Hate Speech in Quran

[Kalam]

looks like we have achieved focus, my ishmaelite cousin.

you are certainly no fanatic, and i am feeling that you prostrate yourself before your god at least three times daily.

i look forward to reading your answers to the outrageous interpretations some of the judeo-christian fanatics are giving to specific passages from your holy book as i deliver them into the protection you and i can give this discussion with the help of the holy father

i stress discussion AND NOT debate. i am what i am --- you are what you are --- i respect and revere the oneness that makes us the same yet different --- which puts us on a point of contention i am experiencing.

in my self, i know the Lord YHVH and the Lord Allah to be the same individual using different names with different people.

what say you?

I agree. Defending Islam has always been a learning experience for me. I'll attempt to explain one concept or another and then marvel at the ignorance and inadequacy of my own interpretation when I look back on it a few months later. The discussion-debate dichotomy exists simply because some people are civil and others are not. Attitudes like yours are conducive to discussion, but any conversation you attempt to have with someone who is closed-minded and arrogant will quickly devolve into a debate or something worse. I try to temper those poor qualities in myself so that discussion is possible, but I don't always succeed. The most we can do is pray for guidance.

I think that most sincerely religious people attempt to worship Allah, but some miss the mark. He guides whom He wills and leaves others in error, including some who claim to be Muslims.

i say "god is good. god is great. thank you god for paying the freight!"
Baruch Ha Shem! Alla-huh Akbar! Aho Mitakuye Oyasin!
(Lakota: Let it be so for all my relations!)

(isn't free access wonderful? not thirty years ago, we would have been paying by the minute to meet this way online. the next time i go do some online bill paying i intend to become a supporting member of this board. well worth the investment to keep this zoo free.)

the rabbi who made me bar mitzvah, taught that we are all one people and that the racial and cultural strife that we experience in this era is the end result of god's punishing the arrogance of people over the tower of babel. he taught us that to heal this bad karma on all people, we have to realize that the differences in our religions and ways of life evolved because of the scattering of the people and confounding of the tongues and the differing resources available to the different cultures scattered about the globe. recognizing that, we need to embrace each other's traditions, ceremonies and documents in peace, love and joy AND NOT fear, loathing, death and destruction if we people , as a SPECIES are ever to regain grace.

If you don't mind my asking, are you a practicing Jew? If so, which religious interpretation do you follow? If not, what are you?

in this particular coagulation of brain farts, the theme is one of fanatic hebrew-christians attacking the whole of islam and in fact it's most holy document as being THE fuel firing arab terrorism against israel and its allies.

the various sects of jews and christians have always been adept at making the bible say as god's truth, whatever truth it was they were selling. it appears that some think they can play the same game with the Qu'ran
(is there something wrong in spelling that "koran"?)

Islam has always had its detractors, so these folks aren't blazing any new trails. I don't think they'd have much interest in Islam if it weren't for their misplaced anger over September 11th.

There's nothing wrong with using the "Koran" spelling, but the letters in "Qur'an" seem to correspond more accurately to their Arabic counterparts.

the christians have a long and bloody history of killing each other over conflicting interpretations. during the crusades, there were more christians left dead at the hands of other christians all along the routes to the holy land. in the holy land, they killed more christians than muslims.

there is even one account of a group of arab christians who were slaughtered when they came running out to greet the crusaders who they thought had come to liberate them from moslem rule. \

looks like an arab, dresses like an arab, must be an arab. kill it before it multiplies. sound familiar?

Certainly, but we can all agree that Christians don't have the market cornered as far as injustice is concerned. Some of them do seem to be fond of attempting to whitewash their religion's history, though.

sadly, i think human society has actually devolved further in its moral value structures and ethical actions than during the middle ages.

This raises a lot of interesting philosophical questions...

in america, sects of orthodox jews have often fought with each other in the streets on holy days because of disagreements in interpretation of torah.

prepare to receive and speak to the passages that are being posted as proof texts supporting the endemic islamophobia at usmb. i promise they'll be delivered in a readable form without the original poster's vitriol attached.

Very well.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Then come at me with something other than a teaching that does not even follow the beliefs of informed Muslims. Prove me wrong by articulating points rooted in logic and clear thought, not just by dismissing evidence because it does not fit your worldview.

