How much should health care cost? Should it cost anything?

[RDD_1210]

I think a sift a week out of them is reasonable to ask at some free clinic. The rest of the time they can work and pay off their loan.

Why should they have to work for free at all, especially if you don't feel that you should be helping out?

Why do you think she MUST help? Why is your bleeding heart connected to her bank account?

You forget yourself. It's not your money. It's not THEIR money. It's HER money, and she can do with it as she pleases.

Why aren't you giving every penny you have to someone else if you feel so strongly? Oh that's right, because it's easier and more profitable to steal from many others than pony up your own dough.

I'm not the one who suggested that Doctors work for free. What's your point exactly?

 

[Big Fitz]

That's what you don't seem to be getting. I pay for insurance coverage which means I already do pay for the healthcare of everyone who can't afford it. This is obviously going right over your head.

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Come the fuck on! let's not be TOTALLY intellectually disingenuous. Deadbeats raise the cost of healthcare. And since Medicare has a tendancy to pay less than private insurance, they're even bigger deadbeats than the insurance industry you seem to have a strong distaste for.

So those people that don't have health insurance are paying for chemo and bypass surgery through payment plans? lol.

I'm paying right now for over 6000 in tests forced on me by the state in payment plans.

It's very possible that it can be paid for as well the same way. But if you want to try and play triviality search, do that on your own damn time with someone who gives a fuck. The exceptions do not invalidate the rule.

 

[RDD_1210]

And i feel you are the one with the severely flawed 'logic"

So can i send you my medical bills and call it a day? I want someone to pay for my medical bills to ya know. Since you think its such a great idea to pay for others out of your pocket, how about you start to practice what you preach.

That's what you don't seem to be getting. I pay for insurance coverage which means I already do pay for the healthcare of everyone who can't afford it. This is obviously going right over your head.

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Wait, so you don't have health insurance? Do I have that right?

 

[syrenn]

I think a sift a week out of them is reasonable to ask at some free clinic. The rest of the time they can work and pay off their loan.

Why should they have to work for free at all, especially if you don't feel that you should be helping out?

Why do you think she MUST help? Why is your bleeding heart connected to her bank account?

You forget yourself. It's not your money. It's not THEIR money. It's HER money, and she can do with it as she pleases.

Why aren't you giving every penny you have to someone else if you feel so strongly? Oh that's right, because it's easier and more profitable to steal from many others than pony up your own dough.

Heh, i asked him a few posts back if i could send him my medical bills so that he could pay them out of his pocket. Shocker, no response.

 

[Big Fitz]

LOL, what does that prove? He has more money than 99.9% of Americans. Good for him.

That's right. Good for him. But under Obamacare he would be forced to buy a product he neither needs or wants or be subject to legal action.

How ethical is that? He's providing no burden to the medical industry now and suddenly he must?

Fucking stupid is what that is.

So you're complaining about the mandate because Rush Limbaugh shouldn't have to buy insurance since he can afford to go without it? Seriously??? lol.

I'm resisting because it is unconstitutional and pisses me off that if I refuse I can be JAILED for not buying health insurance I can't afford either in increased taxes, which is inevitable, or reduced cash flow. There are far better ways that have been put up here than Obamacare that are far cheaper and starve government power.

But we all really know that's what you really want: Total government control from cradle to grave... as long as it's not YOUR grave or anyone elses you care about.

 

[Big Fitz]

That's what you don't seem to be getting. I pay for insurance coverage which means I already do pay for the healthcare of everyone who can't afford it. This is obviously going right over your head.

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Wait, so you don't have health insurance? Do I have that right?

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't, but that's correct I don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Oh, and just as an elaboration, I was informed that all but the most highly priced insurance plans covered the tests I was forced, by law, to take to continue working. So even with an insurance plan I could have afforded, they wouldn't have been covered either.

 

[syrenn]

Just remember, Rush Limbaugh himself admits he does not pay for health insurance. He pays cash too just like us sad uninsured poor people.

LOL, what does that prove? He has more money than 99.9% of Americans. Good for him.

