How Many Died in The Holocaust?

[Indeependent]

"The other day, my niece came home from Hebrew school and said, 'Aunt Sarah ... today we learned about the Holocaust. Did you know that Hitler killed 60 million Jews?'

I said, 'No, honey ... it was only 6 million Jews ... 60 million would have been unforgivable"

-- Sarah Silverman

A piece of shit.

Jews dont get a pass for mocking the Holocaust?

I would vote 'No' but I dont feel that I have a vote.

So I'll just jeer the pig from the balcony seats.

I'm sorry for having to explain this ... but, it's not mocking the Holocaust, or the millions of dead Jews at the hands of an insane Europe ... it's mocking the idea that fixating on an actual number is ridiculous.

She has a long standing history of mocking Judaism.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Hitler wasn't good enough to be a piece of shit.

The really scary thing about Hitler to my mind is that he was, outside of his evil anti-semitism and his militant bigoted nationalism, a really nice guy, the kind you could sit down and have a beer with and get along with him.

He was a very exceptional human being.

But that is kind of like saying, "She makes a good baby sitter if you can keep her away from roasting the babies in the oven."

How close to the edge of madness are most of us? I hate thinking about it because it unnerves me.

It is the good in Hitler that co-existed so calmly with his evil that is just mind bending and makes one doubt one's fellow man.

 

[fncceo]

She has a long standing history of mocking Judaism.

Ms. Silverman mocks many things. She has a history of pushing boundaries. It's safe to say there are very few point on which she and I would agree. But, when she's right, she's right.

Besides, she makes me laugh.

 

[JimBowie1958]

She has a long standing history of mocking Judaism.

Ms. Silverman mocks many things. She has a history of pushing boundaries. It's safe to say there are very few point on which she and I would agree. But, when she's right, she's right.

Besides, she makes me laugh.

Some things are not acceptable targets for twisted wit.

The death of family at the hands of a tyrant is one such case, and especially in the case of something so horrific.

It is just common decency to practice a little restraint around some subjects, but 'shock humor' is all the style these days.

 

[Indeependent]

Hitler wasn't good enough to be a piece of shit.

The really scary thing about Hitler to my mind is that he was, outside of his evil anti-semitism and his militant bigoted nationalism, a really nice guy, the kind you could sit down and have a beer with and get along with him.

He was a very exceptional human being.

But that is kind of like saying, "She makes a good baby sitter if you can keep her away from roasting the babies in the oven."

How close to the edge of madness are most of us? I hate thinking about it because it unnerves me.

I read the first 2 chapters of Mein Kampf (The English translation, of course).
Hitler had a twisted view of Jews because he never actually met an observant Jew.
The Jews he knew bought his artwork to keep him from starving but he saw this as "patronizing the goy".
The first paragraph of the 3rd chapter is so warped I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
He was a split personality of brilliance and brutality.
But he was so self absorbed with his divine greatness that he COULDN'T connect the dots of eventual military failures.

 

[fncceo]

his evil anti-semitism

This is the one thing that most people don't understand about the Holocaust. It wasn't just the Germans. Yes, Hitler was openly and vigorously anti-Semitic. But, you couldn't be a politician in 1930's Europe without being an open proponent or at least a tacit facilitator of anti-Semitism.

Early in the Holocaust, the Nazi's plan for the Jews was to eject them from German society -- they were satisfied for the Jews to leave Germany with the clothes on their backs. But those Jews had no where in Europe (or America) to go. No one would take them.

The first mass murders of Jews of the Holocaust weren't done in well-hidden concentration camps away from public view. They were done openly with the full co-operation of local nationals in the countries that Nazis controlled.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I read the first 2 chapters of Mein Kampf (The English translation, of course).
Hitler had a twisted view of Jews because he never actually met an observant Jew.
The Jews he knew bought his artwork to keep him from starving but he saw this as "patronizing the goy".
The first paragraph of the 3rd chapter is so warped I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
He was a split personality of brilliance and brutality.
But he was so self absorbed with his divine greatness that he COULDN'T connect the dots of eventual military failures.

Yeah, another conundrum.

Hitler was just brilliant enough to win control of one of the most modern Western nations of that time and to bring Germany to peaks of military and economic greatness (of a sort), and yet he was at the same time unstable enough that the pressure of failing to win and then actually to lose that war of survival broke him, destroyed Germany and helped to quicken the end of a war that never would have been without him.


All told, had I lived then and had opportunity I would have put a 45 slug through his brain without a qualm about it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

his evil anti-semitism

This is the one thing that most people don't understand about the Holocaust. It wasn't just the Germans. Yes, Hitler was openly and vigorously anti-Semitic. But, you couldn't be a politician in 1930's Europe without being an open proponent or at least a tacit facilitator of anti-Semitism.

