Crimea.

 

[Tehon]

The principle of self determination is the same. The rest is just politics.

Politics international law and protocols. Any member of the UN Security Council can block a nation, no matter how it was formed, from becoming a member nation, so membership in the UN is political. That leaves the number of nations who actually recognize a nation's legitimacy as the only reasonable assessment of the nation's legitimacy. One could argue that a nation not accepted into the UN is not legally considered a nation, but because the UN process is political, the UN process can also be discounted and replaced with the process of numbers of other nations who accept the nation's legitimacy. Technically, none of the nations being discussed are internationally considered legitimate without membership in the UN or other recognized international entities.

I don't understand your purpose in highlighting Western hypocrisy. The principle of self determination is the same.

The countries refusing to recognize Crimea are not all western nations. China abstained from voting in the UN Security Council. There are 192 member nations in the UN. 114 gave independent recognition to Kosovo. Only four member nations gave recognition to Crimea.

China opposed the secession of Kosovo as well. They hold fast to upholding the integrity of sovereign states. No hypocrisy there.

I agree, no hypocrisy from China on this particular issue, but it still means the world has not embraced or even accepted the annexation of Crimea to Russia. The election in Crimea was not judged by the world, to be honest, legal or legitimate. Legally and technically, Crimea is still part of Ukraine.
It does not appear apparent what your argument is other than you disagree with the stance taken by the international community about the legitimacy of the election and recognition of the legitimacy of Crimea.

My contention is that the rights of the Crimean population are not being given due consideration in all of this. They have repeatedly over the course of 25 years expressed a will to separate themselves from Ukraine. The have finally achieved the results they were looking for, born out of the failure of US policy, but so be it.

 

[Comrade Johnson]

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

Yes, sure, and as for Kosovo Russia was the country which protested against it louder than anybody else. So by Tehon's logic Russia is against the international laws...

 

[Tehon]

Those two states are hard to compare. Abkhazia js only recognized by a handful of nations, like Crimea, perhaps 7. Kosovo is recognized by over 100, perhaps 114.

Yes, sure, and as for Kosovo Russia was the country which protested against it louder than anybody else. So by Tehon's logic Russia is against the international laws...

The ICJ found that Kosovo's declaration of independence didn't violate international laws. Tehon's logic withstands that test!

The Russians protested that it would set a precedent that would come back and slap the West in the face. Indeed!