Hobby Lobby may close all of its stores

[bodecea]

So...have they closed yet?

 

[Jarlaxle]

You haven't been reading the thread or the linked stories, have you. (That is not a question.)

 

[Granny]

I'm really going to hate it if Hobby Lobby does close its doors. It's got such cool stuff and a great assortment of all the different craft areas - not to mention the great home decorating stuff.

It's a damned shame that the most deviant, useless, miserable and stupid of our society get away with this bull shit. Religious persecution and religious oppression should be a hate crime. The truth is, when every religious object ... Bibles, Torahs, churches, Synagogues, temples or other places of worship, along with any non-religious symbols that might be remotely related to worship (Christmas trees, candles, menorrahs, Easter eggs, etc.) are completely burned and obliterated from society, this bunch of people will still not be satisfied. There will always be something for these nimrods to bitch about because it's offensive or hurting their feelings.

 

[FA_Q2]

So let me get this straight. Hobby Lobby will shutter the business rather than comply with the Affordable Healthcare Act. Because they say the Act violates Biblical teachings. Even though the Bible is SILENT on abortion, these Theology students at Hobby Lobby claim Biblical principles are at stake.

This warp zeal is on exhibition around the world. It's the same logic used by the Taliban.

Plan B doesn't cause abortion. At least according to the Christians it doesn't.


Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter

This Christian believes it does. He says so right here:

A new government healthcare mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.

It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one.

And again I ask, precisely which Biblical principles? Chapter and verse.

Irrelevant. It does not matter even though you were given a clear response by TK. The question avoids the real point entirely. YOU do not get to pick what convictions others have or what they are to base them on. It is his religious belief, no matter how whacky or wrong others might think it is matters not.

The right to practice your religious convictions is not filtered through others interpretations of what those religious tenants should be. It is enough that he says it is against his religion. Nothing more is required.

 

[FA_Q2]

So let me get this straight. Hobby Lobby will shutter the business rather than comply with the Affordable Healthcare Act. Because they say the Act violates Biblical teachings. Even though the Bible is SILENT on abortion, these Theology students at Hobby Lobby claim Biblical principles are at stake.

This warp zeal is on exhibition around the world. It's the same logic used by the Taliban.

Did you read the article? Its about freedom from the govt telling us how to live and what to believe.

Its about a company standing behind its principles and beliefs--------something you libtards do not even comprehend. you have become mindless sheep to your messiah the great maobama. you are a pathetic bunch of losers. you make me sick.

I suppose a lot of people said the same thing about social Security back in 1934. But the same folks howling then surely found Social Security a great help in their old age. I'm sure the Conservatives lambasted President Roosevelt as a 'messiah' due to his popularity and policies. But then they found it easier to make ends meet during their dotage and they made Social Security the third rail of American politics.

Are you ready to shout down what could well be a vastly popular and life saving program? Would you still think that insurance companies could deny you coverage? Or provide coverage so expensive (what with the success of Trickle Down economics) that many simply cannot afford it? Splendid choices there!

The 2 concepts are completely separate given that one has nothing to do with the problem in the first place – violating religious principles. There are no religious arguments against social security – particularly since the individual in question is the payer and holder of such a policy whereas the health insurance mandate requires the employer to hold the policy.

Also, very popular? What have you been reading that indicates that is even remotely likely?

 

[FA_Q2]

It would be helpful if I knew where you were going with your argument.

We are not a secular nation. The fact that it accepts many types of religious faiths, and the fact that there is a Christian majority that exists as it is now within the United States should tell you otherwise. Moreover, it should be telling that some of the signers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were religious in some form or another. Rights are never guaranteed, and that premise is flawed on it's face. There exists men and women it the upper echelons of our government who care not for your "guaranteed rights" one way or the other. It is why they consistently infringe them on a routine basis.

Even the ancients knew that what was forming in the a woman's womb before it was born was a child. They didn't need flawed science and secular or political dogma to tell them otherwise.

The basic "flaw" in their argument is that we, as a people, derive our "rights" from man, or government. This leads into their argument that "man" or "government" can take away our "rights" as they see fit.

Our "rights" come from our creator and, as such, can NOT be denied by man.

