Hate Speech in Quran

[tommywho70x]

Then you didn't read it.

i didn't read the whole article you posted because it was way too long for me to read when i'm playing online. i like to get paid to read and report on something that long.

i did read the the atlantic article and the following is what i claim supports my assertion:

You didn't read the article I posted because, unlike the other, it doesn't support your ignorant presumption of Qur'anic impurity. The fact stands that there is no credible evidence to support the claim that the Qur'an we have today is not word-for-word the Qur'an delivered to Muhammad (SAWS) 1400 years ago.

that is two untrue statements you make.

i read the first few hundred words slow and then the next few thousand fast and when i didn't find the answers to the questions i asked, i bookmarked the page for later when i had time to go through it.

you are not dealing with a zionist fanatic here, kalam and you can take your thoughts of my "ignorant presumption of Qur'anic impurity" and stuff them up your islamic fanatic ass.
(if it isn't obvious to you, fanatics bug me regardless of which side of an issue they are screaming about)

i am a trained empirical scientist and adept at research of a wide variety. i do not draw conclusions without plenty of data to base them on and certainly not some emotional bias drawn from a lifetime of warfare.

the atlantic report seemed to present credible evidence that the Qur'an is not word-for-word as it was delivered to Muhammed. how do you account for the variations reported by that research?

 

[Kalam]

Which is partially why I posted it, to counter the blatant lie that the Quran is perfect and unchanged since it was written.

Lies circulated in kafir publications are hardly damning evidence. The West's record of poor scholarship when it comes to Islam has apparently not stopped non-Muslims from assuming that they are the authoritative source of information on the subject.

There were literal wars fought over which version of the Quran would be passed down as authentic,

"Literal wars"?

Could you be referring to the manuscripts with orthographical errors that were reportedly collected and destroyed under Uthman? I seem to recall learning that the owners of those manuscripts all acknowledged that the Uthmani text was the Qur'an that Muhammad (SAWS) delivered.

and Muhammad himself spoke of other Suras that are not included in the text we have today.

Would you like to tell us the name of the man upon whose account this misconception is based?

If the Qur'an we have today differs somehow from the original Qur'an, I invite you and every other nonbeliever to produce concrete evidence of any other "version" ever existing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Lies circulated in kafir publications are hardly damning evidence. The West's record of poor scholarship when it comes to Islam has apparently not stopped non-Muslims from assuming that they are the authoritative source of information on the subject.

It also doesn't stop them from asserting that the Earth is flat.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc]YouTube - Iraqi TV Debate: Is the Earth Flat?[/ame]

"Literal wars"?

Could you be referring to the manuscripts with orthographical errors that were reportedly collected and destroyed under Uthman? I seem to recall learning that the owners of those manuscripts all acknowledged that the Uthmani text was the Qur'an that Muhammad (SAWS) delivered.

And the fact that Uthman held their families hostage had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Would you like to tell us the name of the man upon whose account this misconception is based?

If the Qur'an we have today differs somehow from the original Qur'an, I invite you and every other nonbeliever to produce concrete evidence of any other "version" ever existing.

You wouldn't believe it if Muhammad himself came back and told you it wrong, so why should I try.

 

[Madeline]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)....

You can continue here to read:

Quotes from the Qur'an

Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

Baron, I assume that this point has been made by another poster (I have not weighed through the entire thread) but here's my reply:

There is plenty of ugly, hateful stuff in the Bible. I assume you are not a Muslim, and have no idea how many variations of that faith exist among the 2 Billion or so who belong to that faith. There is positively nothing that any faith's adherents could do in its name that would stack up against the evils unleashed on humanity by christians, and so I conclude:

This Op is xenophobic, racist, religious intolerance in search of a willing audience. Yes, there is violence in the Koran. Yes, some Imans exploit those passages for their own evil purposes. So has the US, when it suited us.

Knock off the soft-pedal hate speech, please.

 

[LuckyDan]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.

“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)....