Your contributions to this thread have given me the impression that you aren't here to have your beliefs challenged. You seem rather convinced that you're correct and that all of my opinions on the subject were borne of ignorance or some sort of indoctrination. Excuse me if this isn't the case.

You haven't tried to challenge my beliefs, whatever you think they are. All you have done is make outrageous claims that the Quran is word for word perfect as it was given to Muhammad by Gabriel, and dismissed any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Kalam]

You haven't tried to challenge my beliefs, whatever you think they are. All you have done is make outrageous claims that the Quran is word for word perfect as it was given to Muhammad by Gabriel, and dismissed any evidence to the contrary.

I can't dismiss what you've failed to provide.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Again you prove my point. I did provide evidence, go back and look.

 

[Barb]

Who are you?

This seems to be the only USMB-er to reply to this thread who is Muslim. Mebbe if you lay off insulting him, his history, scholarship, culture and beliefs you could actually hold a dialogue. Only a complete ignoramus believes the Muslim has contributed nothing to Modern Civilization.

The fact is they invented it. When the ancestors of Westerners were crawling around huts in the dark, the Ottomans were charting the stars and building palaces decorated with breath-taking art.

Ugly is as ugly does -- or speaks. On this thread, that ain't Kalam.

It is when he rejects truth in the support of ideology.

I am willing to give credit where credit where it is due, but Muslims did not invent civilization. The Ottomans got a great deal of their knowledge from Greece, Egypt, and China. If you want to give them credit for something, try modern medicine, not astronomy.

Nope, astronomy too, and they translated the Greek, or else the west would not have experienced its enlightenment. WE'D still be living in caves, or at least we would have a bit longer than we did.

 

[Barb]

And you think they are all the same because you never studied history.

uh, you know there's more then one "version" of history, right? Er....probably not.

But to answer your passive-agressive, psuedo question: No, it's because I believe all paths lead to God.

I see, you are so mush headed that you think that all paths lead to God. That means there is no difference between the Aztec who cuts out a persons heart and the Buddhists who do not believe that God exists. That indicates exactly how little you actually know, or care, about religion.

All who wander are not lost. I don't know where that came from, and I'm not looking it up, but it fits.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)....

You can continue here to read:

Quotes from the Qur'an

Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

Take any old testament scripture that sounds war like and imply that by todays standards it's hate speech.

 

[Madeline]

Q

uantum Windbag wrote in part:

Quote: Originally Posted by Kalam
Come off it. I'll put up with a lot, but I won't have a kafir try to use religious concepts he doesn't understand to talk down to me. I also won't be accused of dishonesty by someone who is assuredly far more ignorant of the subject being discussed than I am.

What makes you think I do not understand them? It isn't like any of the concepts i have used take any deep understanding, I haven't tried to speak of the mysteries of Islam, just the stuff that anyone who has a basic understanding of Islam would know.

Honestly, Quantum Windbag, what possible use is this sort of disrespect? It is clear whatever you may know of the Muslim faith, you appreciate nothing. There is no religion so old, followed by so many, that has as its basic message "hate other people". You've even manged to screw up the beliefs of the Ancient Aztecs. It is grossly unfair to reference their human sacrifice practices without a context. How can you reasonably expect Kalam -- or any Muslim -- to dialogue with you about his spiritual beliefs if you commence the dialogue by announcing that you hold them in severe disrepute?

Of course there are Holy Muslims. There are Muslims whose lives have been transformed by their faith. There are people who are on a spiritual quest who convert to the Muslim Faith. Malcolm X, for starters. The paths that lead to God are not only those you choose to tred, Quantum Windbag.

 

[Madeline]

Valid point, if he were not arguing form the point of a radical fundamentalist.

Quantum Windbag, by its very nature "radical" interpretations of any religious text are not main stream. I don't see where you have been open-minded enough to get a clue as to how Kabal views his faith. If he has ever written anything "radical", I have not read it.

Most Muslins do not hate America, do not approve of Jihads or terrorism and -- amazingly enough -- they just want the same things as you and I do. A safe place to live, a decent standard of living for their kids, respect from their communities. A fulfilling life.

The Muslim faith may be flawed. Or it may be perfect, but executed in a flawed manner by its adherents. Whatever....but a population as big as 1 Billion or so cannot possibly be made up entirely of "radicals" who are full of hate.