As much as this new generation of so-called "progressives" (code for communists) seeks to devour our nation and turn it into a secular hell-hole, where the mantra of "if it feels good, do it", they MUST establish and promote the notion that there is NO God, and, in as much as, deny our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to life and liberty.

Our society here in the Western world of 2013 is a secular society. God's laws are not adjudicated in our courts, unlike Sharia law in the Middle East. Individual interpretations of Scripture do not provide cover for breaking national laws. We are not a Christian theocracy.

It seems Conservatives are more than willing to protect what they see as 'rights' through a political/religious filter, much like the Taliban. Is it also 'religious' if you refuse to pay taxes to support a war machine in the Pentagon? Where are the Conservatives who conveniently hide behind a perceived pulpit when other religious 'rights' are questioned?

More ad homonyms… not really surprised I guess but get real. This is not ‘Taliban’ in nature at all. No one is demanding that YOU follow any religious tenants at all. They are simply trying to exercise their rights to follow their own religious tenants. That is something that the government has simply made illegal – a direct violation of the constitution. Ernie already posted the question to you on the last page pointing our exactly how that is a violation and you conveniently ignored the premise. Likely because you cannot get around it.

Further, it is certainly worth noting that while this nation IS a secular nation you are misusing the concept by applying to something that this nation’s founding was NOT based on. You claim that because we are secular, the nation did not recognize that rights come from God and that is blatantly false. The very base of all our governmental core concepts come from is that rights are NOT granted by government but rather naturally intrinsic in us all. They used the words ‘endowed by our creator.’ The concept that rights are granted by god or nature is very clear in our founding documents whether or not you want to call the nation secular. To ignore that is a gross misrepresentation on the principals that this nation stands on and is to completely misunderstand the government that we have (or are supposed to have be that as it may).

 

[Katzndogz]

So...have they closed yet?

Not since they won their injunction.

 

[Nosmo King]

Plan B doesn't cause abortion. At least according to the Christians it doesn't.


Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter

This Christian believes it does. He says so right here:

A new government healthcare mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.

It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. /QUOTE] And again I ask, precisely which Biblical principles? Chapter and verse.

Irrelevant. It does not matter even though you were given a clear response by TK. The question avoids the real point entirely. YOU do not get to pick what convictions others have or what they are to base them on. It is his religious belief, no matter how whacky or wrong others might think it is matters not.

The right to practice your religious convictions is not filtered through others interpretations of what those religious tenants should be. It is enough that he says it is against his religion. Nothing more is required.

But an employer can, and should according to the ethics demonstrated by the Right Wing here, be able to avoid the national law, deny his employees healthcare, all to satisfy his interpretation of what he calls "Biblical principles"?

And should his interpretation of both national and biblical law cause him to commit any other infraction, can he hide behind the billowing skirts of "Biblical principles" and 'religious freedom'?

 

[FA_Q2]

The author of the piece is somewhat ignorant about Plan B. It is a contraceptive. However, the 5-day-after pill is an abortifacient. While the 5-day-after pill is not yet mandated, it is probably just a matter of time before it is if no one puts up a fight right here, right now.

Nevertheless, some religious people are opposed to contraceptives, not just abortifacients, and they should not be forced to pay for contraceptives against their religious beliefs.

You are permitting an extremely dangerous precedent by going along with this just because you happen to like this particular mandate at this time. I am not opposed to contraceptives, but I am very, very much opposed to government mandates forcing people to do things they would not otherwise do, particularly those that violate religious beliefs.

It is sickening to see people being okay with this.

For the most part, I believe if a company provides health insurance, they should provide it so it covers the needs of everyone and everything, but I also understand their point of not wanting to cover drugs they consider to be tools for abortion. I'm not really going to take a side here, but what I do find hilarious is that Republicans have tried to repeal the entire ACA 40 times knowing they had zero chance of success, when in that time they could have addressed this issue and voted to change it. Had a change on this matter passed the House, the Senate might actually have gone along with it, and we wouldn't be having this argument to begin with. This is one of those things that many moderates would probably agree with, but hard line Republicans do not want to work to make anything better; they just want to tear down anything and everything associated with Democrats, and this is why they continue to lose the war.

of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but that's not the way insurance works. The employer buys a particular policy from an underwriter that covers as many employees as possible and with as wide of a range of services as possible (or as little).