You can continue here to read:

Quotes from the Qur'an

Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

Baron, I assume that this point has been made by another poster (I have not weighed through the entire thread) but here's my reply:

There is plenty of ugly, hateful stuff in the Bible. I assume you are not a Muslim, and have no idea how many variations of that faith exist among the 2 Billion or so who belong to that faith. There is positively nothing that any faith's adherents could do in its name that would stack up against the evils unleashed on humanity by christians, and so I conclude:

This Op is xenophobic, racist, religious intolerance in search of a willing audience. Yes, there is violence in the Koran. Yes, some Imans exploit those passages for their own evil purposes. So has the US, when it suited us.

Knock off the soft-pedal hate speech, please.

Madeline,

I assume you know jack shit about the Koran, but are an expert on activities of christians.

Please list, oh, let's say a dozen of the evils christianity has unleashed, hon.

 

[Kalam]

that is two untrue statements you make.

i read the first few hundred words slow and then the next few thousand fast and when i didn't find the answers to the questions i asked, i bookmarked the page for later when i had time to go through it.

you are not dealing with a zionist fanatic here, kalam and you can take your thoughts of my "ignorant presumption of Qur'anic impurity" and stuff them up your islamic fanatic ass.
(if it isn't obvious to you, fanatics bug me regardless of which side of an issue they are screaming about)

I can confidently say that nothing I've posted here constitutes screaming.

A fanatic is an unreasonable, emotionally unstable person who has usually been brainwashed. I had no super-religious parents, siblings, friends, or mentors who told me what to think. I studied my faith on my own from the beginning and have never been unreasonable about these beliefs that I came to reasonably.

i am a trained empirical scientist and adept at research of a wide variety. i do not draw conclusions without plenty of data to base them on and certainly not some emotional bias drawn from a lifetime of warfare.

the atlantic report seemed to present credible evidence that the Qur'an is not word-for-word as it was delivered to Muhammed. how do you account for the variations reported by that research?

As a "trained empirical scientist," I'm sure you noticed that the wording of the article was made intentionally vague when the nature of the so-called aberrations was being discussed. That's because the only differences are mistakes in numbering and minor diacritical and lexical errors, not entirely new volumes of text or anything of Dead Sea Scrolls proportions. Westerners act as if the issue of Qur'anic purity has never been raised in Muslims circles; the truth is that each of the reports alleging the existence of "missing" portions has a weak isnad. This was confirmed and the issue was settled long ago. Now, neo-orientalists are attempting to undermine established historical truths with specious narratives from Christian theologians and other unreliable sources which, for some reason, they are instantly willing to accept as authoritative.

 

[Kalam]

Lies circulated in kafir publications are hardly damning evidence. The West's record of poor scholarship when it comes to Islam has apparently not stopped non-Muslims from assuming that they are the authoritative source of information on the subject.

It also doesn't stop them from asserting that the Earth is flat.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc]YouTube - Iraqi TV Debate: Is the Earth Flat?[/ame]

Cool. Irrelevancy FTW.

And the fact that Uthman held their families hostage had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Uthman (RA) held the families of 'Ali, Ubayy, and Ibn Mas'ud (RA) hostage? That's something I've never heard before. You learn something new every day.

You wouldn't believe it if Muhammad himself came back and told you it wrong, so why should I try.

I have to say that I didn't expect you to give up quite this early.

 

[LuckyDan]

Lies circulated in kafir publications are hardly damning evidence. The West's record of poor scholarship when it comes to Islam has apparently not stopped non-Muslims from assuming that they are the authoritative source of information on the subject.

It also doesn't stop them from asserting that the Earth is flat.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc"]YouTube - Iraqi TV Debate: Is the Earth Flat?[/ame]

Cool. Irrelevancy FTW.

And the fact that Uthman held their families hostage had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Uthman (RA) held the families of 'Ali, Ubayy, and Ibn Mas'ud (RA) hostage? That's something I've never heard before. You learn something new every day.

You wouldn't believe it if Muhammad himself came back and told you it wrong, so why should I try.