That's right. Good for him. But under Obamacare he would be forced to buy a product he neither needs or wants or be subject to legal action.

How ethical is that? He's providing no burden to the medical industry now and suddenly he must?

Fucking stupid is what that is.

The point is he doesn't need or want it. BUT the ones who are not paying for shit need and want his money.

 

[RDD_1210]

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Come the fuck on! let's not be TOTALLY intellectually disingenuous. Deadbeats raise the cost of healthcare. And since Medicare has a tendancy to pay less than private insurance, they're even bigger deadbeats than the insurance industry you seem to have a strong distaste for.

So those people that don't have health insurance are paying for chemo and bypass surgery through payment plans? lol.

I'm paying right now for over 6000 in tests forced on me by the state in payment plans.

It's very possible that it can be paid for as well the same way. But if you want to try and play triviality search, do that on your own damn time with someone who gives a fuck. The exceptions do not invalidate the rule.

Ohhh, so if you need a payment plan to pay off $6000 how the hell are you going to pay off a 100k+ or very often much more in medical bills? Payment plan until you're 250 years old? LMAO!!!

 

[Bern80]

And you still seem to think that the only people who don't have healthcare coverage are people who just aren't working hard enough.

Some don't by choice. Others don't due to a lack of money. Those are teh people we are trying to help. Why don't these people have money? Everyone who doesn't have money bares at least some responsibility for not having money. You can not change what you don't acknowledge. You can not become wealthy until you identify your role in why you're not wealthy. That is the quintessential problem with you liberals. Your situation is NEVER your fault. Its always someone else and thus always someone elses job to fix it for you.

You don't get it. I want those people to have health care too. The difference between the two of us, even though we agreed your health care should be your financial responsibility is that your advocating of Obamacare and these subsidized insurance plans is a further disinsentive for people to do exactly that. You're basically telling peope, just show us you're poor enough and we'll get someone else to pay for it. Well if I'm poor and my goal is to get myself some health care coverage, what course of action am I likely to take. The most efficient one of course which under your plan is to do basically nothing.

 

[syrenn]

That's what you don't seem to be getting. I pay for insurance coverage which means I already do pay for the healthcare of everyone who can't afford it. This is obviously going right over your head.

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Come the fuck on! let's not be TOTALLY intellectually disingenuous. Deadbeats raise the cost of healthcare. And since Medicare has a tendancy to pay less than private insurance, they're even bigger deadbeats than the insurance industry you seem to have a strong distaste for.

So those people that don't have health insurance are paying for chemo and bypass surgery through payment plans? lol.

No, i am paying for it. Just as i would be paying for it under obama care. So nothing changes. I pay for those that don't.

 

[RDD_1210]

And those of us who don't have health insurance and have to pay cash out of our own pockets or by payment plan don't???

Wait, so you don't have health insurance? Do I have that right?

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

 

[syrenn]

Wait, so you don't have health insurance? Do I have that right?

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

The irony is that he is not siding with you in wanting something for nothing.

The irony is that he is still saying that if you want something...pay for it.

 

[Big Fitz]

Wait, so you don't have health insurance? Do I have that right?

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

wait... you are thinking that's some sort of victory of the debate?

Jesus you're a fucking retard.

What the hell do you think you've 'won'? The fact that I'm going to be forced onto Obamacare? oh that REALLY proves your point nimrod.

You know what's stopping me from buying my own health insurance right now?

State MANDATES! I have to get depression coverage, and rosacea coverage, and pregancy coverage (nice seeing I'm a guy), and abortion coverage, and port-wine stain removal coverage, and substance abuse treatment coverage.

over 100 mandated required coverages that I DON"T NEED, dumbass! And that raises the price. Then they limit the pool of companies I can choose from since you can't sell insurance across state lines, OR go 'a la carte' picking the coverage I want. That raises the price even MORE! Have you ever shopped for personal health care yourself? I have twice in recent years and it SUCKS!

