How Much Violence Justifies Use of Lethal Force in Self Defense?

[JimBowie1958]

Hypothetical case: a woman is leaving her 'boyfriend' and he wants her to stay and talk more. He does not know that she is armed with a gun, and he tries to manhandle her.

How bad does his 'manhandling' have to get before she is justified in shooting him dead?

I ask this because I have seen a wide range of attitudes toward what is considered threatening. For example I have seen people arrested for 'kidnapping' when they merely took a person gently by the arm and asked them to stay. Another case a guy was arrested for using harsh language under 'verbal assault' laws. Another time a man was arrested for assault when he pushed his exiting wife on the shoulder.

But I have read of some counter examples where a woman was charged with murder when the boyfriend slapped her hard and another where he woke the girl and was standing at the foot of her bed holding a bayonette and had broken into the house in the middle of the night and had told friends he would kill her.

Somehow, it seems as if the definition of what constitutes threatening violence depends on if the woman defends herself or not. If she doesnt then the guy can be arrested for brathing out the wrong side of his nose, but if she does defend herself then she basically has to prove her innosence in an inversion of the presumption of guilt.

But, nah, it cant possibly be that our justice system wants women to be weak and at the mercy of violent boyfriends, right? So I thought I would ask the folks here, many of whom seem fairly knowledgable about the law.

Personally, I feel that the attacker has to be doing something that might cause a loss of life. IF a guy about my size or less punches me in the face and then we have a fist fight, that is not lethal and deadly force not justifiable. But if he is much taller and more fit than I am or he is with a group of guys and he/they have threatened my life then I think deadly force is justified.

At any rate, that is when I am calm and sitting behind a computer keyboard. I dont know what I might actually do if I were to actually be in such a situation. If a dude sucker punched me so hard I could barely collect my thoughts and he persisted in hitting me and I had no practical chance to defend myself from his blows, then I would probably shoot him and take my chances with the justus system.

 

[Sallow]

Man vs. woman is kind of a different story. Men are much more powerful then women..that's just biology. And part of the theory behind the SYG laws was to empower women against abusive men. Of course that was just lip service. Because when it actually happened..

Fla. woman Marissa Alexander gets 20 years for "warning shot": Did she stand her ground? - Crimesider - CBS News

She didn't actually kill anyone. And this is in the same state that almost let a man go for killing someone under the very same statute.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Man vs. woman is kind of a different story. Men are much more powerful then women..that's just biology. And part of the theory behind the SYG laws was to empower women against abusive men.

The law should be blind to gender, but unfortunately in this leftwing ideological nnutball society we live in today, that is not even an ideal goal any more.

Difference in height and weight and strength are legitimate factors, but gender is not, IMO, not if we are trying to h ave a gender neutral legal system.

Of course that was just lip service. Because when it actually happened..

Fla. woman Marissa Alexander gets 20 years for "warning shot": Did she stand her ground? - Crimesider - CBS News

She didn't actually kill anyone. And this is in the same state that almost let a man go for killing someone under the very same statute.

That is outrageous bullshit. That woman had every right to fire a warning shot if you look at it with common sense.

OF course Angela Corey prosecuted that case as well as GZ. Apparently Corey thinks any use of violence or threat of violence is prosecutable. In her mind one is only legal if one is a victim, or so it seems to me.

 

[Sallow]

That is outrageous bullshit. That woman had every right to fire a warning shot if you look at it with common sense.
.

100% agreed.

 

[GodSaveAmerica]

It really is dependent on a host of cirucumstantial factors, every threatening situation is unique, so it boils down to exercising one's personal judgment to do the right thing in the moment.

 

[tjvh]

That is outrageous bullshit. That woman had every right to fire a warning shot if you look at it with common sense.
.

100% agreed.

And it's "common sense" if that "warning shot" strikes the neighbor's house and kills their poor little innocent child? 100% disagree. In self defense... You don't fire a gun to "warn", you fire one to "kill".

 

[signelect]

When you violate my space the rights you have are the rights I choose to let you have, whether it is hitting me or breaking into my house. Your mistake was picking a fight with someone you don't know, in my case be very careful. I agree with a lot of you, if you want to warn someone blow a whistle, when you use a gun it is to end the disscussion.

 

[George Costanza]

How bad does his 'manhandling' have to get before she is justified in shooting him dead?

To a point where a reasonable person in the position of the woman would be justified in believing that the force being used against her was in fact deadly. It is an objective standard, not subjective. To put it another way, someone in the woman's position would have to feel that she was about to lose her life and, in order to save it, she had to shoot the attacker dead. Once again, an objective standard, not subjective.

 

[Katzndogz]

Shoot them dead, then double tap to the head. Then argue about rights.

 

[Ernie S.]

We don't worry about that shit in Alabama.

Alabama Stand Your Ground – Castle Doctrine Law


Alabama is a Castle Doctrine state and has a Stand Your Ground law. Below is the exact Alabama law.

Section 13A-3-23
Use of force in defense of a person.
(a) A person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he or she may use a degree of force which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (4), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:
(1) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force.
(2) Using or about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling while committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling.
(3) Committing or about to commit a kidnapping in any degree, assault in the first or second degree, burglary in any degree, robbery in any degree, forcible rape, or forcible sodomy.
(4) In the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is in the process of sabotaging or attempting to sabotage a federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is attempting to remove, or has forcefully removed, a person against his or her will from any dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle when the person has a legal right to be there, and provided that the person using the deadly physical force knows or has reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act is occurring. The legal presumption that a person using deadly physical force is justified to do so pursuant to this subdivision does not apply if:

 

[Two Thumbs]

Depends on the state.