I have to say that I didn't expect you to give up quite this early.

You're a terrorist faggot I'm guessing. No?

 

[Kalam]

You're a terrorist faggot I'm guessing. No?

Who are you?

 

[tommywho70x]

that is two untrue statements you make.

i read the first few hundred words slow and then the next few thousand fast and when i didn't find the answers to the questions i asked, i bookmarked the page for later when i had time to go through it.

you are not dealing with a zionist fanatic here, kalam and you can take your thoughts of my "ignorant presumption of Qur'anic impurity" and stuff them up your islamic fanatic ass.
(if it isn't obvious to you, fanatics bug me regardless of which side of an issue they are screaming about)

I can confidently say that nothing I've posted here constitutes screaming.

A fanatic is an unreasonable, emotionally unstable person who has usually been brainwashed. I had no super-religious parents, siblings, friends, or mentors who told me what to think. I studied my faith on my own from the beginning and have never been unreasonable about these beliefs that I came to reasonably.

i am a trained empirical scientist and adept at research of a wide variety. i do not draw conclusions without plenty of data to base them on and certainly not some emotional bias drawn from a lifetime of warfare.

the atlantic report seemed to present credible evidence that the Qur'an is not word-for-word as it was delivered to Muhammed. how do you account for the variations reported by that research?

As a "trained empirical scientist," I'm sure you noticed that the wording of the article was made intentionally vague when the nature of the so-called aberrations was being discussed. That's because the only differences are mistakes in numbering and minor diacritical and lexical errors, not entirely new volumes of text or anything of Dead Sea Scrolls proportions. Westerners act as if the issue of Qur'anic purity has never been raised in Muslims circles; the truth is that each of the reports alleging the existence of "missing" portions has a weak isnad. This was confirmed and the issue was settled long ago. Now, neo-orientalists are attempting to undermine established historical truths with specious narratives from Christian theologians and other unreliable sources which, for some reason, they are instantly willing to accept as authoritative.

that is correct, i did notice that the errors were considered trivial but did indicate that the "word-for-word" claims are weakened by what they found.

for instance, i know that the rabbis will burn a torah that has the least little one of those kind of errors --- even a stray ink smudge will get a mezuzah destroyed.

the article you linked to was really more like an online textbook than a magazine article. without going back to see what they were, i remember two questions that i asked. can you zero in on where those questions will be answered or did i just get myself into a self study course in islamic law?

 

[Kalam]

that is two untrue statements you make.

i read the first few hundred words slow and then the next few thousand fast and when i didn't find the answers to the questions i asked, i bookmarked the page for later when i had time to go through it.

you are not dealing with a zionist fanatic here, kalam and you can take your thoughts of my "ignorant presumption of Qur'anic impurity" and stuff them up your islamic fanatic ass.
(if it isn't obvious to you, fanatics bug me regardless of which side of an issue they are screaming about)

I can confidently say that nothing I've posted here constitutes screaming.

A fanatic is an unreasonable, emotionally unstable person who has usually been brainwashed. I had no super-religious parents, siblings, friends, or mentors who told me what to think. I studied my faith on my own from the beginning and have never been unreasonable about these beliefs that I came to reasonably.

i am a trained empirical scientist and adept at research of a wide variety. i do not draw conclusions without plenty of data to base them on and certainly not some emotional bias drawn from a lifetime of warfare.

the atlantic report seemed to present credible evidence that the Qur'an is not word-for-word as it was delivered to Muhammed. how do you account for the variations reported by that research?