I asked for simple catastrophic healthcare with the highest premium possible. Because of state mandates, I couldn't get the price down low enough for me to buy. Therefore, I've been excluded from purchasing a product due to state interference when I could have paid cash for a simple policy covering a car accident or sudden disease or the like.

there's your fucking government care. They want me to get on state medicare programs so they can mooch more money from out of state and then tell me to jump through hoops the rest of my life till they get bored with me and cut my ass off, just like I've watched another friend of mine who died from Sarcoidosis had done to her. Well, they were kind. they shuffled her into a nursing home to die in drugged out painless stupor, all but a vegetable.

So fuck you, your government healthcare, the horse you rode in on and have one for the road with prickly pears. You don't know SHIT about how it REALLY works! Sanctimonious self-righteous asshole.

 

[RDD_1210]

And you still seem to think that the only people who don't have healthcare coverage are people who just aren't working hard enough.

Some don't by choice. Others don't due to a lack of money. Those are teh people we are trying to help. Why don't these people have money? Everyone who doesn't have money bares at least some responsibility for not having money. You can not change what you don't acknowledge. You can not become wealthy until you identify your role in why you're not wealthy. That is the quintessential problem with you liberals. Your situation is NEVER your fault. Its always someone else and thus always someone elses job to fix it for you.

You don't get it. I want those people to have health care too. The difference between the two of us, even though we agreed your health care should be your financial responsibility is that your advocating of Obamacare and these subsidized insurance plans is a further disinsentive for people to do exactly that. You're basically telling peope, just show us you're poor enough and we'll get someone else to pay for it. Well if I'm poor and my goal is to get myself some health care coverage, what course of action am I likely to take. The most efficient one of course which under your plan is to do basically nothing.

It almost sounds like you're jealous of people who are dirt ass poor. Some of them are lazy fucks who aren't worth the air they breathe, but like it or not they will get sick and they will show up at a hospital that I will have to pay for through raised insurance rates. I'd rather pay less by just helping to subsidize their care before it gets out of hand in terms of cost. Nothing will probably make these people motivated enough not to be poor, but I can at least pay less for their care, which I know I will be paying for one way or another.

And then that doesn't take in to account all the other people who do work hard, who do want to make a better life but just can't make ends meet and afford health coverage. Look at Big Fitz for example. I don't think he's in the broke ass poor group, but he doesn't have healthcare coverage. Is that because he isn't working hard enough? I doubt it, but maybe he can tell us different. Big Fitz, are you not working as hard as you can?

 

[RDD_1210]

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

The irony is that he is not siding with you in wanting something for nothing.

The irony is that he is still saying that if you want something...pay for it.

LOL, what happens when he needs medical attention that costs 20k, 50k, 100k? I guarantee he won't lie on his couch and just say, well I don't have the money to afford this procedure, I'll just lay here and die. He'll seek treatment that he can't afford and that I will end up paying for through increased rates.

 

[Big Fitz]

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

The irony is that he is not siding with you in wanting something for nothing.

The irony is that he is still saying that if you want something...pay for it.

LOL, what happens when he needs medical attention that costs 20k, 50k, 100k? I guarantee he won't lie on his couch and just say, well I don't have the money to afford this procedure, I'll just lay here and die. He'll seek treatment that he can't afford and that I will end up paying for through increased rates.

And that's who's fault for making it too expensive?

Oh that's right...

The government's.

Dipshit. This is why you have no credibility.

 

[RDD_1210]

The fuck does that matter to you? It's none of your business if I do or don't. The point is I don't want national healthcare administering my medical care... EVER.

Ahhh, and there it is. "I guess you just aren't working hard enough". "What the hell is wrong with you. If you wanted insurance you should just go buy it." "You lazy, moocher."

I love the irony of this all.

Oh and you're welcome in advance.

wait... you are thinking that's some sort of victory of the debate?

Jesus you're a fucking retard.

What the hell do you think you've 'won'? The fact that I'm going to be forced onto Obamacare? oh that REALLY proves your point nimrod.

You know what's stopping me from buying my own health insurance right now?

