Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education

[chanel]

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a “college for all” emphasis may actually harm many American students – keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career…

“It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don’t get college degrees], but we’re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,” says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a “qualification” that has real currency in the labor market…

“If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we’re cheating those kids who aren’t going,” Professor Ferguson says. “A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.”

Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education Hot Air

Really? No shit?

Score one for common sense.

The question is: how do we fix the ridiculous mindset?

 

[Truthmatters]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

 

[Mini 14]

About 4 years after I graduated, I realized that a year of experience in the real world is far more valuable and educational than 4 years of college. I'm sure its different for Doctors, some Scientists, and other highly technical careers, but for the average 4 year graduate (ESPECIALLY business and management), you will learn more your first year in the real world than you did in the 4 years it took to get the degree.

The degree used to be the key to the door. Not so much any more. It is either expected or completely insignificant. College is to a career as basic training is to the military. It is a proving ground. Not much more.

Me.....I don't even ask about college anymore. I don't care what you studied, or even IF you studied, as long as your attitude is right, you're constantly trying to learn, and you're an honest person. I'd MUCH rather hire a person with 3 years management experience than someone who has made straight A's through 4-8 years of college and/or post grad. The fresh grad knows everything. I've had a BUNCH of employees who knew everything. They are, unequivocally, the worst employees. Very few of them are still with me (only those who embraced reality).

I encourage all of my employees to go to college (even at the expense of losing them), but I also realize college is a waste of time for many. Give me a good person with a great attitude, and you can keep all the Harvard grads, and PhD s.

Me and the flunky will kick your ass

 

[IanC]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

hmmm.... I sorta agree with you. more training facilities for trades in high schools is a great idea. business fundamentals training too.

wasnt it the left that did their best to phase out concrete lifeskill training in schools? insisting that everyone should take an academic track and go to college? I don't believe that conservatives would object to reinstating work preparedness in schools, even if they were called evil for supporting it.

 

[Truthmatters]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

 

[Mini 14]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

LOL.

And what do we do when everyone is a "thinker" and we have no "workers" to produce?

Have you ever heard of "Economics?"

Its more than just a buzz word

 

[IanC]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

hahaha. no sense in letting kids get a head start in job skills when you can have them vegetating and causing trouble in a class that they don't want to be in, right?

 

[Jon]

It depends on the career field, the job, the person, and the management. If you work in a place that requires little knowledge of the field coming in (banking, for instance), you are goal-oriented and want to learn, and the management is willing to train and develop you, then yes, a college degree is not going to be very valuable. They will teach you everything you need to know on the job, in time. It will take longer to advance than it would if you had gotten a degree, though, because 4 years of college puts you on the "fast track" ahead of most who don't have a degree.

However, if you want to work in a field that isn't as willing to work with people who are clueless about the field (like, say, architecture), then you're going to need a degree. I can't imagine someone starting in their first year of public accounting (or, in my case, internal audit) without having an accounting degree. They'd be useless to me.

And, of course, you have your doctors, nurses, lawyers, and teachers who most definitely do need some higher education to prepare them for their careers.

So, yes, there are some people and, more accurately, some fields that don't require a college degree. But it's certainly not required to make it to the top.

 

[Truthmatters]

People can think and work at the same time.

Not teaching kids the basics and teaching them only what they need to be a low level worker is cheap but stupid.

 

[chanel]

Every HS teacher I know has been saying this for years. Handicapped students who can barely count change are now being "mainsstreamed" into Algebra/Trigonometry classes. It defies logic and it's almost abusive IMHO.

And by forcing non academic kids into college prep programs, it dumbs down the standards for everyone.

We need someone in charge who understands this and REALLY "cares about the children." And the future of this country. I hope this study opens some eyes.

 

[Truthmatters]

Will it open up your pocket book?

Will you just start screaming "throwing money at the problem" like the right wing taught you to do anytime education comes up?

 

[IanC]

Will it open up your pocket book?

Will you just start screaming "throwing money at the problem" like the right wing taught you to do anytime education comes up?

what a whiney little bitch you are!

even when people agree with you (sorta), you still shriek.

give the kids what they need rather than impose one-size-fits-all. I know lots of kids that want to be a plumber or mechanic. letting them learn about something that they are interested in has the added bonus of them not hating the rest of school as well. you do have to be a thinker to be a tradesman or even a warehouseman. sorry, tradesperson or warehouseperson.