As a "trained empirical scientist," I'm sure you noticed that the wording of the article was made intentionally vague when the nature of the so-called aberrations was being discussed. That's because the only differences are mistakes in numbering and minor diacritical and lexical errors, not entirely new volumes of text or anything of Dead Sea Scrolls proportions. Westerners act as if the issue of Qur'anic purity has never been raised in Muslims circles; the truth is that each of the reports alleging the existence of "missing" portions has a weak isnad. This was confirmed and the issue was settled long ago. Now, neo-orientalists are attempting to undermine established historical truths with specious narratives from Christian theologians and other unreliable sources which, for some reason, they are instantly willing to accept as authoritative.

that is correct, i did notice that the errors were considered trivial but did indicate that the "word-for-word" claims are weakened by what they found.

for instance, i know that the rabbis will burn a torah that has the least little one of those kind of errors --- even a stray ink smudge will get a mezuzah destroyed.

the article you linked to was really more like an online textbook than a magazine article. without going back to see what they were, i remember two questions that i asked. can you zero in on where those questions will be answered or did i just get myself into a self study course in islamic law?

The article is an excerpt from a book I have that contains general information about the history and basic teachings of the religion... I suppose it could be considered a textbook of sorts. I meant to link to a specific section, but that doesn't appear to be possible. This section and perhaps the two that follow it are relevant to our discussion:

Standardisation of the Quran:

Thus Abu Bakr ordered a standard copy to be prepared from the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet, following the order of chapters which was followed by the reciters under the directions of the Prophet, and 'Uthman ordered copies to be made from this standard copy. If there was any variation from that standard copy, it went no further than this that where the Quraish wrote a word in one way and Zaid wrote it in another way, Uthman's order was to write it in the manner of the Quraish. This was because Zaid was a Madinite while his colleagues were Quraish.

As to what these differences were, some light is thrown on the point by Tirmidhi, one of the collectors of traditions, making the following addition to this report: "And they differed on that occasion as to tabut and tabuh. The Quraish members said that it was tabut and Zaid said that it was tabuh. The difference was reported to 'Uthman and he directed them to write it tabut, adding that the Quran was revealed in the dialect of the Quraish." It would be seen from this that these differences of reading or writing were very insignificant, but as the Companions of the prophet believed every word and letter of the Quran to be the revealed word of God, they gave importance even to a slight difference in writing and referred it to the Caliph. It may be added here that Zaid was chiefly called upon by the Prophet at Madinah to write down the Quranic revelations, and the word tabut occurs in a Madinah chapter (2:248). Zaid had written it tabuh as the Madinites did, but as the Quraish wrote it tabut, 'Uthman restored the Quraishite form. This incident further shows that Hafsah's copy contained the manuscripts written in the presence of the Prophet. These two reports furnish conclusive proof that if there was any difference between 'Uthman's standard copy and the collection made by Abu Bakr, it was a difference only as to the mode of writing certain words. In short, there was no change of words, no change of verses and no change in the order of chapters.​

 

[Madeline]

Is it not Hate Speech, any thought?

E.g.



You can continue here to read:

Quotes from the Qur'an

Additional question, why Lefties so fervent support Islam?

Baron, I assume that this point has been made by another poster (I have not weighed through the entire thread) but here's my reply:

There is plenty of ugly, hateful stuff in the Bible. I assume you are not a Muslim, and have no idea how many variations of that faith exist among the 2 Billion or so who belong to that faith. There is positively nothing that any faith's adherents could do in its name that would stack up against the evils unleashed on humanity by christians, and so I conclude:

This Op is xenophobic, racist, religious intolerance in search of a willing audience. Yes, there is violence in the Koran. Yes, some Imans exploit those passages for their own evil purposes. So has the US, when it suited us.

Knock off the soft-pedal hate speech, please.

Madeline,

I assume you know jack shit about the Koran, but are an expert on activities of christians.

Please list, oh, let's say a dozen of the evils christianity has unleashed, hon.

The subjugation and elimination of the culture, language and beliefs of indigenious people.

The Inquisition.

The Crusades.

The Moral Majority and the perversion of the Republican Party in the US.

The sex scandals of the RCC.

The Jonestown Massacre.

The Spanish Missions; for that matter, all Missions run by the RCC.

The Salem Witch Trials.

The betrayal of Italian Jews by Pope Pius XII.

The denial of the Holocaust by Pope Pius XII.

The anti-abortion bombings and murders in the US.

