How do we curtail gun violence?

[Geaux4it]

Lets put a gun in every home.

Society is safer when criminals don't know who's armed

-Geaux

 

[sameech]

I agree that poverty is the larger problem that needs to be addressed. Desperation and a gun don't mix well.
On "Gun Control" I would ask the question "What is gun control"? Is a three day waiting period not "Gun Control"? Maybe the question should be "How much Gun Control is reasonable?"
There's a very funny anecdote I'd like to share. It's from Chris Rock:

You don’t need no gun control. We need some bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5,000. If a bullet cost $5,000, there’ll be no more innocent bystanders. Every time somebody gets shot it’ll be like, “Man, he must have done something. Shit, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.”​

Is there any truth to the idea of imposing a vice tax on guns? Would imposing a vice tax on guns and/or ammunition make illegal guns prohibitively expensive? Would the thought of lost revenue make the government more likely to enforce the laws we already have?

The recent Obamacare decision would seem to indicate that as long as you call it a tax and not a fine, things that would otherwise be unconstitutional become constitutional.

The problem is a political one. This tax the ammo only makes moderate/middle class sense so you will have both ends coming at it in opposition. Rich people who can afford an M-16 and fire off a 1,000 rounds a week as range queens will oppose it because they are already "taxed too damn much" and the poor people will oppose it because it either makes it harder for them to hunt (rural) or makes it harder for them to protect themselves from gangs (urban). I would support it, but that dog will never hunt.

 

[Uncensored2008]

These are the people enabled by the far right talking and media machine in America. The NRA too.

Indiana dad of Las Vegas shooter: 'I begged her not to marry him' - chicagotribune.com

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...has-become-a-killing-field-2.html#post6498531

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...s-doesn-t-make-sense-to-me-5.html#post7038526

Guns are the crack of the partisan hacks. Courage is an imaginary passion for them and thus the gun huggers cling to the source of their only strength, an empty bravado. They are like a child with its blankee who cries when separated. Drugs, even when they are hard metal talismans of courage are not something the frightened can part with. They have come to represent freedom for the unfree, teetered as they are to the gun lobby and the NRA, and a gross misrepresentation of the 2nd amendment. They need their fix and their fix is an object of imaginary security, an object that gives meaning to a senselessness that only programmed Americans can believe is real. Oh and I laugh that the NRA removed the word 'militia' from their retard headquarter's slogan misuse of the second.

Comrade. do you have a sign in front of your trailer, assuring everyone that there are "no guns here?"

I strongly urge ALL Obamunists to advertise the fact that you have no weapons or ability to defend yourself.

A nice sign that says "Feel free to rape and rob, we are unarmed" will work as well.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

These are the people enabled by the far right talking and media machine in America. The NRA too.

Indiana dad of Las Vegas shooter: 'I begged her not to marry him' - chicagotribune.com

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...has-become-a-killing-field-2.html#post6498531

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...s-doesn-t-make-sense-to-me-5.html#post7038526

Guns are the crack of the partisan hacks. Courage is an imaginary passion for them and thus the gun huggers cling to the source of their only strength, an empty bravado. They are like a child with its blankee who cries when separated. Drugs, even when they are hard metal talismans of courage are not something the frightened can part with. They have come to represent freedom for the unfree, teetered as they are to the gun lobby and the NRA, and a gross misrepresentation of the 2nd amendment. They need their fix and their fix is an object of imaginary security, an object that gives meaning to a senselessness that only programmed Americans can believe is real. Oh and I laugh that the NRA removed the word 'militia' from their retard headquarter's slogan misuse of the second.

Comrade. do you have a sign in front of your trailer, assuring everyone that there are "no guns here?"

I strongly urge ALL Obamunists to advertise the fact that you have no weapons or ability to defend yourself.

A nice sign that says "Feel free to rape and rob, we are unarmed" will work as well.

Oh boy, another post about rapine.

You stay classy, San Diego!

