How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[GHook93]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

I believe the idea is to retain the best and most experienced teachers, but it obviously doesn't always work out that way.

That was the theory, but I think it did the opposite. It allows bad teacher (as well as good ones) job security. It provides no incentive for teachers to better themselves via education, training, certifications etc. They can remain stagnate, get the same raises and get the same protections. Furthermore it allows teachers the freedom of pushing their own ideological beliefs on their students, taking retaliatory measures against students they don't like without fear of losing their job!

In summary it lowers the quality of our educators.

 

[Sallow]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

Since when?

Link for that?

Modern America has a 99% literacy rate.

Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

That's compared to:

In 1820, 20% of the entire adult white population was illiterate, and 80% of the African American population was illiterate.

Literacy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[boedicca]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

Since when?

Link for that?

Modern America has a 99% literacy rate.

Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

That's compared to:

In 1820, 20% of the entire adult white population was illiterate, and 80% of the African American population was illiterate.

Literacy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

99% Literacy?

That is completely bogus. Too many high school students who are functionally illiterate are matriculated for Politically Correct purposes these days.

STEM graduates are on the decline.

Do your own research; I'm not your internet assistant.

 

[bodecea]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure does not help students.

In my district, it took more then five years to remove an ineffective teacher.

She was qualified to teach the subject.

Her approach to teaching was she 'favored' students who were excited about her class, (aprox 1/3), 'helped' students who were interested in the subject, failed to help the remaining 1/3. Calsters is what keeps 'them' going.

What were the other 1/3rd doing? Education shouldn't be a passive thing....the students have to participate.

 

[Jackson]

Tenured teachers are hard to get rid of. Right now to be tenured, it just takes being on the job a long time. That should change. It should be tests and Praxis completion to be given and stay tenured. Every 7 years a teacher should validate their tenure.

Tenured teachers should be paid a great deal more.

 

[RandallFlagg]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

Then why the hell do these fat-assed teachers treat them like cheeseburgers? EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

 

[bodecea]

Keeps administrators from using downsizing to get rid of good teachers for office politics reasons.

Let's be honest. There are teachers who need to be fired because they are incompetent. But administrators need to make those cases. Not, "Well, I'll just wait for budget cuts to get rid of him."

For your argument to be valid, you'd have to demonstrate that good teachers are fired for office politics at a higher rate than bad teachers. There's no evidence of this.

Yeah, because you have union protections that keep that from happening. It's like saying, "prove that lock on your door keeps people from stealing your widescreen." Well. I locked my door, no one stole my widescreen. Duh!

[
In FL, schools get more money for doing well on tests. The incentive is to keep good teachers and get rid of bad ones.

No, it isn't.

Testing is probably the worst thing that happened to teaching.

True story. I was talking to my then 14 year old niece about Columbus and why he made his voyage. And, no, she was never taught any of the details because "it wasn't on the test."

Testing just mean the teachers teach to the test.

But even if you accept the tests are measuring anything other than the ability of testing companies to scam school districts out of money, then it would strike me the schools that do poorly are in need of more money, not the schools that do well.

I'm not arguing about the efficacy of testing. I'm arguing that there is an incentive to keep good teachers because there is a financial incentive - cold, hard cash - to do so. Yours is a nebulous argument of "office politics." Administrators want more money. The incentives are to keep good teachers, not get rid of them for nebulous reasons.

So...how do you fairly treat the teachers of the special ed students and otherwise lower..such as English Language Learners? They get slammed because their students (no surprise) don't do as well?

 

[Unkotare]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

 

[RandallFlagg]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

 

[Unkotare]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

 

[RandallFlagg]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

Sonny - I advise you to go and learn a little bit about unions. and ESPECIALLY teacher unions before you start running your mouth. Once tenured, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of these leeches.

 

[boilermaker55]

That was my point. If it has no real direct affect upon you, what good are they?
Don't just single out one aspect of our society and think it is prevalent to that group and that group only.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

 

[Sallow]

MYTH:
Tenure is a lifetime job guarantee.

REALITY:
Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.

If it is difficult --- purposely difficult --- to fire a tenured professor, it's also very hard to become one. The probationary period averages three years for community colleges and seven years at four-year colleges. This is a period of employment insecurity almost unique among U.S. professions. People denied tenure at the end of this time lose their jobs; tenure is an "up-or-out" process.

During the probationary period, almost all colleges can choose not to renew faculty contracts and terminate faculty without any reason or cause. Throughout this time, senior professors and administrators evaluate the work of new faculty-teaching, research and service before deciding whether or not to recommend tenure. The most recent survey of American faculty shows that, in a typical year, about one in five probationary faculty members was denied tenure and lost his or her job.