Early in the Holocaust, the Nazi's plan for the Jews was to eject them from German society -- they were satisfied for the Jews to leave Germany with the clothes on their backs. But those Jews had no where in Europe (or America) to go. No one would take them.

The first mass murders of Jews of the Holocaust weren't done in well-hidden concentration camps away from public view. They were done openly with the full co-operation of local nationals in the countries that Nazis controlled.

I understand that, and I also understand that, as a Catholic, anti-semitism is now a mortal sin which makes it evil.

Capice?

 

[fncceo]

anti-semitism is now a mortal sin

A mortal sin since the '70s maybe. I understand we're no longer under suspicious for the killing Jesus thing ... but making anti-Semitism a mortal sin?

Even if that's true, it's also true that anti-Semitism has been a key precept of all sects of xtianity for nearly 2000 years.

 

[Indeependent]

Hitler wasn't good enough to be a piece of shit.

The really scary thing about Hitler to my mind is that he was, outside of his evil anti-semitism and his militant bigoted nationalism, a really nice guy, the kind you could sit down and have a beer with and get along with him.

He was a very exceptional human being.

But that is kind of like saying, "She makes a good baby sitter if you can keep her away from roasting the babies in the oven."

How close to the edge of madness are most of us? I hate thinking about it because it unnerves me.

It is the good in Hitler that co-existed so calmly with his evil that is just mind bending and makes one doubt one's fellow man.

Actually, Hitler was as treacherous as they get.
He had almost everyone under him executed on a regular basis except for his close circle.

 

[Eloy]

The word Holocaust is a misnomer for a couple of reasons. Firstly, a holocaust is a burnt offering to God in the Jewish faith. Jews who were exterminated by the Third Reich were not a sacrificial burnt offering in any sense of the word, including those whose bodies were actually burnt to ash in crematoria. Secondly, the word Holocaust as applied to the killing of Jews by the Third Reich, since its first use by the American commercial TV series of 1978, has been broadened in subsequent English usage to include all civilian victims of the Third Reich, so that people become unsure what the term really means.

For the extermination of Jews the Nazis used the word Endlösung, best rendered in English as the Final Solution and more accurately as die Endlösung der Judenfrage or The Final Solution of the Jewish Question. This is the best terminology for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it is the terminology actually used by the Nazis and secondly, it is applied only to Jews, not Roma, political prisoners, or other people who were in Nazi concentration and death camps.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Even if that's true, it's also true that anti-Semitism has been a key precept of all sects of xtianity for nearly 2000 years.

Oh, lol, anti-semitism has NEVER been a precept of any major Christian denomination.

You might have heard, our founder was a Jew Himself, so that is kind of a tricky thing being an anti-semite in a religion that is essentially a branch of Judaism itself.

The vast majority of anti-semites have been those more dependent on secular inspiration than Gospel.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Actually, Hitler was as treacherous as they get.
He had almost everyone under him executed on a regular basis except for his close circle.

I am certainly no expert on Hitler, but the impression I get is that he had mood swings and would go into spasms of paranoia and would often lash out at subordinates.

If he was suffering from tertiary syphilis, then he was likely going completely mad by the end of the war.

Like I said, as far as I am concerned he merited a bullet to the head almost as soon as he acquired power.

 

[fncceo]

Oh, lol, anti-semitism has NEVER been a precept of any major Christian denomination.

St Ambrose, on of the Founding Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church identified Jews and Judaism with heresy and declared the people of Israel to be extra Deum (lat. "outside of God").

John Chrysostom held, as most Church Fathers did, that the sins of all Jews were communal and endless, to him his Jewish neighbours were the collective representation of all alleged crimes of all preexisting Jews. All Church Fathers applied the passages of the New Testament concerning the alleged advocation of the crucifixion of Christ to all Jews of his day, the Jews were the ultimate evil. However, John Chrysostom went so far to say that because Jews rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed: "grew fit for slaughter." In citing the New Testament,[Luke 19:27] he claimed that Jesus was speaking about Jews when he said, "as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me."

"the ceremonies of the Jews are harmful and deadly to Christians", whoever keeps them was doomed to the devil: "My enemies are the Jews; they have conspired in hatred against Me, crucified Me, heaped evils of all kinds upon Me, blasphemed Me." -- Good Friday Liturgy of the Catholic Church

On 14 July 1555, Pope Paul IV issued papal bull Cum nimis absurdum which revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States, renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradation and restrictions on their personal freedom, established the Roman Ghetto and required Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in it. The Ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.

Paul IV's successor, Pope Pius IV, enforced the creation of other ghettos in most Italian towns, and his successor, Pope Pius V, recommended them to other bordering states.