In some places you can take a real good slapping around before you can shoot.

In others, you just need to think you needed too.

for me, you can shake a woman, MAX. But you raise a hand? You better be faster than her trigger finger.





just to be clear, the only females I've ever shaken were my daughters, as part of playing.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Better to be judged by 12 of your peirs than carried by 6 of your freinds.

 

[George Costanza]

Better to be judged by 12 of your peirs than carried by 6 of your freinds.

I would never allow myself to be judged by a pier - all those barnacles and creosote-soaked pilings. They wouldn't be able to think straight. I would much rather be judged by a peer.

(No offense Two - all in fun. Just couldn't resist.)

 

[Contumacious]

How Much Violence Justifies Use of Lethal Force in Self Defense?

Is not the amount of lethal force that is a factor but whether or not the perpetrator is , or about to , engaged in a criminal act.


Texas

In 2005 Texas passed House Bill 94[32] which created an exception for unlawful entry of place of residence to a 1973 statute, which required a person to retreat in the face of a criminal attack unless a "reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated".[33]

In 2007 Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 378 which extends a person’s right to stand their ground beyond the home to vehicles and workplaces, allowing the reasonable use of deadly force when an intruder is:

Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes;
Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place; or
Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.[13]

Senate Bill 378, made effective September 1, 2007, also "abolishes the duty to retreat if the defendant can show he: (1) had a right to be present at the location where deadly force was used; (2) did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used; and (3) was not engaged in criminal activity at the time deadly force was used."[34]
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How bad does his 'manhandling' have to get before she is justified in shooting him dead?

To a point where a reasonable person in the position of the woman would be justified in believing that the force being used against her was in fact deadly. It is an objective standard, not subjective. To put it another way, someone in the woman's position would have to feel that she was about to lose her life and, in order to save it, she had to shoot the attacker dead. Once again, an objective standard, not subjective.

'About to lose her life' is a gray scale.

If he had punched her in the head, would that have been a lethal threat? Many people have been killed with one punch.

A slap might not kill you in and of itself, but if delivered hard enough, it could bounce your head off a hard wall, or into a pointy edge of a counter, etc. Even a slap can be deadly.

What amazes me are the people who think that they can sit behind a desk in their office attire and judge whether a person who has been abused by the same man for years is truly in danger or not. If that isnt arrogance of legendary proportions I dont know what would be.

Me personally, a slap is just going to get me mad and resoleved to not let things get any more violent. If they do not heed my warning then fuck it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Depends on the state.

In some places you can take a real good slapping around before you can shoot.

In others, you just need to think you needed too.

for me, you can shake a woman, MAX. But you raise a hand? You better be faster than her trigger finger.





just to be clear, the only females I've ever shaken were my daughters, as part of playing.

If a woman wants to be treated like a lady she needs to act like a lady.

Any woman that punches or slaps me will get the same returned to her in kind.

Equal rights, beotchezzz!

 

[JimBowie1958]

That is outrageous bullshit. That woman had every right to fire a warning shot if you look at it with common sense.
.

100% agreed.

And it's "common sense" if that "warning shot" strikes the neighbor's house and kills their poor little innocent child? 100% disagree. In self defense... You don't fire a gun to "warn", you fire one to "kill".

1. No one got killed with her warning shot so that is not relevant. Hell the cops and hospitals kille more people through ineptness and incompetence each year than accidental deaths with a gun in the hands of every day citizens.

2. I agree that warning shots are unwise. While you shoot away from the perp, he is aiming at YOU. Muzzle blast constitutes adequate warning to any asshole that deserves it.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Better to be judged by 12 of your peirs than carried by 6 of your freinds.

I would never allow myself to be judged by a pier - all those barnacles and creosote-soaked pilings. They wouldn't be able to think straight. I would much rather be judged by a peer.

(No offense Two - all in fun. Just couldn't resist.)

Time for a keel hauling/

No offense.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Depends on the state.

In some places you can take a real good slapping around before you can shoot.

In others, you just need to think you needed too.

for me, you can shake a woman, MAX. But you raise a hand? You better be faster than her trigger finger.





just to be clear, the only females I've ever shaken were my daughters, as part of playing.

If a woman wants to be treated like a lady she needs to act like a lady.

Any woman that punches or slaps me will get the same returned to her in kind.

Equal rights, beotchezzz!

yeeaahhh

If you can't take a hit from a woman.....

 

[Douger]

Depends on the state.

In some places you can take a real good slapping around before you can shoot.

In others, you just need to think you needed too.

for me, you can shake a woman, MAX. But you raise a hand? You better be faster than her trigger finger.





just to be clear, the only females I've ever shaken were my daughters, as part of playing.

If a woman wants to be treated like a lady she needs to act like a lady.

Any woman that punches or slaps me will get the same returned to her in kind.

Equal rights, beotchezzz!

yeeaahhh

If you can't take a hit from a woman.....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnpjkrX9i2g]Laila Ali vs. Christy Martin by Fit-Box.com - YouTube[/ame]