How do we curtail gun violence?

[Politico]

There has been a lot of talk about mass shooting incidents.
What I see in that talk are many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearms in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are your thoughts on gun violence in America?
What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and make a dent in the 99% of gun violence in our country?

I think you identified the real problem right there. The hyping of assault weapons.

 

[PratchettFan]

With a comprehensive mental health program in conjunction with a fundamental change in American society and culture where violence is no longer perceived as a legitimate means of conflict resolution.

Unfortunately it’s easier to identify the appropriate solutions than to implement them.

Not even beginning to address the problem. Mental health is just the cure d'jour. This is not a mental health issue. Cultural certainly. This country was built by people who used guns to live and that has been passed down. Our ancestors were pioneers, not serfs. But the primary problem is economical. Too many people with too few options. Until you solve that, you are going nowhere.

You are one of the few people who has realized this. If we're going to get serious about stopping mass violence, we must regulate the murder industry much more tightly. The Wrongpublican goal of a completely deregulated economy just isn't working, and hasn't worked, and will never work. We need more federal laws regulating the murder industry if we are to rein in these killer-barons and stop them from running amok.

So you agree that guns are not the problem and your solution is to restrict guns. That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[PratchettFan]

With a comprehensive mental health program in conjunction with a fundamental change in American society and culture where violence is no longer perceived as a legitimate means of conflict resolution.

Unfortunately it’s easier to identify the appropriate solutions than to implement them.

Not even beginning to address the problem. Mental health is just the cure d'jour. This is not a mental health issue. Cultural certainly. This country was built by people who used guns to live and that has been passed down. Our ancestors were pioneers, not serfs. But the primary problem is economical. Too many people with too few options. Until you solve that, you are going nowhere.

Cultural, Psychological... Is there a difference between these descriptions of the problem, really? If there is, forgive me for thinking the difference a bit semantic.

Let's look at a success story: Washington DC
First the numbers:
Crime rate in Washington, District of Columbia (DC): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics
Murders down from 239 to 88
So what changed?

I think people and their situations account for much of the homicide rate. Yes, that seems obvious, but it needs to be stated plainly that a mix of a harsh impoverishment with easy access to guns on the black market is from whence the gun violence flows. This is a two prong problem.

It is said that victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. There are a number of policy decisions to which this reduction is attributed. Improving the ability of the DC police to respond to violent crime, community outreach, gentrification, new jobs... some even credit improvements to the schools.
I think all of the above. All of the above indicate an improvement in opportunity, a shift in culture(psychology?) and a more component city government.

But no one is crediting gun control. That does not mean gun control is evil. That simply means that gun control alone does not solve a problem this massive. The problem has two prongs.

The murder rate in DC is still high, and is likely to remain high so long as the second prong of the problem exists, which is easy access to illegal guns. We cannot ignore that problem. The illegal guns need to be removed from the street.

I would agree it was all of the above. What it wasn't was gun control. I am not saying gun control is evil, I am saying it in ineffective and takes the focus away from the actual problem. It is a bandaid, and not even applied to the wound. It is an easy sound bite for politicians so they don't have to deal with the real issue.

 

[Geaux4it]

There has been a lot of talk about mass shooting incidents.
What I see in that talk are many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearms in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are your thoughts on gun violence in America?
What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and make a dent in the 99% of gun violence in our country?

Simple answer. We need more good guys with guns to kill the bad guys with guns. Law of attrition

-Geaux

 

[PratchettFan]

according to the ABA, the vast majority of people in the US charged with murder are represented either by public defenders or court-appointed private counsel. In other words, it is directly linked to poverty.

The republicans refuse to support most poverty initiatives and the democrats refuse to make any substantive changes to existing failed programs because they keep the recipients on the hook of voting for them. Until the GOP comes up with realistic alternatives to existing programs, or poor people stop voting for the democrats, nothing will change.

The best choice is to go after all guns because the political pressures on both sides against it might cause enough ice to break for some water to get through. I wouldn't hold my breathe, but until we completely rethink and retool these programs so that there are fewer gaps and fewer people being allowed to live their entire lives cradle to grave without ever having to support themselves, there is nothing that can be done to stop the violence or the murdering.

Once again.... The problem you agree is poverty and your solution is to go after guns.

 

[Anathema]

To those who have suggested significant changes to the mental health system needing to be put in place directly related to firearms, I have a question.....

If these things were put in place,..... Why would any intelligent gun owner ever allow themseves to be involved with the mental health system in any way?