Lest we believe that these religious teachings are limited to the Catholic Church, the following is one of many quotes from Martin Luther.

“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb... safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews and all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.”

Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) On the Jews and Their Lies.

Shall I continue?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Oh, lol, anti-semitism has NEVER been a precept of any major Christian denomination.

St Ambrose, on of the Founding Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church identified Jews and Judaism with heresy and declared the people of Israel to be extra Deum (lat. "outside of God").

John Chrysostom held, as most Church Fathers did, that the sins of all Jews were communal and endless, to him his Jewish neighbours were the collective representation of all alleged crimes of all preexisting Jews. All Church Fathers applied the passages of the New Testament concerning the alleged advocation of the crucifixion of Christ to all Jews of his day, the Jews were the ultimate evil. However, John Chrysostom went so far to say that because Jews rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed: "grew fit for slaughter." In citing the New Testament,[Luke 19:27] he claimed that Jesus was speaking about Jews when he said, "as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me."

"the ceremonies of the Jews are harmful and deadly to Christians", whoever keeps them was doomed to the devil: "My enemies are the Jews; they have conspired in hatred against Me, crucified Me, heaped evils of all kinds upon Me, blasphemed Me." -- Good Friday Liturgy of the Catholic Church

On 14 July 1555, Pope Paul IV issued papal bull Cum nimis absurdum which revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States, renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradation and restrictions on their personal freedom, established the Roman Ghetto and required Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in it. The Ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.

Paul IV's successor, Pope Pius IV, enforced the creation of other ghettos in most Italian towns, and his successor, Pope Pius V, recommended them to other bordering states.

Lest we believe that these religious teachings are limited to the Catholic Church, the following is one of many quotes from Martin Luther.

“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb... safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews and all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.”

Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) On the Jews and Their Lies.

Shall I continue?

Sure, go ahead as NONE of that is a precept of Christianity. I gave you a link to the definition of the word, so I dont get your issue here.

None of these people were Apostles or even leaders in the Magisterium and Luther was a heretic as well. No, these were not authorities within the Catholic Church.

Sure, there have been anti-semites in the Catholic church just as there have been child molesting priests in the Catholic church just like there have been child molesting clergy in every religion, but those are not the people who define the precepts of their faith.

Shall I continue?

There is no doubt that anti-semitism was NEVER a basic principle or precept of Christianity. The so-called curse that Jesus placed on the Jews was not placed on all Jews for all time but only on the Jewish enemies of the church of THAT GENERATION, a curse fulfilled when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and tore down the Temple and it ENDED THERE. Any Christian preacher that does not realize those facts should shut their fucking mouths and go find another hobby to blather about..

 

[fncceo]

go ahead as NONE of that is a precept of Christianity

precept
ˈpriːsɛpt/
noun
noun: precept; plural noun: precepts

1. 1.
   a general rule intended to regulate behaviour or thought.
   "the legal precept of being innocent until proven guilty"
   synonyms: principle, rule, tenet, canon, code, doctrine, guideline, working principle, law, ordinance, statute, command, order, decree, mandate, dictate, dictum, directive, direction, instruction, injunction, prescription, commandment
2. 2.
   a writ or warrant.

If the writings and edicts of the founders of Xtianity and the official Papal Bulls of the spiritual leaders of the Catholic Church do not fall under the definition of precepts -- then what does?

All of those teachings and official edicts were based on the interpretations of scripture by the top authorities of the Catholic church. These are NOT the ravings of a few miscreant priests -- this is church doctrine.

 

[JimBowie1958]

go ahead as NONE of that is a precept of Christianity

precept
ˈpriːsɛpt/
noun
noun: precept; plural noun: precepts

1. 1.
   a general rule intended to regulate behaviour or thought.
   "the legal precept of being innocent until proven guilty"
   synonyms: principle, rule, tenet, canon, code, doctrine, guideline, working principle, law, ordinance, statute, command, order, decree, mandate, dictate, dictum, directive, direction, instruction, injunction, prescription, commandment
2. 2.
   a writ or warrant.

If the writings and edicts of the founders of Xtianity and the official Papal Bulls of the spiritual leaders of the Catholic Church do not fall under the definition of precepts -- then what does?

All of those teachings and official edicts were based on the interpretations of scripture by the top authorities of the Catholic church. These are NOT the ravings of a few miscreant priests -- this is church doctrine.

A Papal Bull putting restrictions on Jews is hardly the same thing that the Nazis did nor established any sort of 'rule' that guided all of Christianity in establishing anti-semitism. So very often priests and even Bishops were merely wealthy or noble men who got a job wearing priestly garments but who had little else to recommend them as Godly men. For that kind of authority to damn all of Judaism you have to go back to the Apostles and the Council of Nicea. And you wont find an endorsement of anti-semitism there either.

