Hate Speech in Quran

[Quantum Windbag]

I have to say that I didn't expect you to give up quite this early.

I have a lot of friends who are fundamentalist Christians and know that when they demand proof that what they really mean is that God strike them dead if they are wrong. As you obviously as open to reason as they are, I elect not to waste my time talking to you. That says a lot more about you than me, because I love to argue, and will even argue with a wall when it is wrong. That means it is actually more productive for someone to bang their head against a wall than try to debate your mindset.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Thus Abu Bakr ordered a standard copy to be prepared from the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet, following the order of chapters which was followed by the reciters under the directions of the Prophet, and 'Uthman ordered copies to be made from this standard copy.
​

There were no standard copies around when Muhammad was alive. You believe the lies of false teachers when you fall for this. The texts were not gathered until after his death. It is likely that not all of the Suras were even committed to writing at the time of his death, and most scholars believe that some of those Suras were lost during the battle of Yamama.

As Muhammad had never bothered to gather Al-Qur'an before his death the earliest Caliphs also showed reluctance to do so.

This is posted with the intent of informing others of the truth you are attempting to hide rather than to convince you of that truth. Isa said that the truth will set us free, you need to stop serving Iblis and return to Islam.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You're a terrorist faggot I'm guessing. No?

Who are you?

This seems to be the only USMB-er to reply to this thread who is Muslim. Mebbe if you lay off insulting him, his history, scholarship, culture and beliefs you could actually hold a dialogue. Only a complete ignoramus believes the Muslim has contributed nothing to Modern Civilization.

The fact is they invented it. When the ancestors of Westerners were crawling around huts in the dark, the Ottomans were charting the stars and building palaces decorated with breath-taking art.

Ugly is as ugly does -- or speaks. On this thread, that ain't Kalam.

It is when he rejects truth in the support of ideology.

I am willing to give credit where credit where it is due, but Muslims did not invent civilization. The Ottomans got a great deal of their knowledge from Greece, Egypt, and China. If you want to give them credit for something, try modern medicine, not astronomy.

 

[Madeline]

I just happen to think mebbe we could gain some insight from this man, if we'd all stop shouting insults at him. He's apparently the only Muslim here, and we (some of us) have been assholes.

Might be nice to begin by assuming he knows more about his faith than any of us does...just a thought.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Valid point, if he were not arguing form the point of a radical fundamentalist.

 

[tommywho70x]

I can confidently say that nothing I've posted here constitutes screaming.

A fanatic is an unreasonable, emotionally unstable person who has usually been brainwashed. I had no super-religious parents, siblings, friends, or mentors who told me what to think. I studied my faith on my own from the beginning and have never been unreasonable about these beliefs that I came to reasonably.


As a "trained empirical scientist," I'm sure you noticed that the wording of the article was made intentionally vague when the nature of the so-called aberrations was being discussed. That's because the only differences are mistakes in numbering and minor diacritical and lexical errors, not entirely new volumes of text or anything of Dead Sea Scrolls proportions. Westerners act as if the issue of Qur'anic purity has never been raised in Muslims circles; the truth is that each of the reports alleging the existence of "missing" portions has a weak isnad. This was confirmed and the issue was settled long ago. Now, neo-orientalists are attempting to undermine established historical truths with specious narratives from Christian theologians and other unreliable sources which, for some reason, they are instantly willing to accept as authoritative.

that is correct, i did notice that the errors were considered trivial but did indicate that the "word-for-word" claims are weakened by what they found.

for instance, i know that the rabbis will burn a torah that has the least little one of those kind of errors --- even a stray ink smudge will get a mezuzah destroyed.

the article you linked to was really more like an online textbook than a magazine article. without going back to see what they were, i remember two questions that i asked. can you zero in on where those questions will be answered or did i just get myself into a self study course in islamic law?

The article is an excerpt from a book I have that contains general information about the history and basic teachings of the religion... I suppose it could be considered a textbook of sorts. I meant to link to a specific section, but that doesn't appear to be possible. This section and perhaps the two that follow it are relevant to our discussion:

Standardisation of the Quran:

Thus Abu Bakr ordered a standard copy to be prepared from the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet, following the order of chapters which was followed by the reciters under the directions of the Prophet, and 'Uthman ordered copies to be made from this standard copy. If there was any variation from that standard copy, it went no further than this that where the Quraish wrote a word in one way and Zaid wrote it in another way, Uthman's order was to write it in the manner of the Quraish. This was because Zaid was a Madinite while his colleagues were Quraish.