No one knows how many Muslims live in the US. Some estimate the number as high as 2 Million. Do you not realize that what you write here promotes hatred by non-Muslims towards Muslim Americans? Do you think it's been easy for these people since 9/11? Why do you want to pile on the hate and suffering? It has to been stunningly frightening to attend services at an American mosque. I'd imagine many Muslim Americans have stopped attending because they reasonably fear for the safety of their kidlets if they go. Is that kind of fear what Americans should be endorsing or inflicting on each other?

Every single Muslim American could convert to Christianity tommorrow and most who hate them now would still hate them -- because they "look" Middle Eastern. I don't understand at all how you can reinforce such hatred and add to suffering of so many innocent people.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nope, astronomy too, and they translated the Greek, or else the west would not have experienced its enlightenment. WE'D still be living in caves, or at least we would have a bit longer than we did.

They did not invent astronomy, every culture on earth studied the sky. How can you claim Muslims invented astronomy when I can clearly point to observatories that are older than Muhammed? Did he travel in time and give the knowledge to people before he was born?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Honestly, Quantum Windbag, what possible use is this sort of disrespect? It is clear whatever you may know of the Muslim faith, you appreciate nothing. There is no religion so old, followed by so many, that has as its basic message "hate other people". You've even manged to screw up the beliefs of the Anciet Aztecs. It is grossly unfair to reference their human sacrifice practices without a context. How can you reasonably expect Kalam -- or any Muslim -- to dialogue with you about his spiritual beliefs if you commence the dialogue by announcing that you hold them in severe disrepute?

Of course there are Holy Muslims. There are Muslims whose lives have been transformed by their faith. There are people who are on a spiritual quest who convert to the Muslim Faith. Malcolm X, for starters. The paths that lead to God are not only those you choose to tred, Quantum Windbag.

Wow, a person who rejects religion is trying to lecture me on it.

First, it does not matter what the context of human sacrifice is, it is irrelevant to my point. If all paths lead to God than God does not deserve worship because he condones everything done in his name, including ritualized rape of children. Are you seriously trying to argue that I am wrong to dispute the specious claim that all religions are equally as valid to God?

I appreciate many things, but fools are not among them. I will challenge you to show anywhere that I said that my religion is the only valid one. I just reject people who claim that the journey doesn't matter because the destination is always the same. If you go west and I go north we will not end up in the same place.

If you want to believe that no religion preaches hate and survives, feel free. Just don't expect everyone to drink the Kool-Aid.

 

[Barb]

Nope, astronomy too, and they translated the Greek, or else the west would not have experienced its enlightenment. WE'D still be living in caves, or at least we would have a bit longer than we did.

They did not invent astronomy, every culture on earth studied the sky. How can you claim Muslims invented astronomy when I can clearly point to observatories that are older than Muhammed? Did he travel in time and give the knowledge to people before he was born?

Islam gave the information to the West, and improved on it. Sheesh.

 

[tommywho70x]

Thus Abu Bakr ordered a standard copy to be prepared from the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet, following the order of chapters which was followed by the reciters under the directions of the Prophet, and 'Uthman ordered copies to be made from this standard copy.
​

There were no standard copies around when Muhammad was alive. You believe the lies of false teachers when you fall for this. The texts were not gathered until after his death. It is likely that not all of the Suras were even committed to writing at the time of his death, and most scholars believe that some of those Suras were lost during the battle of Yamama.

As Muhammad had never bothered to gather Al-Qur'an before his death the earliest Caliphs also showed reluctance to do so.

This is posted with the intent of informing others of the truth you are attempting to hide rather than to convince you of that truth. Isa said that the truth will set us free, you need to stop serving Iblis and return to Islam.

are you prepared to defend the lies that have been worked into the christian canon as vigorously as you assail the allegations being made about the koran?

i'm a little too busy right now to really devote the time it deserves to research, but if this suggestion is making you angry enough to fight with me about it, i'll be happy to show you big piles of festering crap i've seen over the years that have been deluding christians for 2 millennia.

the most ludicrous aspect of this whole christian vs. moslem thing is the holier-than-thou attitude about what bloody imperialists the moslems are.

should we start with constantine and work forward or dubya and work back?

 

[tommywho70x]

Wow, a person who rejects religion is trying to lecture me on it.

it appears to me that you define religion as the published doctrine of some church organization and fail to understand the personal religious discipline of people like maddy who, though spiritually introspective, never was sold a bill of goods by any church she felt was worth buying into.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Islam gave the information to the West, and improved on it. Sheesh.