I live in Massachusetts which already has significant mental health restrictions on firearms licenses and which REQUIRES mental health professionals to report any potentially dangerous gun owner to the state. I know of at least a dozen individuals who are gun owners who WOULD HAVE sought out professional mental health treatment for depression and other theraputic issues IF they weren't concerned that they ran the risk of being classified as "dangerous" and losing their license. I include myself in that number.

Just keep that in mind when you draw up your fantasies about how this would work.

 

[sameech]

according to the ABA, the vast majority of people in the US charged with murder are represented either by public defenders or court-appointed private counsel. In other words, it is directly linked to poverty.

The republicans refuse to support most poverty initiatives and the democrats refuse to make any substantive changes to existing failed programs because they keep the recipients on the hook of voting for them. Until the GOP comes up with realistic alternatives to existing programs, or poor people stop voting for the democrats, nothing will change.

The best choice is to go after all guns because the political pressures on both sides against it might cause enough ice to break for some water to get through. I wouldn't hold my breathe, but until we completely rethink and retool these programs so that there are fewer gaps and fewer people being allowed to live their entire lives cradle to grave without ever having to support themselves, there is nothing that can be done to stop the violence or the murdering.

Once again.... The problem you agree is poverty and your solution is to go after guns.

Yes since neither side is willing to go after poverty, then I am willing to resort to extortion--hold people up with their own guns.

 

[PratchettFan]

according to the ABA, the vast majority of people in the US charged with murder are represented either by public defenders or court-appointed private counsel. In other words, it is directly linked to poverty.

The republicans refuse to support most poverty initiatives and the democrats refuse to make any substantive changes to existing failed programs because they keep the recipients on the hook of voting for them. Until the GOP comes up with realistic alternatives to existing programs, or poor people stop voting for the democrats, nothing will change.

The best choice is to go after all guns because the political pressures on both sides against it might cause enough ice to break for some water to get through. I wouldn't hold my breathe, but until we completely rethink and retool these programs so that there are fewer gaps and fewer people being allowed to live their entire lives cradle to grave without ever having to support themselves, there is nothing that can be done to stop the violence or the murdering.

Once again.... The problem you agree is poverty and your solution is to go after guns.

Yes since neither side is willing to go after poverty, then I am willing to resort to extortion--hold people up with their own guns.

So we waste effort and resources to pursue a solution which will solve nothing, based upon the idea that it will extort people to do what you want? How has that worked out so far?

 

[sameech]

Once again.... The problem you agree is poverty and your solution is to go after guns.

Yes since neither side is willing to go after poverty, then I am willing to resort to extortion--hold people up with their own guns.

So we waste effort and resources to pursue a solution which will solve nothing, based upon the idea that it will extort people to do what you want? How has that worked out so far?

Brilliantly. It is why america is the "leader" of the "free" world.

 

[Nosmo King]

Let me see if I can wrap my head around this issue.

Gun violence increased with the fire power of the guns themselves. The popularity of the semi automatic firing and reloading systems made guns more lethal and gave the shooter the ability to change a 'shooting' into a 'mass shooting'. But the gun lovers will tell us that 'mass shootings' are no problem as they effect a very small part of the population. This attitude dismisses the typical neighborhood drive by shooting while ignoring the headline grabbing mass shootings.

Gun lovers will tell you that the gun itself is a benign implement, no more lethal as it sits on a tabletop than a baseball bat or a lawn dart or a home made pipe bomb. It's only when a mad man obtains a gun and uses it to massacre innocents in a playground or a theater or a shopping center we see the tragedy. But keeping guns from the mentally disturbed constitutes an infringement of their rights and no gun owner should be scrutinized by mental health professionals to determine competence and responsibility.

So we are essentially handcuffed to the gun lover's agenda. They do not want back ground checks, they do not want to ban the most lethal of weapons. They seem to want guns for everyone all the time. And so goes the spiral. As long as the gun lovers call the tune, we must dance to the rhythm of the Glock and AR-15.

 

[PratchettFan]

Let me see if I can wrap my head around this issue.

Gun violence increased with the fire power of the guns themselves. The popularity of the semi automatic firing and reloading systems made guns more lethal and gave the shooter the ability to change a 'shooting' into a 'mass shooting'. But the gun lovers will tell us that 'mass shootings' are no problem as they effect a very small part of the population. This attitude dismisses the typical neighborhood drive by shooting while ignoring the headline grabbing mass shootings.

Gun lovers will tell you that the gun itself is a benign implement, no more lethal as it sits on a tabletop than a baseball bat or a lawn dart or a home made pipe bomb. It's only when a mad man obtains a gun and uses it to massacre innocents in a playground or a theater or a shopping center we see the tragedy. But keeping guns from the mentally disturbed constitutes an infringement of their rights and no gun owner should be scrutinized by mental health professionals to determine competence and responsibility.