State MANDATES! I have to get depression coverage, and rosacea coverage, and pregancy coverage (nice seeing I'm a guy), and abortion coverage, and port-wine stain removal coverage, and substance abuse treatment coverage.

over 100 mandated required coverages that I DON"T NEED, dumbass! And that raises the price. Then they limit the pool of companies I can choose from since you can't sell insurance across state lines, OR go 'a la carte' picking the coverage I want. That raises the price even MORE! Have you ever shopped for personal health care yourself? I have twice in recent years and it SUCKS!

I asked for simple catastrophic healthcare with the highest premium possible. Because of state mandates, I couldn't get the price down low enough for me to buy. Therefore, I've been excluded from purchasing a product due to state interference when I could have paid cash for a simple policy covering a car accident or sudden disease or the like.

there's your fucking government care. They want me to get on state medicare programs so they can mooch more money from out of state and then tell me to jump through hoops the rest of my life till they get bored with me and cut my ass off, just like I've watched another friend of mine who died from Sarcoidosis had done to her. Well, they were kind. they shuffled her into a nursing home to die in drugged out painless stupor, all but a vegetable.

So fuck you, your government healthcare, the horse you rode in on and have one for the road with prickly pears. You don't know SHIT about how it REALLY works! Sanctimonious self-righteous asshole.

Ouch, looks like I hit a nerve. Kinda sucks when your hypocritical views get pointed out, doesn't it?

If you can't afford health insurance you obviously are a deadbeat who isn't working hard enough. Do I have that right? LOL.

I noticed you didn't tell me how you planned to pay for treatment if you actually had something serious happen to you. F'ing amazing how hypocritical you are.

 

[RDD_1210]

The irony is that he is not siding with you in wanting something for nothing.

The irony is that he is still saying that if you want something...pay for it.

LOL, what happens when he needs medical attention that costs 20k, 50k, 100k? I guarantee he won't lie on his couch and just say, well I don't have the money to afford this procedure, I'll just lay here and die. He'll seek treatment that he can't afford and that I will end up paying for through increased rates.

And that's who's fault for making it too expensive?

Oh that's right...

The government's.

Dipshit. This is why you have no credibility.

Health insurance costs have been rising for years. That was the governments fault??? LMAO!!!

 

[Bern80]

It almost sounds like you're jealous of people who are dirt ass poor. Some of them are lazy fucks who aren't worth the air they breathe, but like it or not they will get sick and they will show up at a hospital that I will have to pay for through raised insurance rates. I'd rather pay less by just helping to subsidize their care before it gets out of hand in terms of cost. Nothing will probably make these people motivated enough not to be poor, but I can at least pay less for their care, which I know I will be paying for one way or another.

But that gets back to the logistics of it RDD. It isn't just there premiums you will have to pay for. You will have to pay for the government beauracracy of figuring out who doesn't make enough to purchase health insurance. Maybe subsidization sounds nice on the surface but it is rather evident you haven't even begun to think about what such a system would look like in reality.

And then that doesn't take in to account all the other people who do work hard, who do want to make a better life but just can't make ends meet and afford health coverage. Look at Big Fitz for example. I don't think he's in the broke ass poor group, but he doesn't have healthcare coverage. Is that because he isn't working hard enough? I doubt it, but maybe he can tell us different. Big Fitz, are you not working as hard as you can?

And that's the part that people need to examine about themselvs. It is not about how hard you work. I don't care if you put in 80 hours a week. If it's 80 hours a week at McDonalds or some min wage job, you're still not going to be able to afford health care. It's about working smart. It's a bigger picture and about understanding the skills you as an individual are going to need to cultivate to navigate life and afford a certain standard of living, part of which being your health care costs. Now I don't think I said anything horribly irrational there. But one thing you can not do as society is expect it to become stronger by creating dissinsentives to being personally responsibile.