Which means they did not invent astronomy, which was my claim from the beginning.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

it appears to me that you define religion as the published doctrine of some church organization and fail to understand the personal religious discipline of people like maddy who, though spiritually introspective, never was sold a bill of goods by any church she felt was worth buying into.

Where have I espoused the published doctrine of any church organization?

What is actually happening here is you are assuming you know all about me, and you then assume that I am an idiot because I believe what you think I believe. Ask me my beliefs before you attempt to judge them.

 

[tommywho70x]

it appears to me that you define religion as the published doctrine of some church organization and fail to understand the personal religious discipline of people like maddy who, though spiritually introspective, never was sold a bill of goods by any church she felt was worth buying into.

Where have I espoused the published doctrine of any church organization?

What is actually happening here is you are assuming you know all about me, and you then assume that I am an idiot because I believe what you think I believe. Ask me my beliefs before you attempt to judge them.

maybe you didn't understand the meaning of my comment. i was merely pointing out that people who are not adherents to any organized religion, that does not necessarily even mean that they are atheists --- their religion is personal, strictly between themselves and any higher order of being they feel affects their well being.

i wasn't passing judgment on anything and if i thought you were an idiot, i wouldn't waste my time questioning your statements.

please, feel free to give us a sermon about the doctrines you believe to be true and enduring.

you may be surprised with my responses to your heartsong.

i am not like the hateful people who infest this community.

even if i don't agree with somebody who is sincere and intelligent in their belief systems (B.S.) i'm not about to call them stupid fucks or damned demon spawn.

you simply are expressing your connection to the universe on a different umbilicus than mine.

 

[syrenn]

All who wander are not lost. I don't know where that came from, and I'm not looking it up, but it fits.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost


J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

maybe you didn't understand the meaning of my comment. i was merely pointing out that people who are not adherents to any organized religion, that does not necessarily even mean that they are atheists --- their religion is personal, strictly between themselves and any higher order of being they feel affects their well being.

i wasn't passing judgment on anything and if i thought you were an idiot, i wouldn't waste my time questioning your statements.

please, feel free to give us a sermon about the doctrines you believe to be true and enduring.

you may be surprised with my responses to your heartsong.

i am not like the hateful people who infest this community.

even if i don't agree with somebody who is sincere and intelligent in their belief systems (B.S.) i'm not about to call them stupid fucks or damned demon spawn.

you simply are expressing your connection to the universe on a different umbilicus than mine.

I was making a tongue in cheek comment to a personal friend about her chiding me about not understanding religion. The rest of my comment was directed to the "truth" that not all paths lead to God. People are justified in finding and worshiping any god they want, but they are not justified in trivializing every belief system on Earth.

Have you ever seriously considered the implications of the statement that all paths lead to God? That is not asking us to accept that people have the right to believe what they want, it is asking us to accept that He is an idiot. Why would God give equal validity to an Atheist who rejects His existence and Mother Theresa? Why would he give both Hitler and Buddha in the after life? Why would he give equal billing to to a doctor and Charles Manson?

If we make distinctions between the actions of certain people why should we expect less from the Creator of the Universe, no matter how we perceive him? I am not going to attack people based on their religion on this board, but I will attack anyone who thinks that all paths are equally valid because they all lead to the same God. Evil does not lead to good, and evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good.

All paths do not lead to God, some of them have to lead to his opposite.

Note: You will also see me challenging anyone who espouses a belief that does not fit known facts. This will be equally spread between all religions, as any religion that cannot deal with the universe the way it actually is is useless. You are free to believe that God will come down as a brussels sprout and right all the worlds ills if we all stop eating animals, but you are not free to tell me the world is only 1000 years old and expect me to ignore it because it is written in your Holy Book.

 

[PixieStix]

Of course there are Holy Muslims. There are Muslims whose lives have been transformed by their faith. There are people who are on a spiritual quest who convert to the Muslim Faith. Malcolm X, for starters.

Malcolm X was convinced of one thing, he changed his mind.

Is that suppose to be a picture of Malcolm X?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFUqObRDkc]YouTube - Malcolm X - The Real Reason why he Exit the Nation of Islam - He knew that they gonna Kill him[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt5TY6QBk8o&NR=1]YouTube - Farrakhan exposed: Who really assassinated Malcolm x?[/ame]