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

I agree that poverty is the larger problem that needs to be addressed. Desperation and a gun don't mix well.
On "Gun Control" I would ask the question "What is gun control"? Is a three day waiting period not "Gun Control"? Maybe the question should be "How much Gun Control is reasonable?"
There's a very funny anecdote I'd like to share. It's from Chris Rock:

You don’t need no gun control. We need some bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5,000. If a bullet cost $5,000, there’ll be no more innocent bystanders. Every time somebody gets shot it’ll be like, “Man, he must have done something. Shit, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.”​

Is there any truth to the idea of imposing a vice tax on guns? Would imposing a vice tax on guns and/or ammunition make illegal guns prohibitively expensive? Would the thought of lost revenue make the government more likely to enforce the laws we already have?

The recent Obamacare decision would seem to indicate that as long as you call it a tax and not a fine, things that would otherwise be unconstitutional become constitutional.

The problem is a political one. This tax the ammo only makes moderate/middle class sense so you will have both ends coming at it in opposition. Rich people who can afford an M-16 and fire off a 1,000 rounds a week as range queens will oppose it because they are already "taxed too damn much" and the poor people will oppose it because it either makes it harder for them to hunt (rural) or makes it harder for them to protect themselves from gangs (urban). I would support it, but that dog will never hunt.

What about a progressive tax on firearms and associated ammunition? Low taxes or no taxes on the typical varmint rifles, higher on more powerful bolt action rifles, even higher on handguns, and higher still on more powerful weapons. We already have such a tax system codified in 26 USC §4181
U.S.C. Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Right now, under this statute, there are only two categories. The current difference in taxation is 1%. Pistols and Revolvers are the category taxed less.

I'm really not proposing anything radically new. We actually have something like this on the books. I'm just suggesting we use a tool we already have more effectively.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

I would agree it was all of the above. What it wasn't was gun control. I am not saying gun control is evil, I am saying it in ineffective and takes the focus away from the actual problem. It is a bandaid, and not even applied to the wound. It is an easy sound bite for politicians so they don't have to deal with the real issue.

I agree that poverty is the larger problem that needs to be addressed. Desperation and a gun don't mix well.
On "Gun Control" I would ask the question "What is gun control"? Is a three day waiting period not "Gun Control"? Maybe the question should be "How much Gun Control is reasonable?"
There's a very funny anecdote I'd like to share. It's from Chris Rock:

You don’t need no gun control. We need some bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5,000. If a bullet cost $5,000, there’ll be no more innocent bystanders. Every time somebody gets shot it’ll be like, “Man, he must have done something. Shit, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.”​

Is there any truth to the idea of imposing a vice tax on guns? Would imposing a vice tax on guns and/or ammunition make illegal guns prohibitively expensive? Would the thought of lost revenue make the government more likely to enforce the laws we already have?

A financial approach to guns will only impact legal users and, once again, is directed at the wrong problem. Chris Rock, though entertaining, is wrong.

Poverty has proven to be the larger problem. No argument. I'd call it a concession, but I'm not arguing otherwise.

That is not to say we should ignore the ill effects of illegal firearms. I'm going on the premise that there is a markup on handguns in the black market therefore inflicting a tax on these weapons of choice upfront will drastically increase the prices required by the black market. Hence they sell fewer of them, unless you think the demand is so inelastic as to not wane in response to such a high price?

As for stolen firearms winding up on the black market, if a man says his home was burglarized and his gun cabinet was picked clean of twenty or thirty weapons... how are we going to track down where those weapons went? Maybe if the guns cost more, people would purely of their own volition invest in a gun safe?

Additionally, what if we funded the ATF off these taxes? Is it possible that the ATF would be less incompetent if it needed to chase down those who violated its own tax-based funding?

What is the alternative to stymieing the flow of illegal firearms?

 

[sameech]

What about a progressive tax on firearms and associated ammunition? Low taxes or no taxes on the typical varmint rifles, higher on more powerful bolt action rifles, even higher on handguns, and higher still on more powerful weapons. We already have such a tax system codified in 26 USC §4181
U.S.C. Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Right now, under this statute, there are only two categories. The current difference in taxation is 1%. Pistols and Revolvers are the category taxed less.