 

[Cuyo]

The truth of the matter is that many are not smart enough to go to college and do well - That's just the way it is, and it's not anyone's "Fault." One of the biggest problems this country faces IMO is that we don't exactly know what to do with these individuals; We don't want them to leech off the public dole, but we don't want to protect their jobs from outsourcing, either. It's unfortunate that we have a culture to pressure such people to go to college and inevitably fail out, because they just aren't smart enough - All the effort and dedication in the world will not help. Simply, their natural intelligence is not enough.

As far as the college degree itself- Mini nailed it, it's a proving ground. You're showing that you're intelligent and driven enough to earn the degree, so you're likely to be intelligent and driven enough to do well in a professional work environment. It's a barometer for character. Most people I know aren't even working in the field in which they majored.

Myself - I went to a vocational-style trade school after high school, then became an entrepreneur, then went back to "Real" college while still self-employed, and the college helped me enormously; Management and business theory, economics, business law courses, hell I've even employed things I've learned in statistics and other math courses to my business. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone, and certainly doesn't mean the college grad is automatically the best candidate for the job.

 

[goldcatt]

I would agree too many are shoved into 4-year academic colleges. For many fields the academic basis is necessary, for many others a 2-year degree is sufficient, for skilled trades often little classroom instruction is needed at all.

But post-secondary education in general is here to stay. We simply don't have an economy that has much room for unskilled workers, and that's not going to change. What we need to be doing is improving technical and trade school and programs, going back to formalized apprenticeship programs, and coming up with new programs like those in some areas where 2-year community colleges are targeting degrees or certifications in specialties of local interest.

And for goodness' sake, parents need to stop building their kids' college applications in elementary school and believing they or their children are failures if they don't get into Harvard!

 

[asterism]

People can think and work at the same time.

Not teaching kids the basics and teaching them only what they need to be a low level worker is cheap but stupid.

It's possible to teach physics by analyzing all facets of a modern car. Then the worker not only knows how to produce something but also has a good foundation of Science. Instead, the solution has been to teach them physics in a very boring way which results in someone who barely understands the material and can't fix a car.

That said, there isn't much value to a "thinker" who really doesn't know anything practical and in many cases they never learned how to think or learn, they just regurgitate.

 

[Bfgrn]

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a “college for all” emphasis may actually harm many American students – keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career…

“It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don’t get college degrees], but we’re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,” says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a “qualification” that has real currency in the labor market…

“If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we’re cheating those kids who aren’t going,” Professor Ferguson says. “A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.”

Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education Hot Air

Really? No shit?

Score one for common sense.

The question is: how do we fix the ridiculous mindset?

A living wage.

FYI...here is a program the late great Sargent Shriver started as part of the Economic Opportunity Act, which established the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO), better know as the 'War on Poverty'


Job Corp
Job Corps offers career planning, on-the-job training, job placement, residential housing, food service, driver's education, basic health and dental care, a bi-weekly basic living allowance and clothing allowance. Some centers offer childcare programs for single parents as well.

Besides vocational training, the Job Corps program also offers academic training, including basic reading and math, GED attainment, college preparatory, and Limited English Proficiency courses.

Career paths

Career paths offered by Job Corps include:

Advanced manufacturing

* Communication design
* Drafting
* Electronic assembly
* Machine appliance repair
* Machining
* Welding
* Manufacturing technology
* Sign, billboard, and display

Automotive and machine repair

* Automobile technician
* General services technician
* Collision repair and refinish
* Heavy construction equipment mechanic
* Diesel mechanic
* Medium/heavy truck repair
* Electronics tech
* Stationary engineering

Construction

* Bricklaying
* Carpentry
* Cement masonry
* Concrete and terrazzo
* Construction craft laborer
* Electrical
* Electrical overhead line
* Facilities maintenance
* Floor covering
* Glazing
* HVAC
* Industrial engineering technician
* Licensed electrician (bilingual)
* Mechanical engineering technician
* Painting
* Plastering
* Plumbing
* Roto-Rooter plumbing
* Tile setting

Extension programs

* Advanced Career Training (ACT)
* General Educational Development (GED)
* Commercial driver's license (CDL)
* Off-Center Training (OCT Program)
* High school diploma (HSD Program)

Finance and Business

* Accounting services
* Business management
* Clerical occupations
* Legal secretary
* Insurance and financial services
* Marketing
* Medical insurance specialist
* Office administration
* Paralegal
* Purchasing