If Hobby Lobby (which they do) refuses to have abortion coverage included ( and the other methods of murder, morning after pill, etc) that is THEIR PERROGATIVE as the policy holder. THEY and THEY ALONE are the policy holder.

Any employee who chooses to forgo the coverage is entitled to do that. Now comes the government and, without legal mandate, tells Hobby Lobby they MUST cover abortion coverage under this BS "healthcare law" and Hobby Lobby said no. The courts have thus far upheld Hobby Lobby's decision.

This is the United States of America. The land where our freedoms are being stolen from us, one at a time.

The crux right there and the fact that the courts have been upholding this. The issue is pretty clear even if half the political spectrum wants to ignore it.

 

[Redfish]

This Christian believes it does. He says so right here:



Irrelevant. It does not matter even though you were given a clear response by TK. The question avoids the real point entirely. YOU do not get to pick what convictions others have or what they are to base them on. It is his religious belief, no matter how whacky or wrong others might think it is matters not.

The right to practice your religious convictions is not filtered through others interpretations of what those religious tenants should be. It is enough that he says it is against his religion. Nothing more is required.

But an employer can, and should according to the ethics demonstrated by the Right Wing here, be able to avoid the national law, deny his employees healthcare, all to satisfy his interpretation of what he calls "Biblical principles"?

And should his interpretation of both national and biblical law cause him to commit any other infraction, can he hide behind the billowing skirts of "Biblical principles" and 'religious freedom'?

an employer can offer whatever benefit package it wants to offer. Employees can choose not to work for an employer if they do not like the benefit package.

Its called freedom, something you left wing assholes do not understand.

 

[FA_Q2]

This Christian believes it does. He says so right here:

Irrelevant. It does not matter even though you were given a clear response by TK. The question avoids the real point entirely. YOU do not get to pick what convictions others have or what they are to base them on. It is his religious belief, no matter how whacky or wrong others might think it is matters not.

The right to practice your religious convictions is not filtered through others interpretations of what those religious tenants should be. It is enough that he says it is against his religion. Nothing more is required.

But an employer can, and should according to the ethics demonstrated by the Right Wing here, be able to avoid the national law, deny his employees healthcare, all to satisfy his interpretation of what he calls "Biblical principles"?

And should his interpretation of both national and biblical law cause him to commit any other infraction, can he hide behind the billowing skirts of "Biblical principles" and 'religious freedom'?

Fix your tags – this is the second time in this thread where you screwed them up.

He can challenge (not ignore as that is NOT what he is doing) any national law that is against the constitution. That is where you are getting hung up with – and adding yet more attacks. There is no ‘hiding behind the skirts’ of anything here. He is challenging the laws head on (and winning btw as the courts resoundingly disagree with your assertions) based on the simple fact that the law blatantly disregards the constitution in this manner.

You don’t seem to understand the basic principal here, this law is specifically demanding that he break a basic tenant of his personal faith. The law is simply not allowed to do that. ANY law that demands you break faith without extraordinary circumstances (such as harming or removing the freedoms of others) is outright unconstitutional.

Now, such a tenant does not apply to something like human sacrifice (murder law) or molestations (as the case in many religious cults) because those are violations of the rights of OTHERS. In the same manner that the government has no right to force religious tenant on you, you cannot do so on others. In this case, it is crystal clear that is not the case. The employee is not only free to not work there but more importantly they are also free to seek medical coverage that includes birth control. Hell, the government is even going to subsidize it. The employee’s freedoms remain wholly unaffected and their safety unchanged. Even though the employee has lost no rights, you still feel the need to take the employers rights away.

You know, I think that the left in general has lost a basic understanding of WHAT an employer really is. They are not entities of the state or some other concept; they are CITIZENS and have all the rights that we all share. Every single argument that I see coming out of the left when it comes to businesses and employers it seems that they have forgotten that they actually are people with the EXACT same rights that we all enjoy. It is always a climb uphill as they consistently refer to the employee’s wants and desirers at the expense of the employers RIGHTS. That is a blatantly incorrect way of looking at things. The only time that you should be removing employer’s rights are when they are in direct conflict of employee’s grater rights. That is not the case here at all.

 

[RandallFlagg]

It would be helpful if I knew where you were going with your argument.