I'm really not proposing anything radically new. We actually have something like this on the books. I'm just suggesting we use a tool we already have more effectively.

I am fine with it. I still Think it is politically a hard sell. Maybe if the revenues were automatically earmarked to something related like buy back programs, it would seem more sellable.

 

[PratchettFan]

I agree that poverty is the larger problem that needs to be addressed. Desperation and a gun don't mix well.
On "Gun Control" I would ask the question "What is gun control"? Is a three day waiting period not "Gun Control"? Maybe the question should be "How much Gun Control is reasonable?"
There's a very funny anecdote I'd like to share. It's from Chris Rock:

You don’t need no gun control. We need some bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5,000. If a bullet cost $5,000, there’ll be no more innocent bystanders. Every time somebody gets shot it’ll be like, “Man, he must have done something. Shit, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in his ass.”​

Is there any truth to the idea of imposing a vice tax on guns? Would imposing a vice tax on guns and/or ammunition make illegal guns prohibitively expensive? Would the thought of lost revenue make the government more likely to enforce the laws we already have?

A financial approach to guns will only impact legal users and, once again, is directed at the wrong problem. Chris Rock, though entertaining, is wrong.

Poverty has proven to be the larger problem. No argument. I'd call it a concession, but I'm not arguing otherwise.

That is not to say we should ignore the ill effects of illegal firearms. I'm going on the premise that there is a markup on handguns in the black market therefore inflicting a tax on these weapons of choice upfront will drastically increase the prices required by the black market. Hence they sell fewer of them, unless you think the demand is so inelastic as to not wane in response to such a high price?

As for stolen firearms winding up on the black market, if a man says his home was burglarized and his gun cabinet was picked clean of twenty or thirty weapons... how are we going to track down where those weapons went? Maybe if the guns cost more, people would purely of their own volition invest in a gun safe?

Additionally, what if we funded the ATF off these taxes? Is it possible that the ATF would be less incompetent if it needed to chase down those who violated its own tax-based funding?

What is the alternative to stymieing the flow of illegal firearms?

Illegal firearms are.... illegal. You want more laws to make them more illegal? The solution you are presenting will not solve that, it will just make it more likely for a firearm to be illgal - for no other purpose than to do so.

If you want to attack the problem of illegal firearms, then take away the source of money buying them. This is driven by the drug trade. Make drugs legal and you remove the money paying for the illegal guns.

But we won't do that because it would actually help solve the problem. And there is money in the problem. Money for the DEA, money for police departments, money for governments. The problem may hurt people, but it also pays a lot of salaries. So don't hold your breath for any solution that will solve anything. Too many people make too much money solving the problem to want the problem to go away.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Oh boy, another post about rapine.

That's why you Obamunists want women disarmed, to keep the streets safe for rapists!

I mean otherwise, it might be your nuts she blows off with a 9mm.... democrats are all about protecting people - provided those people are predators...

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

A financial approach to guns will only impact legal users and, once again, is directed at the wrong problem. Chris Rock, though entertaining, is wrong.

Poverty has proven to be the larger problem. No argument. I'd call it a concession, but I'm not arguing otherwise.

That is not to say we should ignore the ill effects of illegal firearms. I'm going on the premise that there is a markup on handguns in the black market therefore inflicting a tax on these weapons of choice upfront will drastically increase the prices required by the black market. Hence they sell fewer of them, unless you think the demand is so inelastic as to not wane in response to such a high price?

As for stolen firearms winding up on the black market, if a man says his home was burglarized and his gun cabinet was picked clean of twenty or thirty weapons... how are we going to track down where those weapons went? Maybe if the guns cost more, people would purely of their own volition invest in a gun safe?

Additionally, what if we funded the ATF off these taxes? Is it possible that the ATF would be less incompetent if it needed to chase down those who violated its own tax-based funding?

