Guns, what are the issues?

[M14 Shooter]

The "Issues" are simple:
-A tiny percentage of gun owners, only a small percentage of whom legally own their guns, commit a relatively small number of gun-related ccrimes
-In an fallacious effort to prevent people from committing crimes with guns, some people want to rerstrict the rights of the law abiding.
-None of the people who want these additional restrictions can create a sound argument for doing so

 

[PratchettFan]

By the way, as an addendum, we tried selective enforcement in high crime cities and the gun rights people had a cow about it. That was what gave us Heller. There is no regulation that people of a certain ilk will accept, so we should stop even considering their lack of contribution to or support of alternative violence measures or gun regulations. They are wasted energy for those of us who are willing to make reasonable compromises, whether those compromises yield guaranteed results or not.

We have 20,000 gun laws in this country at every level. How many more do you need?

While we're on the subject, gun owners have compromised and compromised and compromised. What do we get in return? What do the gun grabbers ever give up in their end of those reasonable compromise?

We just need 1 more and that will do it.

No. It won't.

 

[daniel.k]

I can see you missed the main point I was trying to make. I was not advertizing for any more gun control laws. In fact, i already said laws don't work in controlling gun violence. It is the attitude of wanting to own a gun that's the problem - there is a sense of insecurity and defenselessness without them. Once this mentality of craving to possess guns is gone, people will feel safe and free without them. If I were a gun owner, I would be constantly worried about it being mishandled, taken by someone when least expecting. Just a couple of months ago, a guy put his gun on top a of microwave for a few moments when a toddler pulled the trigger to kill his sister. Every time, it is most probable this lethal tool will be used by a criminal or a mentally ill person. It is most probable the gun owner have no use of it until the end of his life. The problem is, with the use of gun in a fight between two people, a life is wasted at the pull of a trigger. You don't see that happening in a fist fight. I do believe many American gun owners still hung on to the old wild wild west mentality.

 

[PratchettFan]

No to your last question. As to the highlighted part, did you ever consider that perhaps all those movies in the 80's and 90's glorifying gangland gun violence may have had an impact on poor kids in those cities and we are at the trailing edge of that trend's effects?

Yea it's the movies.

Nothing do with drugs, poverty, lack of parental authority, etc..... it's the movies.

I'd be amazed if you could even dress yourself.

I probably could if I had to, but then my valet would no longer be needed, and in this economy, it would be rude to let him go.

When I see gun defenders advocating for poverty programs instead of screaming "We need lower taxes" and supporting drug programs instead of taking them out of prisons, you faux outrage will have merit. Until then, it is as faux as the rest of your gun arguments.

No problem there. We need better poverty programs. We need to treat drugs as a medical issue rather than a legal one. We need to provide medical care to everyone under a single payer system. We need our schools to be palaces and teaching to be a highly paid profession. We can do all of that if we spend more time on programs to help people live than on laws to tell them how to live. And if I want to own an arsenal, it is no business but mine.

Does that help?

 

[PratchettFan]

I can see you missed the main point I was trying to make. I was not advertizing for any more gun control laws. In fact, i already said laws don't work in controlling gun violence. It is the attitude of wanting to own a gun that's the problem - there is a sense of insecurity and defenselessness without them. Once this mentality of craving to possess guns is gone, people will feel safe and free without them. If I were a gun owner, I would be constantly worried about it being mishandled, taken by someone when least expecting. Just a couple of months ago, a guy put his gun on top a of microwave for a few moments when a toddler pulled the trigger to kill his sister. Every time, it is most probable this lethal tool will be used by a criminal or a mentally ill person. It is most probable the gun owner have no use of it until the end of his life. The problem is, with the use of gun in a fight between two people, a life is wasted at the pull of a trigger. You don't see that happening in a fist fight. I do believe many American gun owners still hung on to the old wild wild west mentality.

Then you shouldn't own a gun. I own mine because I like to shoot. But if someone wants to own them because they like to fantasize, that is their right.

 

[Missourian]

No to your last question. As to the highlighted part, did you ever consider that perhaps all those movies in the 80's and 90's glorifying gangland gun violence may have had an impact on poor kids in those cities and we are at the trailing edge of that trend's effects?

Yea it's the movies.

Nothing do with drugs, poverty, lack of parental authority, etc..... it's the movies.

I'd be amazed if you could even dress yourself.

I probably could if I had to, but then my valet would no longer be needed, and in this economy, it would be rude to let him go.

When I see gun defenders advocating for poverty programs instead of screaming "We need lower taxes" and supporting drug programs instead of taking them out of prisons, you faux outrage will have merit. Until then, it is as faux as the rest of your gun arguments.

The truth is the truth...who advocates for what is irrelevant.

 

[sameech]

No problem there. We need better poverty programs. We need to treat drugs as a medical issue rather than a legal one. We need to provide medical care to everyone under a single payer system. We need our schools to be palaces and teaching to be a highly paid profession. We can do all of that if we spend more time on programs to help people live than on laws to tell them how to live. And if I want to own an arsenal, it is no business but mine.

Does that help?

Not really. I want our schools to be much smaller and more utilitarian and teachers to be paid comparable to average salaries not median household incomes as they are not a profession; healthcare I am indifferent on as long as quality of care does not tank; drugs should be treated as both a medical and a legal issue; and yes, we need better poverty programs;and yes, you should be able to have an arsenal of as many double barrel shotguns and single shot guns as you care to buy.