We are not a secular nation. The fact that it accepts many types of religious faiths, and the fact that there is a Christian majority that exists as it is now within the United States should tell you otherwise. Moreover, it should be telling that some of the signers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were religious in some form or another. Rights are never guaranteed, and that premise is flawed on it's face. There exists men and women it the upper echelons of our government who care not for your "guaranteed rights" one way or the other. It is why they consistently infringe them on a routine basis.

Even the ancients knew that what was forming in the a woman's womb before it was born was a child. They didn't need flawed science and secular or political dogma to tell them otherwise.

The basic "flaw" in their argument is that we, as a people, derive our "rights" from man, or government. This leads into their argument that "man" or "government" can take away our "rights" as they see fit.

Our "rights" come from our creator and, as such, can NOT be denied by man.

As much as this new generation of so-called "progressives" (code for communists) seeks to devour our nation and turn it into a secular hell-hole, where the mantra of "if it feels good, do it", they MUST establish and promote the notion that there is NO God, and, in as much as, deny our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to life and liberty.

Our society here in the Western world of 2013 is a secular society. God's laws are not adjudicated in our courts, unlike Sharia law in the Middle East. Individual interpretations of Scripture do not provide cover for breaking national laws. We are not a Christian theocracy.

It seems Conservatives are more than willing to protect what they see as 'rights' through a political/religious filter, much like the Taliban. Is it also 'religious' if you refuse to pay taxes to support a war machine in the Pentagon? Where are the Conservatives who conveniently hide behind a perceived pulpit when other religious 'rights' are questioned?

I would respectfully ask to read, then re-read this:

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.....


You see, sir, it's not the religious who are imposing THEIR beliefs on anyone. They are merely stating that "these are are beliefs and what we hold to". No one is FORCING ANY employee to work for Hobby Lobby. No one.

Since you enjoy invoking your "code words" "Sharia law" and "Taliban" in order to belittle those who put into practice what they believe (without forcing compliance from any "non-believer") let me put this to you:

The only "Taliban-esqe" entity here, is the United States government who, without legal precedent, has ordered Hobby Lobby to abandon their principles in favor of secular-humanism. Sounds just like the former Soviet Union.

Welcome to the brave new world. Now, go back and read the Declaration again and tell me that this is America.

 

[Redfish]

The basic "flaw" in their argument is that we, as a people, derive our "rights" from man, or government. This leads into their argument that "man" or "government" can take away our "rights" as they see fit.

Our "rights" come from our creator and, as such, can NOT be denied by man.

As much as this new generation of so-called "progressives" (code for communists) seeks to devour our nation and turn it into a secular hell-hole, where the mantra of "if it feels good, do it", they MUST establish and promote the notion that there is NO God, and, in as much as, deny our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to life and liberty.

Our society here in the Western world of 2013 is a secular society. God's laws are not adjudicated in our courts, unlike Sharia law in the Middle East. Individual interpretations of Scripture do not provide cover for breaking national laws. We are not a Christian theocracy.

It seems Conservatives are more than willing to protect what they see as 'rights' through a political/religious filter, much like the Taliban. Is it also 'religious' if you refuse to pay taxes to support a war machine in the Pentagon? Where are the Conservatives who conveniently hide behind a perceived pulpit when other religious 'rights' are questioned?

I would respectfully ask to read, then re-read this:

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.....


You see, sir, it's not the religious who are imposing THEIR beliefs on anyone. They are merely stating that "these are are beliefs and what we hold to". No one is FORCING ANY employee to work for Hobby Lobby. No one.

Since you enjoy invoking your "code words" "Sharia law" and "Taliban" in order to belittle those who put into practice what they believe (without forcing compliance from any "non-believer") let me put this to you:

The only "Taliban-esqe" entity here, is the United States government who, without legal precedent, has ordered Hobby Lobby to abandon their principles in favor of secular-humanism. Sounds just like the former Soviet Union.

Welcome to the brave new world. Now, go back and read the Declaration again and tell me that this is America.

Great post. If only the left would grasp those simple truths.

 

[RandallFlagg]

The left can not grasp these simple truths. It has been brainwashed and propagandized out of them. They have been taught to despise Christians in the United States. And why? Because Christians (for the most part) don't fight back. The left knows this. This makes Christians easy targets for the lefts' vitriol.