Think about it. There is no other service we treat this way. There isn't a single other product or service out there where we say 'even though you can't pay for this thing or service you need, we'll give it to you anyway. In fact as long as you can show us you can't pay we promise it's free'. Do you think you would realy need to mandate that people buy health insurance if everyone understood they were on the hook for the bill no matter what? And as far as reducing costs the best way to get their is for financial transactions between patient and doctor to be more direct. If any reguation needs to be done it needs to be on the order of promoting personal responsibility for your own health care. Policy that gives people more options including the option to pay physicians directly when possible. I agree with Fitz in that sense. The avg. person ought to be able to pay for routine medical care without using insurance at all. And if we could get to a point that that was possible the cost of services would indeed go down. Hell you can already get a better deal in most cases on services dealing directly with hospitals. They don't want to deal with insurance companies anymore than you do.

The problem with Obamacare is it doesn't encourage any of those things. It isn't just that it doesn't do a very good job of achieving the goals you and I both agree on. It's that in a lot fo cases it will be down right detrimental to the system.

 

[RDD_1210]

It almost sounds like you're jealous of people who are dirt ass poor. Some of them are lazy fucks who aren't worth the air they breathe, but like it or not they will get sick and they will show up at a hospital that I will have to pay for through raised insurance rates. I'd rather pay less by just helping to subsidize their care before it gets out of hand in terms of cost. Nothing will probably make these people motivated enough not to be poor, but I can at least pay less for their care, which I know I will be paying for one way or another.

But that gets back to the logistics of it RDD. It isn't just there premiums you will have to pay for. You will have to pay for the government beauracracy of figuring out who doesn't make enough to purchase health insurance. Maybe subsidization sounds nice on the surface but it is rather evident you haven't even begun to think about what such a system would look like in reality.

And then that doesn't take in to account all the other people who do work hard, who do want to make a better life but just can't make ends meet and afford health coverage. Look at Big Fitz for example. I don't think he's in the broke ass poor group, but he doesn't have healthcare coverage. Is that because he isn't working hard enough? I doubt it, but maybe he can tell us different. Big Fitz, are you not working as hard as you can?

And that's the part that people need to examine about themselvs. It is not about how hard you work. I don't care if you put in 80 hours a week. If it's 80 hours a week at McDonalds or some min wage job, you're still not going to be able to afford health care. It's about working smart. It's a bigger picture and about understanding the skills you as an individual are going to need to cultivate to navigate life and afford a certain standard of living, part of which being your health care costs. Now I don't think I said anything horribly irrational there. But one thing you can not do as society is expect it to become stronger by creating dissinsentives to being personally responsibile.

Think about it. There is no other service we treat this way. There isn't a single other product or service out there where we say 'even though you can't pay for this thing or service you need, we'll give it to you anyway. In fact as long as you can show us you can't pay we promise it's free'. Do you think you would realy need to mandate that people buy health insurance if everyone understood they were on the hook for the bill no matter what? And as far as reducing costs the best way to get their is for financial transactions between patient and doctor to be more direct. If any reguation needs to be done it needs to be on the order of promoting personal responsibility for your own health care. Policy that gives people more options including the option to pay physicians directly when possible. I agree with Fitz in that sense. The avg. person ought to be able to pay for routine medical care without using insurance at all. And if we could get to a point that that was possible the cost of services would indeed go down. Hell you can already get a better deal in most cases on services dealing directly with hospitals. They don't want to deal with insurance companies anymore than you do.

The problem with Obamacare is it doesn't encourage any of those things. It isn't just that it doesn't do a very good job of achieving the goals you and I both agree on. It's that in a lot fo cases it will be down right detrimental to the system.

Hey I'm all for cutting insurance companies out all together but that is such a drastic overhaul that really would not help at all with the immediate needs we needed to address in our healthcare system. We built up and created a shitty cyclical system that needs MAJOR overhaul. If we could scrape the whole thing and start from scratch that would be great, but in reality that's just not feasible in todays world. That leaves us with makeshift solutions to cure immediate problems.....which is alot of what this legislation aims to do, as imperfect as it may be.

You're right though, there is no other industry/service we treat this way and the only reason I support this is because we're dealing with peoples lives and well being here. I am all for private business and making a buck, but people are suffering needlessly and it's affecting the rest of us who still can pay.