As to what these differences were, some light is thrown on the point by Tirmidhi, one of the collectors of traditions, making the following addition to this report: "And they differed on that occasion as to tabut and tabuh. The Quraish members said that it was tabut and Zaid said that it was tabuh. The difference was reported to 'Uthman and he directed them to write it tabut, adding that the Quran was revealed in the dialect of the Quraish." It would be seen from this that these differences of reading or writing were very insignificant, but as the Companions of the prophet believed every word and letter of the Quran to be the revealed word of God, they gave importance even to a slight difference in writing and referred it to the Caliph. It may be added here that Zaid was chiefly called upon by the Prophet at Madinah to write down the Quranic revelations, and the word tabut occurs in a Madinah chapter (2:248). Zaid had written it tabuh as the Madinites did, but as the Quraish wrote it tabut, 'Uthman restored the Quraishite form. This incident further shows that Hafsah's copy contained the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet. These two reports furnish conclusive proof that if there was any difference between 'Uthman's standard copy and the collection made by Abu Bakr, it was a difference only as to the mode of writing certain words. In short, there was no change of words, no change of verses and no change in the order of chapters.​

looks like we have achieved focus, my ishmaelite cousin.

you are certainly no fanatic, and i am feeling that you prostrate yourself before your god at least three times daily.

i look forward to reading your answers to the outrageous interpretations some of the judeo-christian fanatics are giving to specific passages from your holy book as i deliver them into the protection you and i can give this discussion with the help of the holy father

i stress discussion AND NOT debate. i am what i am --- you are what you are --- i respect and revere the oneness that makes us the same yet different --- which puts us on a point of contention i am experiencing.

in my self, i know the Lord YHVH and the Lord Allah to be the same individual using different names with different people.

what say you?

i say "god is good. god is great. thank you god for paying the freight!"
Baruch Ha Shem! Alla-huh Akbar! Aho Mitakuye Oyasin!
(Lakota: Let it be so for all my relations!)

(isn't free access wonderful? not thirty years ago, we would have been paying by the minute to meet this way online. the next time i go do some online bill paying i intend to become a supporting member of this board. well worth the investment to keep this zoo free.)

the rabbi who made me bar mitzvah, taught that we are all one people and that the racial and cultural strife that we experience in this era is the end result of god's punishing the arrogance of people over the tower of babel. he taught us that to heal this bad karma on all people, we have to realize that the differences in our religions and ways of life evolved because of the scattering of the people and confounding of the tongues and the differing resources available to the different cultures scattered about the globe. recognizing that, we need to embrace each other's traditions, ceremonies and documents in peace, love and joy AND NOT fear, loathing, death and destruction if we people , as a SPECIES are ever to regain grace.

in this particular coagulation of brain farts, the theme is one of fanatic hebrew-christians attacking the whole of islam and in fact it's most holy document as being THE fuel firing arab terrorism against israel and its allies.

the various sects of jews and christians have always been adept at making the bible say as god's truth, whatever truth it was they were selling. it appears that some think they can play the same game with the Qu'ran
(is there something wrong in spelling that "koran"?)

the christians have a long and bloody history of killing each other over conflicting interpretations. during the crusades, there were more christians left dead at the hands of other christians all along the routes to the holy land. in the holy land, they killed more christians than muslims.

there is even one account of a group of arab christians who were slaughtered when they came running out to greet the crusaders who they thought had come to liberate them from moslem rule. \

looks like an arab, dresses like an arab, must be an arab. kill it before it multiplies. sound familiar?
sadly, i think human society has actually devolved further in its moral value structures and ethical actions than during the middle ages.

in america, sects of orthodox jews have often fought with each other in the streets on holy days because of disagreements in interpretation of torah.

prepare to receive and speak to the passages that are being posted as proof texts supporting the endemic islamophobia at usmb. i promise they'll be delivered in a readable form without the original poster's vitriol attached.

 

[pcw27]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)....

You can continue here to read:


Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

I've seen this so many times its ridiculous. Doesn't anyone look into the original context.

These statements are not commandments or part of religious law they're quotes of specific orders given during a war, not rules to live by for all time.

I'll add out that "idolators" probably refers to pagan's not members of any modern day religion, although that's besides the point.

Nearly identical passages can be found in the bible. The Israelites under the command of prophets like Joshua and King David undertook genocidal wars on multiple occasions.

 

[tommywho70x]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)....

You can continue here to read:


Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

I've seen this so many times its ridiculous. Doesn't anyone look into the original context.

These statements are not commandments or part of religious law they're quotes of specific orders given during a war, not rules to live by for all time.