The theft of Native children by "christians".

That's twelve off the top of my head....shall I use my Google-Fu and make it 1,001?

 

[Madeline]

You're a terrorist faggot I'm guessing. No?

Who are you?

This seems to be the only USMB-er to reply to this thread who is Muslim. Mebbe if you lay off insulting him, his history, scholarship, culture and beliefs you could actually hold a dialogue. Only a complete ignoramus believes the Muslim has contributed nothing to Modern Civilization.

The fact is they invented it. When the ancestors of Westerners were crawling around huts in the dark, the Ottomans were charting the stars and building palaces decorated with breath-taking art.

Ugly is as ugly does -- or speaks. On this thread, that ain't Kalam.

 

[LuckyDan]

Baron, I assume that this point has been made by another poster (I have not weighed through the entire thread) but here's my reply:

There is plenty of ugly, hateful stuff in the Bible. I assume you are not a Muslim, and have no idea how many variations of that faith exist among the 2 Billion or so who belong to that faith. There is positively nothing that any faith's adherents could do in its name that would stack up against the evils unleashed on humanity by christians, and so I conclude:

This Op is xenophobic, racist, religious intolerance in search of a willing audience. Yes, there is violence in the Koran. Yes, some Imans exploit those passages for their own evil purposes. So has the US, when it suited us.

Knock off the soft-pedal hate speech, please.

Madeline,

I assume you know jack shit about the Koran, but are an expert on activities of christians.

Please list, oh, let's say a dozen of the evils christianity has unleashed, hon.

The subjugation and elimination of the culture, language and beliefs of indigenious people.

The Inquisition.

The Crusades.

The Moral Majority and the perversion of the Republican Party in the US.

The sex scandals of the RCC.

The Jonestown Massacre.

The Spanish Missions; for that matter, all Missions run by the RCC.

The Salem Witch Trials.

The betrayal of Italian Jews by Pope Pius XII.

The denial of the Holocaust by Pope Pius XII.

The anti-abortion bombings and murders in the US.

The theft of Native children by "christians".

That's twelve off the top of my head....shall I use my Google-Fu and make it 1,001?

You've practrically taken a shit on the the thread. Let's examine it turd by turd. Starting with turd one:

The subjugation and elimination of the culture, language and beliefs of indigenious people.

What indigenous people were subjugated and eliminatad? My Injun friends will be stunned and amazed!

 

[Madeline]

I'm doubtful you respect anyone of Native origins enough to befriend them -- or they you.

Ask a Mexican. They used to have a culture of their own; now they have RCC Cola.

 

[LuckyDan]

I'm doubtful you respect anyone of Native origins enough to befriend them -- or they you.

Ask a Mexican. They used to have a culture of their own; now they have RCC Cola.

The question before you is:

What indigenous people were subjugated and eliminatad? My Injun friends will be stunned and amazed!

 

[LuckyDan]

I'm doubtful you respect anyone of Native origins enough to befriend them -- or they you.

Ask a Mexican. They used to have a culture of their own; now they have RCC Cola.

The question before you is:

What indigenous people were subjugated and eliminatad? My Injun friends will be stunned and amazed!

Maddy, hon? You there?

You're blowing up my PM box with threats. Can you take some time to answer my little question?

 

[LuckyDan]

No, no, sweetie.


I see two more messages in my PM box - and I doubt you're blowing me kisses.

Answer me if here, if you would. There's a good lass.

 

[Madeline]

Here's a song for you, LuckyDan:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvsX03LOMhI]YouTube - the sound of silence lyrics[/ame]

I have a habit of placing people unable to speak without spouting ignorant hatred in the Iggy Bin. Say hello to boedicca and GHook when you arrive.

 

[LuckyDan]

Here's a song for you, LuckyDan:

YouTube - the sound of silence lyrics

I have a habit of placing people unable to speak without spouting ignorant hatred in the Iggy Bin. Say hello to boedicca and GHook when you arrive.

Then somebody is cloggging my PM box in you're name, hon.