So we are essentially handcuffed to the gun lover's agenda. They do not want back ground checks, they do not want to ban the most lethal of weapons. They seem to want guns for everyone all the time. And so goes the spiral. As long as the gun lovers call the tune, we must dance to the rhythm of the Glock and AR-15.

You have failed to wrap your head around the issue.

 

[Nosmo King]

Let me see if I can wrap my head around this issue.

Gun violence increased with the fire power of the guns themselves. The popularity of the semi automatic firing and reloading systems made guns more lethal and gave the shooter the ability to change a 'shooting' into a 'mass shooting'. But the gun lovers will tell us that 'mass shootings' are no problem as they effect a very small part of the population. This attitude dismisses the typical neighborhood drive by shooting while ignoring the headline grabbing mass shootings.

Gun lovers will tell you that the gun itself is a benign implement, no more lethal as it sits on a tabletop than a baseball bat or a lawn dart or a home made pipe bomb. It's only when a mad man obtains a gun and uses it to massacre innocents in a playground or a theater or a shopping center we see the tragedy. But keeping guns from the mentally disturbed constitutes an infringement of their rights and no gun owner should be scrutinized by mental health professionals to determine competence and responsibility.

So we are essentially handcuffed to the gun lover's agenda. They do not want back ground checks, they do not want to ban the most lethal of weapons. They seem to want guns for everyone all the time. And so goes the spiral. As long as the gun lovers call the tune, we must dance to the rhythm of the Glock and AR-15.

You have failed to wrap your head around the issue.

So long as the gun lovers fail to proffer any solution, so long as the gun lovers fail to acknowledge that there is a problem with gun violence and so long as the gun lovers reject out of hand any and all suggestions to curb the problem, there will be no solution. And that's where I've wrapped my head. Apparently, we as a society must accept gun violence as the price of gun lover's intractability.

 

[PratchettFan]

Let me see if I can wrap my head around this issue.

Gun violence increased with the fire power of the guns themselves. The popularity of the semi automatic firing and reloading systems made guns more lethal and gave the shooter the ability to change a 'shooting' into a 'mass shooting'. But the gun lovers will tell us that 'mass shootings' are no problem as they effect a very small part of the population. This attitude dismisses the typical neighborhood drive by shooting while ignoring the headline grabbing mass shootings.

Gun lovers will tell you that the gun itself is a benign implement, no more lethal as it sits on a tabletop than a baseball bat or a lawn dart or a home made pipe bomb. It's only when a mad man obtains a gun and uses it to massacre innocents in a playground or a theater or a shopping center we see the tragedy. But keeping guns from the mentally disturbed constitutes an infringement of their rights and no gun owner should be scrutinized by mental health professionals to determine competence and responsibility.

So we are essentially handcuffed to the gun lover's agenda. They do not want back ground checks, they do not want to ban the most lethal of weapons. They seem to want guns for everyone all the time. And so goes the spiral. As long as the gun lovers call the tune, we must dance to the rhythm of the Glock and AR-15.

You have failed to wrap your head around the issue.

So long as the gun lovers fail to proffer any solution, so long as the gun lovers fail to acknowledge that there is a problem with gun violence and so long as the gun lovers reject out of hand any and all suggestions to curb the problem, there will be no solution. And that's where I've wrapped my head. Apparently, we as a society must accept gun violence as the price of gun lover's intractability.

Yes. As I said, you have failed to wrap your head around the issue. Guns are not the problem so any solution that centers on guns will solve nothing.

 

[Anathema]

So long as the gun lovers fail to proffer any solution, so long as the gun lovers fail to acknowledge that there is a problem with gun violence and so long as the gun lovers reject out of hand any and all suggestions to curb the problem, there will be no solution. And that's where I've wrapped my head. Apparently, we as a society must accept gun violence as the price of gun lover's intractability.

Gun owners have watched for four decades as our Rights have been eroded in the name of "safety" and nothing has improved. At some point maybe trying the idea of enforcing the THOUSANDS of existing laws might be an idea before adding new ones.

Gun owners understand that there is a problem with gun violence. We also realize that very rarely is it legal gun owners who are the ones at fault in these incidents. How about we start by putting criminals where they belong.... IN JAIL (or the ground) rather than continuing to allow them to roam the streets? Think that might help?

Any "Free" society must accept that a certain level of violence in inevitable. It's an unpleasant truth but that's part of Freedom. There is an incredibly long tradition of gun ownership here in the United States and that's not going away without a fight; whether it's purely political or spills over into physical combat as well.

 

[Bush92]

Enforce the laws already on the books. The risk of infringing on the 2nd Amendment is too great to have a total ban. Also should crack down on drugs. I think many of these shootings are done by meth-heads.