What is the alternative to stymieing the flow of illegal firearms?

Illegal firearms are.... illegal. You want more laws to make them more illegal? The solution you are presenting will not solve that, it will just make it more likely for a firearm to be illgal - for no other purpose than to do so.

If you want to attack the problem of illegal firearms, then take away the source of money buying them. This is driven by the drug trade. Make drugs legal and you remove the money paying for the illegal guns.

But we won't do that because it would actually help solve the problem. And there is money in the problem. Money for the DEA, money for police departments, money for governments. The problem may hurt people, but it also pays a lot of salaries. So don't hold your breath for any solution that will solve anything. Too many people make too much money solving the problem to want the problem to go away.

I don't want to make anything illegal "more illegal". That would be nonsensical. Since a tax is constitutional, I ask the question "would increasing the price reduce demand?"

I agree that the war on drugs is no small part of the funding for these murders. I'm not going to support legalizing smack and other opiates for recreational use, as these drugs were used by foreign powers to destructive effect in China not so long ago. But we don't need to be such militant prudes or destroy the lives of young people by labeling them felons over what they do to themselves.

 

[PratchettFan]

Poverty has proven to be the larger problem. No argument. I'd call it a concession, but I'm not arguing otherwise.

That is not to say we should ignore the ill effects of illegal firearms. I'm going on the premise that there is a markup on handguns in the black market therefore inflicting a tax on these weapons of choice upfront will drastically increase the prices required by the black market. Hence they sell fewer of them, unless you think the demand is so inelastic as to not wane in response to such a high price?

As for stolen firearms winding up on the black market, if a man says his home was burglarized and his gun cabinet was picked clean of twenty or thirty weapons... how are we going to track down where those weapons went? Maybe if the guns cost more, people would purely of their own volition invest in a gun safe?

Additionally, what if we funded the ATF off these taxes? Is it possible that the ATF would be less incompetent if it needed to chase down those who violated its own tax-based funding?

What is the alternative to stymieing the flow of illegal firearms?

Illegal firearms are.... illegal. You want more laws to make them more illegal? The solution you are presenting will not solve that, it will just make it more likely for a firearm to be illgal - for no other purpose than to do so.

If you want to attack the problem of illegal firearms, then take away the source of money buying them. This is driven by the drug trade. Make drugs legal and you remove the money paying for the illegal guns.

But we won't do that because it would actually help solve the problem. And there is money in the problem. Money for the DEA, money for police departments, money for governments. The problem may hurt people, but it also pays a lot of salaries. So don't hold your breath for any solution that will solve anything. Too many people make too much money solving the problem to want the problem to go away.

I don't want to make anything illegal "more illegal". That would be nonsensical. Since a tax is constitutional, I ask the question "would increasing the price reduce demand?"

I agree that the war on drugs is no small part of the funding for these murders. I'm not going to support legalizing smack and other opiates for recreational use, as these drugs were used by foreign powers to destructive effect in China not so long ago. But we don't need to be such militant prudes or destroy the lives of young people by labeling them felons over what they do to themselves.

No. It would not reduce the demand. As I said, increasing the price would only affect people who buy legally and they are not the problem.

While heroin is certainly a destructive drug, what you decide to put into your body is your decision and none of my business - nor the business of the government. It would be far cheaper to provide you with free rehab than to put you in prison for it, and considerably more productive. It would also allow you the opportunity to sue the supplier if the quality was bad. But that would cost law enforcement a lot of money, so it won't happen. For our own good, of course.

 

[auditor0007]

There has been a lot of talk about mass shooting incidents.
What I see in that talk are many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearms in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are your thoughts on gun violence in America?
What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and make a dent in the 99% of gun violence in our country?

The answer is simple. Make everyone carry a handgun or shotgun wherever they go. School kids starting in kindergarten should be armed with something small like a 22 and should graduate to a semi-automatic by high school. If everyone is carrying a gun, we'll all be safer. It's especially important for everyone going to a nightclub where alcohol is served to be carrying a gun.