I'll add out that "idolators" probably refers to pagan's not members of any modern day religion, although that's besides the point.

Nearly identical passages can be found in the bible. The Israelites under the command of prophets like Joshua and King David undertook genocidal wars on multiple occasions.

thank you for that observation. those are the same kinds of contextual distortion i have seen between christian and hebrew versions of the book genesis.

my favorite example is how the Paulist churches have corrupted jesus' words in order to justify the dilution of hebrew practice, particularly the rite of circumcision and the purity laws when they say jesus said "i have not to change the law but to fulfill it"

what they conveniently leave out is the next line where he says, "and ye verily, until all the work is done not the smallest penstroke may be changed from the law"

 

[Kalam]

I have to say that I didn't expect you to give up quite this early.

I have a lot of friends who are fundamentalist Christians and know that when they demand proof that what they really mean is that God strike them dead if they are wrong. As you obviously as open to reason as they are, I elect not to waste my time talking to you. That says a lot more about you than me, because I love to argue, and will even argue with a wall when it is wrong. That means it is actually more productive for someone to bang their head against a wall than try to debate your mindset.

If you want to make assumptions about my personality based on our short exchange here, you won't hear me cry over not being able to talk to you.

 

[Kalam]

There were no standard copies around when Muhammad was alive.

Of course not... that would have been nearly impossible. He (SAWS) received revelations up until the last few months preceding his death.

You believe the lies of false teachers when you fall for this.

No religious teachers, no imams, nothing of that sort up to this point. You'd do well not to make assumptions about my life. They'll most likely be incorrect.

The texts were not gathered until after his death.

And doing so was a simple matter as the Qur'an had been recorded on manuscripts at the Messenger's (SAWS) request during his lifetime. That which wasn't written down was preserved in the memory and daily public recitations of the sahaba, even after Yamama. Keep in mind that all of our prayers and most of our supplications and other expressions of worship involve some sort of Qur'anic recitation. Whenever an ayah was revealed, it was recited publicly and immediately memorized by the sahaba. The likelihood of every living sahabiy suffering from the same lapse of memory during the compilation and standardization of the Qur'an is so low that these claims are hardly worth consideration.

It is likely that not all of the Suras were even committed to writing at the time of his death, and most scholars believe that some of those Suras were lost during the battle of Yamama.

Please prove that "most scholars believe that some of those Suras were lost during the battle of Yamama." I'm sure that you have some sort of survey or poll that substantiates this.

As Muhammad had never bothered to gather Al-Qur'an before his death the earliest Caliphs also showed reluctance to do so.

Abu Bakr (RA) was initially reluctant to do so, but compilation began after Umar (RA) convinced the Muslims that it was a necessary measure. Abu Bakr oversaw the beginning of this process, as did Hafsah bint Umar (RA), wife of the Messenger (SAWS), Umm al-Mu'minin, and memorizer of the Qur'an. It was the Qur'an compiled under her expertise that was acknowledged by Uthman (RA) as the true Qur'an.

This is posted with the intent of informing others of the truth you are attempting to hide rather than to convince you of that truth. Isa said that the truth will set us free, you need to stop serving Iblis and return to Islam.

Come off it. I'll put up with a lot, but I won't have a kafir try to use religious concepts he doesn't understand to talk down to me. I also won't be accused of dishonesty by someone who is assuredly far more ignorant of the subject being discussed than I am.

 

[Kalam]

looks like we have achieved focus, my ishmaelite cousin.

you are certainly no fanatic, and i am feeling that you prostrate yourself before your god at least three times daily.

i look forward to reading your answers to the outrageous interpretations some of the judeo-christian fanatics are giving to specific passages from your holy book as i deliver them into the protection you and i can give this discussion with the help of the holy father

Thanks man. In sha' Allah I'll respond to this post soon... but now it's late and tomorrow is going to be a full day.
'

 

[mystic]

There's much worse stuff in the Bible and the Torah. Why focus on the Quran?

2nd question: I support Islam because I support Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, ect.

And you think they are all the same because you never studied history.

uh, you know there's more then one "version" of history, right? Er....probably not.

But to answer your passive-agressive, psuedo question: No, it's because I believe all paths lead to God.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There's much worse stuff in the Bible and the Torah. Why focus on the Quran?

2nd question: I support Islam because I support Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, ect.

And you think they are all the same because you never studied history.

uh, you know there's more then one "version" of history, right? Er....probably not.

But to answer your passive-agressive, psuedo question: No, it's because I believe all paths lead to God.