Faculty members remain accountable after achieving tenure. Tenured faculty at most colleges and universities are evaluated periodically-among other things, for promotion, salary increases and, in some cases, merit increases. Grant applications and articles for publication are routinely reviewed on their merit by peers in the field. If basic academic tenets and due process rights are observed, this kind of accountability is wholly appropriate. A finding of incompetence or unprofessional conduct can still result in firing.

The Truth About Tenure in Higher Education

In the New York public school system, it is very difficult to fire someone. Often, bad teachers are paid to do nothing because it's much more onerous to fire a teacher than to just pay them.

New York City requires that a teacher has a master's degree.

A person with a master's degree is basically guaranteed a six figure salary.

That's not offered by the public school system of New York, not initially anyway.

You have to work a very long time before your salary approaches anywhere near that level.

My mom was a new york city public school teacher.

 

[Unkotare]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

Sonny - I advise you to go and learn a little bit about unions. and ESPECIALLY teacher unions ...

I'm all set, thanks. I haven't been defending teacher unions, I'm telling you that you are wallowing in emotive self-indulgence. You could do better if you'd just calm down.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Tenured teachers are hard to get rid of. Right now to be tenured, it just takes being on the job a long time. That should change. It should be tests and Praxis completion to be given and stay tenured. Every 7 years a teacher should validate their tenure.

Tenured teachers should be paid a great deal more.

And that is the reason I am so against ANY public sector unions (including teacher unions).

Franklin D. Roosevelt Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service

Roosevelt was correct when he asserted that "Public sector unions would be the death of America" in that - once tenured - it is nearly impossible to get rid of the trash element in these unions. Once tenured, there dis absolutely NO REASON for a teacher to excel. None whatsoever....

 

[boilermaker55]

Sonny! The same advice is directed to you.
Ever go to a school board meeting? Ever attend a function at your school concerning education.
I don't know from your avatar if you were or are military.
If you were/are think about how this entity works.
You don't know much about what you are talking about.

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

Sonny - I advise you to go and learn a little bit about unions. and ESPECIALLY teacher unions before you start running your mouth. Once tenured, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of these leeches.

 

[RandallFlagg]

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

Sonny - I advise you to go and learn a little bit about unions. and ESPECIALLY teacher unions ...

I'm all set, thanks. I haven't been defending teacher unions, I'm telling you that you are wallowing in emotive self-indulgence. You could do better if you'd just calm down.

And you would do well to fuck off.

 

[Sallow]

That was my point. If it has no real direct affect upon you, what good are they?
Don't just single out one aspect of our society and think it is prevalent to that group and that group only.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

I'm sorry but WHAT?

I pay Federal Tax, State Tax, City Tax, Sales Tax, Property Tax and a whole lotta other taxes. What happened during the Bush Cataclysm did have a direct effect on me, as many of those taxes I paid weren't used to improve roads, improve transportation, hire more sanitation or public service employees in general. And being that I work in the financial industry? As a direct result of those actions taken by those CEOs..I lost my job.

I spent over a year trying to land another one and had to mine my 401k to survive.

Which by the way? I got heavily taxed for..

Don't tell me that those schmucks didn't directly affect me.

They did.

 

[boilermaker55]

How eloquent of you with this thought out intelligent response.

EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

You don't think there are any experienced teachers?

???

No dumbass - Experience = Job Security. Or the ability to sit on your ass and do little to nothing without danger of being fired. THAT'S what tenure gets you.

For every teacher? Don't get so caught up in emotion that you make sweeping generalizations that turn out to be indefensible.

Sonny - I advise you to go and learn a little bit about unions. and ESPECIALLY teacher unions ...

I'm all set, thanks. I haven't been defending teacher unions, I'm telling you that you are wallowing in emotive self-indulgence. You could do better if you'd just calm down.

And you would do well to fuck off.

 

[boilermaker55]

I believe you are not understanding my comment or it wasn't made clear.
I agree with you totally. They affect your directly or indirectly.

That was my point. If it has no real direct affect upon you, what good are they?
Don't just single out one aspect of our society and think it is prevalent to that group and that group only.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

I'm sorry but WHAT?

I pay Federal Tax, State Tax, City Tax, Sales Tax, Property Tax and a whole lotta other taxes. What happened during the Bush Cataclysm did have a direct effect on me, as many of those taxes I paid weren't used to improve roads, improve transportation, hire more sanitation or public service employees in general. And being that I work in the financial industry? As a direct result of those actions taken by those CEOs..I lost my job.

I spent over a year trying to land another one and had to mine my 401k to survive.

Which by the way? I got heavily taxed for..

Don't tell me that those schmucks didn't directly affect me.

They did.