In fact what we *do* have is the following from the Apostle Saint Paul and this is in our Holy Scripture, in the first book of letters by the Apostles to the church ROMANS, unlike the rest of the wild opinion you dredged up.

Romans chapter 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans chapter 3
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God....

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans chapter 9
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.​

You cant get any more authoritative in Christianity than to quote directly from the Apostle Paul himself who was the pre-eminent missionary of the first century church, and who was such an authority in the church that he even was able to silence Saint Peter himself in Jerusalem.

So if St Paul says Jews are blessed by God and have precedence over the rest of us, though we are all equally loved and rewarded, then let every other Christian who would speak ill of god's Chosen be silent for shame if not Truth.

 

[fncceo]

A Papal Bull putting restrictions on Jews is hardly the same thing that the Nazis

I never said it was. What I said was, that the reason the Nazis were able to accomplish what they did was in no small part due to the fact that anti-Semitism in Europe wasn't an anomaly of the Nazis ... it was part of the DNA of Xtian Europeans and has been for centuries. Even the enemies of the Nazis (free French and British) were more than happy to expel Jews from there lands into the waiting hands of the Nazis.

A list of massacres in and expulsions of Jews from European lands would date from the time of the Early Xtian church to the Holocaust (and what continues today in the guise of anti-Zionism) and would fill up several pages.

This in-bred autonomic hatred of Jews in Europe has its origins in the fact that Jew hatred has been preached from the Vatican to the pulpits of every church in Xtiandom since the church was organised. You may not wish to believe it ... but the history of Jews in Europe presents an undeniable truth.

I'm glad that the excesses of the Holocaust caused the church to slowly turn its back on this part of their doctrine as they begrudgingly began to accept their complicity in the attempted genocide of the Jewish people. But to deny the bloody past of the Xtian church is to invite a repeat of the bloodshed. Denying the attitudes that persuaded almost all of Europe to willingly assist in the Holocaust is as bad as denying the Holocaust itself.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I never said it was. What I said was, that the reason the Nazis were able to accomplish what they did was in no small part due to the fact that anti-Semitism in Europe wasn't an anomaly of the Nazis ... it was part of the DNA of Xtian Europeans and has been for centuries.

Wow, I dont think I have ever read anything more ironic than that.

Aside from that, why does the antisemitism of ignorant fools that have no regard for their own scripture define the DNA of Christians in Europe, but the pro-Israeli Christian actions of many more does not? How many Jews were saved from the Holocaust? Was that in their DNA as well?

A list of massacres in and expulsions of Jews from European lands would date from the time of the Early Xtian church to the Holocaust (and what continues today in the guise of anti-Zionism) and would fill up several pages.

As would the massacre of Christians from the first century and is still going on as we speak. Over 90,000 Christians were killed around the world last year alone.

What religion has more martyrs than Christianity? Some twenty million civilians have been killed by the Turks, Stalinists, Maoists, Khmer Rouge and Islamofascists in the past century alone.

This in-bred autonomic hatred of Jews in Europe has its origins in the fact that Jew hatred has been preached from the Vatican to the pulpits of every church in Xtiandom since the church was organised. You may not wish to believe it ... but the history of Jews in Europe presents an undeniable truth.

You have shown some docs that for various complex reasons other than merely hatred banished Jews to ghettos, and that was going to happen any way in that time, as people were not exactly trusting of strangers back before there was widespread literacy that enabled a person to carry travel documents. The restrictions probably served to protect Jews as much as it did to restrict them.

And yet that was not an establishment of some mythof Cursed Jews or Blood Libel or any of that other rubbish that typically comes with anti-semitic literature.

No, you have not proven any Jew hatred coming from the Vatican, and even if it was did, that was completely eradicated from the church with the Vatican 2 Council that has made it plain as day tha there is no more tolerance in the church for antisemtism of anyh kind hence forth.

Denying the attitudes that persuaded almost all of Europe to willingly assist in the Holocaust is as bad as denying the Holocaust itself.

Lol, not hardly. Does that sort of contrivance actually persuade people that you discuss this topic with, or merely silence them?

 

[Preacher]

We can feel certain George Soros didn't.

Can't have everything.....

Well Soros soul most certainly died as he helped take the property of Jews that were sent to Death Camps.

Had he been at Auschwitz, I think he would have been one of those guys pulling the gold teeth, for an extra slice of potato then bragging later about how good it made him feel these days to remember it.

There is no more a despicable man on this planet except maybe for David Irving.

You don't like Irving aka you don't like critical thinkers who want the TRUTH despite what whiners think about it.