I applaud Hobby Lobby. It's high time that Christians stand up and say "enough". The left LOVES to "flex their little limp wrists" in court and I, for one, am glad when they get their weasel asses spanked by the same institutions (the courts) that they love to destroy America from within with.


Right on Hobby Lobby!!

 

[shintao]

Imposing your religious beliefs on others, while demanding special treatment under the law, is not religious freedom.

LOL, you have it totally wrong. Hobby Lobby is not trying to impose its views on anyone. It just wants to be allowed to live by them.

On the other hand, the obama government is forcing its views on everyone and invoking financial penalties on any who do not comply with the agenda and beliefs of the great chairman moabama.

The left wing government is FORCING its views on everyone------------that, my ignorant friend, is a clear violation of the constitution.

Are you missing this???? "our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance"

That means they are forcing their beliefs on their workers. Understand now??

 

[shintao]

The left can not grasp these simple truths. It has been brainwashed and propagandized out of them. They have been taught to despise Christians in the United States. And why? Because Christians (for the most part) don't fight back. The left knows this. This makes Christians easy targets for the lefts' vitriol.

I applaud Hobby Lobby. It's high time that Christians stand up and say "enough". The left LOVES to "flex their little limp wrists" in court and I, for one, am glad when they get their weasel asses spanked by the same institutions (the courts) that they love to destroy America from within with.


Right on Hobby Lobby!!

But crazy christos want to be despised, hated, and suffer for their beliefs. We are doing them a favor!!! by not fight back, you mean the ME slaughter on your crusade never happened, or this christo idiot of hobby lobby forced his views on workers? Actually, I fail to see the left fighting the christo idiots, and they make themselves easy targets.

And if you stand up you will be blaspheming your god, how dare you go against his word. You will burn in hell, burn in the lake of fire.

 

[FA_Q2]

Imposing your religious beliefs on others, while demanding special treatment under the law, is not religious freedom.

LOL, you have it totally wrong. Hobby Lobby is not trying to impose its views on anyone. It just wants to be allowed to live by them.

On the other hand, the obama government is forcing its views on everyone and invoking financial penalties on any who do not comply with the agenda and beliefs of the great chairman moabama.

The left wing government is FORCING its views on everyone------------that, my ignorant friend, is a clear violation of the constitution.

Are you missing this???? "our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance"

That means they are forcing their beliefs on their workers. Understand now??

In no way shape or form does the business deny the employee the ability to seek medical insurance that covers abortions or anything related to abortion drugs so no, you are incorrect. They are not forcing their beliefs on anyone. The employee has the ability to have abortions, get coverage that pays for them and do anything else that they see fit in this arena.

The government has required the employer to cover abortions. They are not allowed to not participate in covering those medical procedures that they find abhorrent. The government is FORCING something on the employer.

I don’t think you actually understand what force is. I find that rather surprising as the concept is rather simple. Here is a hint – force has nothing to do whatsoever with providing something. If something is NOT provided, you have not forced someone to abstain – you simply are not providing for that particular want. I know, revolutionary, isn’t it.

 

[RandallFlagg]

The left can not grasp these simple truths. It has been brainwashed and propagandized out of them. They have been taught to despise Christians in the United States. And why? Because Christians (for the most part) don't fight back. The left knows this. This makes Christians easy targets for the lefts' vitriol.

I applaud Hobby Lobby. It's high time that Christians stand up and say "enough". The left LOVES to "flex their little limp wrists" in court and I, for one, am glad when they get their weasel asses spanked by the same institutions (the courts) that they love to destroy America from within with.


Right on Hobby Lobby!!

But crazy christos want to be despised, hated, and suffer for their beliefs. We are doing them a favor!!! by not fight back, you mean the ME slaughter on your crusade never happened, or this christo idiot of hobby lobby forced his views on workers? Actually, I fail to see the left fighting the christo idiots, and they make themselves easy targets.

And if you stand up you will be blaspheming your god, how dare you go against his word. You will burn in hell, burn in the lake of fire.

Are you on drugs!?

 

[Jarlaxle]

If not...he probably needs to be!

 

[RandallFlagg]

If not...he probably needs to be!

No Doubt.....