 

[Nosmo King]

So long as the gun lovers fail to proffer any solution, so long as the gun lovers fail to acknowledge that there is a problem with gun violence and so long as the gun lovers reject out of hand any and all suggestions to curb the problem, there will be no solution. And that's where I've wrapped my head. Apparently, we as a society must accept gun violence as the price of gun lover's intractability.

Gun owners have watched for four decades as our Rights have been eroded in the name of "safety" and nothing has improved. At some point maybe trying the idea of enforcing the THOUSANDS of existing laws might be an idea before adding new ones.

Gun owners understand that there is a problem with gun violence. We also realize that very rarely is it legal gun owners who are the ones at fault in these incidents. How about we start by putting criminals where they belong.... IN JAIL (or the ground) rather than continuing to allow them to roam the streets? Think that might help?

Any "Free" society must accept that a certain level of violence in inevitable. It's an unpleasant truth but that's part of Freedom. There is an incredibly long tradition of gun ownership here in the United States and that's not going away without a fight; whether it's purely political or spills over into physical combat as well.

And in cases where previously law abiding citizens take a semi automatic to a school, I guess the resulting carnage is the price we must pay to do nothing to stop that act. I wonder why that previously law abiding citizen thought that a semi automatic was a wise choice to begin with?

And it serves as a convenient rationalization to claim that law abiding citizens are not the problem until indeed they are. Adam Lanza serves as a case in point, as does John Hinckley.

 

[racewright]

Get rid of cities

 

[whitehall]

Enforce the laws on the books and prevent people who are undergoing court ordered psychiatric counseling from buying guns and maybe extend it to any psychiatric disorder. If the gun grabbers would demonstrate their sincerity by indicting the Attorney General for gun running it might be a positive step. The crazy stunt of sending thousands of guns to Mexico should put the A.G. and the ATF under psychiatric care.

 

[KGB]

So long as the gun lovers fail to proffer any solution, so long as the gun lovers fail to acknowledge that there is a problem with gun violence and so long as the gun lovers reject out of hand any and all suggestions to curb the problem, there will be no solution. And that's where I've wrapped my head. Apparently, we as a society must accept gun violence as the price of gun lover's intractability.

Gun owners have watched for four decades as our Rights have been eroded in the name of "safety" and nothing has improved. At some point maybe trying the idea of enforcing the THOUSANDS of existing laws might be an idea before adding new ones.

Gun owners understand that there is a problem with gun violence. We also realize that very rarely is it legal gun owners who are the ones at fault in these incidents. How about we start by putting criminals where they belong.... IN JAIL (or the ground) rather than continuing to allow them to roam the streets? Think that might help?

Any "Free" society must accept that a certain level of violence in inevitable. It's an unpleasant truth but that's part of Freedom. There is an incredibly long tradition of gun ownership here in the United States and that's not going away without a fight; whether it's purely political or spills over into physical combat as well.

And in cases where previously law abiding citizens take a semi automatic to a school, I guess the resulting carnage is the price we must pay to do nothing to stop that act. I wonder why that previously law abiding citizen thought that a semi automatic was a wise choice to begin with?

And it serves as a convenient rationalization to claim that law abiding citizens are not the problem until indeed they are. Adam Lanza serves as a case in point, as does John Hinckley.

So, your suggestion is to blame the instrument of their evil as opposed to the evil that possessed them. Typical lib attitude....no one is ever accountable for their actions.

 

[Darkwind]

With a comprehensive mental health program in conjunction with a fundamental change in American society and culture where violence is no longer perceived as a legitimate means of conflict resolution.

Unfortunately it’s easier to identify the appropriate solutions than to implement them.

Not even beginning to address the problem. Mental health is just the cure d'jour. This is not a mental health issue. Cultural certainly. This country was built by people who used guns to live and that has been passed down. Our ancestors were pioneers, not serfs. But the primary problem is economical. Too many people with too few options. Until you solve that, you are going nowhere.

You are one of the few people who has realized this. If we're going to get serious about stopping mass violence, we must regulate the murder industry much more tightly. The Wrongpublican goal of a completely deregulated economy just isn't working, and hasn't worked, and will never work. We need more federal laws regulating the murder industry if we are to rein in these killer-barons and stop them from running amok.

This is why gun violence and the poor stand little to no chance in this country. People like this actually believe that the economy has been deregulated when in fact, the opposite is true. The poor remain poor and blinded by rage and violence because they have no means to reacquire their dignity and self worth. Instead, their hatred and rage is fueled by passing blame to people who are easy scapegoats.

And for what? So that they can continue to rule the 'unwashed masses'.....