I see, you are so mush headed that you think that all paths lead to God. That means there is no difference between the Aztec who cuts out a persons heart and the Buddhists who do not believe that God exists. That indicates exactly how little you actually know, or care, about religion.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have to say that I didn't expect you to give up quite this early.

I have a lot of friends who are fundamentalist Christians and know that when they demand proof that what they really mean is that God strike them dead if they are wrong. As you obviously as open to reason as they are, I elect not to waste my time talking to you. That says a lot more about you than me, because I love to argue, and will even argue with a wall when it is wrong. That means it is actually more productive for someone to bang their head against a wall than try to debate your mindset.

If you want to make assumptions about my personality based on our short exchange here, you won't hear me cry over not being able to talk to you.

Then come at me with something other than a teaching that does not even follow the beliefs of informed Muslims. Prove me wrong by articulating points rooted in logic and clear thought, not just by dismissing evidence because it does not fit your worldview.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Of course not... that would have been nearly impossible. He (SAWS) received revelations up until the last few months preceding his death.

Good starting point, yet you claim that Al-Quran is word for word since that time. How do you account for the obvious problems?

No religious teachers, no imams, nothing of that sort up to this point. You'd do well not to make assumptions about my life. They'll most likely be incorrect.

Did I say anything about imams? If I had wanted to claim you were listening to false imams I would have said imams. I said teachers because anyone who teaches is a teacher, but not all teachers are imams.

And doing so was a simple matter as the Qur'an had been recorded on manuscripts at the Messenger's (SAWS) request during his lifetime. That which wasn't written down was preserved in the memory and daily public recitations of the sahaba, even after Yamama. Keep in mind that all of our prayers and most of our supplications and other expressions of worship involve some sort of Qur'anic recitation. Whenever an ayah was revealed, it was recited publicly and immediately memorized by the sahaba. The likelihood of every living sahabiy suffering from the same lapse of memory during the compilation and standardization of the Qur'an is so low that these claims are hardly worth consideration.

The likelihood that every person remembered it exactly the same is so small that I can easier believe that the sun is going to rise in the west tomorrow. I know you claim divine intervention for the Quran, but unless you can point to something that backs up that position, I have to assume that someone went through the various versions and tossed out the ones he didn't like. Since you have already admitted that has happened, and we both know that Allah causes people to err, you lose.

Please prove that "most scholars believe that some of those Suras were lost during the battle of Yamama." I'm sure that you have some sort of survey or poll that substantiates this.

You have already indicated that you will reject anything from kafirs, and everyone who does not agree with you is a kafirr, so what will you accept?

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of the Qur'an - WikiIslam

Abu Bakr (RA) was initially reluctant to do so, but compilation began after Umar (RA) convinced the Muslims that it was a necessary measure. Abu Bakr oversaw the beginning of this process, as did Hafsah bint Umar (RA), wife of the Messenger (SAWS), Umm al-Mu'minin, and memorizer of the Qur'an. It was the Qur'an compiled under her expertise that was acknowledged by Uthman (RA) as the true Qur'an.

Thank you for proving my point.

Come off it. I'll put up with a lot, but I won't have a kafir try to use religious concepts he doesn't understand to talk down to me. I also won't be accused of dishonesty by someone who is assuredly far more ignorant of the subject being discussed than I am.

What makes you think I do not understand them? It isn't like any of the concepts i have used take any deep understanding, I haven't tried to speak of the mysteries of Islam, just the stuff that anyone who has a basic understanding of Islam would know.

 

[mystic]

And you think they are all the same because you never studied history.

uh, you know there's more then one "version" of history, right? Er....probably not.

But to answer your passive-agressive, psuedo question: No, it's because I believe all paths lead to God.

I see, you are so mush headed that you think that all paths lead to God. That means there is no difference between the Aztec who cuts out a persons heart and the Buddhists who do not believe that God exists. That indicates exactly how little you actually know, or care, about religion.

I recognize that I know almost nothing of the world, the afterlife or the nature of God. All I have is my own faith and my own beliefs. And so it is for each of us. I would be very careful, if I was you, to go on thinking that you have all the correct answers. It prohibits growth and learning.
Something to ponder: The similarities are far greater then the differences. You gave Aztec and Buddhists as examples. Religious rituals are observed today (in major religions) that offer up human or animal blood as sacrifice. And many buddhists believe in God.
If you continue to read, you will notice the lines becoming quite blurred. To borrow from buddhism: Don't look at the finger pointing to the moon and think it is the moon.

 

[pcw27]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.



You can continue here to read:


Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

I've seen this so many times its ridiculous. Doesn't anyone look into the original context.