 

[Ernie S.]

Illegal firearms are.... illegal. You want more laws to make them more illegal? The solution you are presenting will not solve that, it will just make it more likely for a firearm to be illgal - for no other purpose than to do so.

If you want to attack the problem of illegal firearms, then take away the source of money buying them. This is driven by the drug trade. Make drugs legal and you remove the money paying for the illegal guns.

But we won't do that because it would actually help solve the problem. And there is money in the problem. Money for the DEA, money for police departments, money for governments. The problem may hurt people, but it also pays a lot of salaries. So don't hold your breath for any solution that will solve anything. Too many people make too much money solving the problem to want the problem to go away.

I don't want to make anything illegal "more illegal". That would be nonsensical. Since a tax is constitutional, I ask the question "would increasing the price reduce demand?"

I agree that the war on drugs is no small part of the funding for these murders. I'm not going to support legalizing smack and other opiates for recreational use, as these drugs were used by foreign powers to destructive effect in China not so long ago. But we don't need to be such militant prudes or destroy the lives of young people by labeling them felons over what they do to themselves.

No. It would not reduce the demand. As I said, increasing the price would only affect people who buy legally and they are not the problem.

While heroin is certainly a destructive drug, what you decide to put into your body is your decision and none of my business - nor the business of the government. It would be far cheaper to provide you with free rehab than to put you in prison for it, and considerably more productive. It would also allow you the opportunity to sue the supplier if the quality was bad. But that would cost law enforcement a lot of money, so it won't happen. For our own good, of course.

It would be far cheaper to give heroin addicts all the heroin they want for free. 6 months and the problem takes care of itself.

 

[YouthDebate]

The answer is simple. Make everyone carry a handgun or shotgun wherever they go. School kids starting in kindergarten should be armed with something small like a 22 and should graduate to a semi-automatic by high school. If everyone is carrying a gun, we'll all be safer. It's especially important for everyone going to a nightclub where alcohol is served to be carrying a gun.

Coming from a UK background I find it hard to believe such a system would result in increased safety. I can see the logic but it draws on Mutually Assured Destruction principles, no one will nuke because we will all start firing off. Better than MAD would be having no nukes so surely the same logic can apply here?

Semi-automatics in high school? Coupled with puberty hormones? I cannot believe that this would reduce gun violence, perhaps you could explain it further than; If everyone is carrying a gun, we'll all be safer. Or is this as simple as you can reduce your argument?

 

[editec]

Far too many people who feel like they have nothing to lose

 

[Geaux4it]

Far too many people who feel like they have nothing to lose

Yep- Not much out there today for our youth to hang their hats on

-Geaux

 

[racewright]

This get ride of guns because of gun deaths is total bullshit. If its lives you wish to save there are plenty of other needed help to saves lives . like a better economy so the less fortunate can go to work and not beat each other to death.

 

[Geaux4it]

This is not about gun deaths, but about gun owners. Just look at what we allow the government to screw up on a daily basis. They destroy everything they touch. The fact that I and many, many others today enjoy the continued use of our firearms is the only reason we still have them.

That's because we'll not let you have them!

Again, the anti-gun loon movement is about disarmament of all law abiding citizens. For them, its a marathon, not a sprint to the final outcome

-Geaux

 

[Delta4Embassy]

There has been a lot of talk about mass shooting incidents.
What I see in that talk are many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearms in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are your thoughts on gun violence in America?
What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and make a dent in the 99% of gun violence in our country?

Could repeal the 2nd Amendment, outlaw private firearms ownership across the board, confoscate everyone's guns and melt them down, then hope psychos murder their victims with knives and barehands again like in the olden days.

 

[westwall]

There has been a lot of talk about mass shooting incidents.
What I see in that talk are many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearms in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are your thoughts on gun violence in America?
What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and make a dent in the 99% of gun violence in our country?

8% of the criminal population commits 80% of the violent crime in the USA. Keep them in prison forever.