Health care/allied health professions

* Clinical medical assistant
* Dental assistant
* EKG technician
* Emergency medical technician
* Exercise/massage therapy
* Hemodialysis technician
* Licensed practical/vocational nurse
* Medical office support
* Nurse assistant/home health aide
* Opticianry
* Pharmacy technician
* Phlebotomy
* Physical therapy assistant
* Rehabilitation therapy
* Rehabilitation technician
* Registered nurse
* Respiratory therapy
* Sterile processing
* Surgical technician

Homeland security

* Corrections officer
* Seamanship
* Security and protective services

Hospitality

* Culinary arts
* Hotel and lodging

Information technology

* A+ Microsoft MSCE
* Computer Networking/Cisco
* Computer systems administrator
* Computer support specialist
* Computer technician
* Integrated system tech
* Network cable installation
* Visual communications

Renewable resources and energy

* Forest conservation and urban forestry
* Firefighting
* Wastewater
* Landscaping

Retail sales and services

* Behavioral health aide
* Criminal justice
* Child development
* Residential advisor
* Cosmetology
* Retail sales

Transportation

* Asphalt paving
* Material and distribution operations
* Clerical occupations
* Heavy equipment operations
* Roustabout operator
* Heavy truck driving
* TCU administrative clerk

"Labor is the United States. The men and women, who with their minds, their hearts and hands, create the wealth that is shared in this country—they are America."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[Truthmatters]

People can think and work at the same time.

Not teaching kids the basics and teaching them only what they need to be a low level worker is cheap but stupid.

It's possible to teach physics by analyzing all facets of a modern car. Then the worker not only knows how to produce something but also has a good foundation of Science. Instead, the solution has been to teach them physics in a very boring way which results in someone who barely understands the material and can't fix a car.

That said, there isn't much value to a "thinker" who really doesn't know anything practical and in many cases they never learned how to think or learn, they just regurgitate.

And to do these programs you need good teachers who require more payment than the 23,000 a year most starting teachers make.

You need an investment in schools to change them and EVERY time in my 50+ years talk of fixing schools comes up the right just ends up screaming "throwing money at the problem" and ends any attempts to make it better.

 

[asterism]

People can think and work at the same time.

Not teaching kids the basics and teaching them only what they need to be a low level worker is cheap but stupid.

It's possible to teach physics by analyzing all facets of a modern car. Then the worker not only knows how to produce something but also has a good foundation of Science. Instead, the solution has been to teach them physics in a very boring way which results in someone who barely understands the material and can't fix a car.

That said, there isn't much value to a "thinker" who really doesn't know anything practical and in many cases they never learned how to think or learn, they just regurgitate.

And to do these programs you need good teachers who require more payment than the 23,000 a year most starting teachers make.

Not necessarily true, but first you need teachers that know Physics *and* know how to fix a car. How many people with degrees in Education do? The money isn't the immediate problem, it's the structure of the system.

You need an investment in schools to change them and EVERY time in my 50+ years talk of fixing schools comes up the right just ends up screaming "throwing money at the problem" and ends any attempts to make it better.

There's a decent basis for that, education funding has increased exponentially while the quality of the result has sunk. Simply spending more money won't fix it and I don't think our schools need more money, just better priorities in spending the money they have.

I did an internship at a TV repair shop when I was in high school. I fetched tools, held flashlights, and wrote estimates for a few hours a week. It counted as one elective class for my diploma. Along the way, I learned how to fix a TV and received one of the best presentations of electrical circuits. This program did not cost the school one dime but was cancelled. Why do you think they did that?

 

[Truthmatters]

You know what else has increased exponetially, the number of students.

We have relegated education to the back burner.

The right excoriates teachers and pays them dirt wages.

 

[asterism]

You know what else has increased exponetially, the number of students.

We have relegated education to the back burner.

The right excoriates teachers and pays them dirt wages.

I noticed you didn't address any points, so allow me to clarify:

The per-student funding has increased exponentially while the quality has sunk.

$23,000 per year starting salary for a 10 month work year isn't "dirt wages." It's not huge, but it's not bad for a job that requires no experience and a relatively easy degree with built in steps for automatic raises. Also, there are plenty of school districts that start their new teachers at significantly higher salaries. But the problem isn't the starting salary, it's the lack of a workable system to pay great teachers great money. That's not a funding issue, it's a management issue.

Can you substantiate your claim that "most" starting teachers make $23,000 per year? My research says differently.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state