These statements are not commandments or part of religious law they're quotes of specific orders given during a war, not rules to live by for all time.

I'll add out that "idolators" probably refers to pagan's not members of any modern day religion, although that's besides the point.

Nearly identical passages can be found in the bible. The Israelites under the command of prophets like Joshua and King David undertook genocidal wars on multiple occasions.

thank you for that observation. those are the same kinds of contextual distortion i have seen between christian and hebrew versions of the book genesis.

my favorite example is how the Paulist churches have corrupted jesus' words in order to justify the dilution of hebrew practice, particularly the rite of circumcision and the purity laws when they say jesus said "i have not to change the law but to fulfill it"

what they conveniently leave out is the next line where he says, "and ye verily, until all the work is done not the smallest penstroke may be changed from the law"

Does he go on to explain what "all the work" is?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I recognize that I know almost nothing of the world, the afterlife or the nature of God. All I have is my own faith and my own beliefs. And so it is for each of us. I would be very careful, if I was you, to go on thinking that you have all the correct answers. It prohibits growth and learning.
Something to ponder: The similarities are far greater then the differences. You gave Aztec and Buddhists as examples. Religious rituals are observed today (in major religions) that offer up human or animal blood as sacrifice. And many buddhists believe in God.
If you continue to read, you will notice the lines becoming quite blurred. To borrow from buddhism: Don't look at the finger pointing to the moon and think it is the moon.

I never claimed to have the right answer, but that does not preclude the ability to recognize the wrong answer when it pops up, and all paths lead to God is definitely the wrong answer.

While I will admit that some Buddhists believe in God, I will dispute you if you claim many, because Buddhism rejects the concept of a creator. Keep looking at the trivial similarities between religions iof you like, one day the differences between them will smack you upside the head and rub your face in the shit of life.

 

[Kalam]

Good starting point, yet you claim that Al-Quran is word for word since that time. How do you account for the obvious problems?

You'll have to be more specific.

Did I say anything about imams? If I had wanted to claim you were listening to false imams I would have said imams. I said teachers because anyone who teaches is a teacher, but not all teachers are imams.

It doesn't matter; I've had neither.

The likelihood that every person remembered it exactly the same is so small that I can easier believe that the sun is going to rise in the west tomorrow.

Who implied that "every person remembered it exactly the same"? The claims that you've made involve entire portions of the revelation missing, not simple errors that could have been (and were) corrected during Uthman's (RA) standardization.

I know you claim divine intervention for the Quran, but unless you can point to something that backs up that position, I have to assume that someone went through the various versions and tossed out the ones he didn't like. Since you have already admitted that has happened, and we both know that Allah causes people to err, you lose.

If this is about "losing" and "winning" to you, then you're neither correct nor worth my time.

Unless you can demonstrate that some sort of conspiracy to alter the original Qur'an existed among Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Hafsah, and every other living sahabiyy (RA), you've done nothing to prove your point.

You have already indicated that you will reject anything from kafirs,

Kuffar are not trustworthy sources of information where Islam is concerned.

and everyone who does not agree with you is a kafirr,

This, of course, is a lie.

so what will you accept?

In this discussion? Any hadith with a stong isnad.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of the Qur'an - WikiIslam

WikiIslam is a dishonest website operated by ignorant disbelievers. They do not allow Muslims to edit their articles - Muslim contributions are labeled as such and relegated to another part of the website. Why would I accept that source?

Thank you for proving my point.

You said that the "earliest caliphs" were "reluctant" to compile the Qur'an. Only Abu Bakr (RA) showed initial reluctance, and he reversed his position after listening to Umar (RA). You were incorrect.

What makes you think I do not understand them?

You are not a Muslim. You can attain a superficial, textbook understanding of these concepts as a non-Muslim, but imaan is essential before you can fully understand any part of Islam.

It isn't like any of the concepts i have used take any deep understanding, I haven't tried to speak of the mysteries of Islam, just the stuff that anyone who has a basic understanding of Islam would know.

What makes you think that you have a basic understanding of Islam? What does it mean to have a "basic understanding"?

 

[Kalam]

Then come at me with something other than a teaching that does not even follow the beliefs of informed Muslims. Prove me wrong by articulating points rooted in logic and clear thought, not just by dismissing evidence because it does not fit your worldview.

Your contributions to this thread have given me the impression that you aren't here to have your beliefs challenged. You seem rather convinced that you're correct and that all of my opinions on the subject were borne of ignorance or some sort of indoctrination. Excuse me if this isn't the case.