 

[Steven_R]

By the way, as an addendum, we tried selective enforcement in high crime cities and the gun rights people had a cow about it. That was what gave us Heller. There is no regulation that people of a certain ilk will accept, so we should stop even considering their lack of contribution to or support of alternative violence measures or gun regulations. They are wasted energy for those of us who are willing to make reasonable compromises, whether those compromises yield guaranteed results or not.

We have 20,000 gun laws in this country at every level. How many more do you need?

While we're on the subject, gun owners have compromised and compromised and compromised. What do we get in return? What do the gun grabbers ever give up in their end of those reasonable compromise?

We just need 1 more and that will do it.

What do the gun owners get in return for your universal background checks? What do you give up?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So basically, there are no issues because California has everything you claim you want, and more, yet this still happened.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So basically, there are no issues because California has everything you claim you want, and more, yet this still happened.

Indeed.

The problem as I noted, is that you cannot pass laws that will prevent people from breaking the law.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That they account for roughly 100 murders a year out of 12K a year shows that the glorification of guns and violence is a societal problem...

How, exactly is that?
Any way you want to calculate it, those 100 murders are, at best, an anomaly.

These stand your ground laws are Orwellian proof of how obsessed people are with guns...

"Orwellian" genereally refers to something that hinders or is destructive to a free, open society.
How does the state recognizing a greater freedom to protect yourself do that?

you can kill anybody you want, even if you were the original aggressor.

Ah. You don't understand what "self defense" means. There's your problem.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes. I doubt it is always exactly 1%

If they accounted for most murders, it would be a different dynamic. That they account for roughly 100 murders a year out of 12K a year shows that the glorification of guns and violence is a societal problem, not just a problem for white males in the late teens and early 20's with histories of mental illness, antisocial behaviors, video game addictions, and youtube manifesto makings.

These stand your ground laws are Orwellian proof of how obsessed people are with guns--you can kill anybody you want, even if you were the original aggressor. Last man standing is exempt from prosecution as long as it was on their property or the other person did not yield to their libertarian authority and they claim to have been in fear of their lives.

The thing is most gun deaths about 80% or so according to the CDC are related to gang violence.

If we took just 6 of our most violent cities out of the count the murder rate would be more in line with other countries.

The fact is that most murders involve criminals in large urban areas.

So it is more a problem with our cities and the failures of the governing bodies of those cities than it is with guns.

More people living outside of large urban areas legally own guns than do people in large urban areas and yet have a much lower murder rate.

By your logic wouldn't the people with the most guns commit most of the murders?

No to your last question. As to the highlighted part, did you ever consider that perhaps all those movies in the 80's and 90's glorifying gangland gun violence may have had an impact on poor kids in those cities and we are at the trailing edge of that trend's effects?

So guns are a problem but the people with the most guns are the least violent?

to your last question: No i don't think movies cause gang violence.

 

[PratchettFan]

No problem there. We need better poverty programs. We need to treat drugs as a medical issue rather than a legal one. We need to provide medical care to everyone under a single payer system. We need our schools to be palaces and teaching to be a highly paid profession. We can do all of that if we spend more time on programs to help people live than on laws to tell them how to live. And if I want to own an arsenal, it is no business but mine.

Does that help?

Not really. I want our schools to be much smaller and more utilitarian and teachers to be paid comparable to average salaries not median household incomes as they are not a profession; healthcare I am indifferent on as long as quality of care does not tank; drugs should be treated as both a medical and a legal issue; and yes, we need better poverty programs;and yes, you should be able to have an arsenal of as many double barrel shotguns and single shot guns as you care to buy.

So basically, you just want the rest of us to live according to your rules. It isn't about making things any better.

 

[PratchettFan]

No problem there. We need better poverty programs. We need to treat drugs as a medical issue rather than a legal one. We need to provide medical care to everyone under a single payer system. We need our schools to be palaces and teaching to be a highly paid profession. We can do all of that if we spend more time on programs to help people live than on laws to tell them how to live. And if I want to own an arsenal, it is no business but mine.

Does that help?

Not really. I want our schools to be much smaller and more utilitarian and teachers to be paid comparable to average salaries not median household incomes as they are not a profession; healthcare I am indifferent on as long as quality of care does not tank; drugs should be treated as both a medical and a legal issue; and yes, we need better poverty programs;and yes, you should be able to have an arsenal of as many double barrel shotguns and single shot guns as you care to buy.

BTW... in order to be a teacher you are required to first obtain the appropriate degrees and then be certified by the state in order to do your job. That makes it a profession.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

What I see here is many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.
Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearm in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and stop the real gun violence in our country?

 

[S.J.]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

What I see here is many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.
Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearm in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and stop the real gun violence in our country?

Can't do that, it would be discriminating against minorities.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

What I see here is many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.
Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearm in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and stop the real gun violence in our country?

What does any of this have to do with the UCSB shooting? He bought those guns legally, and went through 3 seperate background checks. Are you confused by the fact that California actually has eliminated that "secondary market" you are hyperventilating about? Or do you just have aproblem with sticking to the actual question I raised?

 

[AntiParty]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

Bias parties paid for by donations from organizations always corrupt natural thinking on this topic. It's really pretty basic.

All parties have extremeists that make either side look stupid. Luckily, some of us don't listen to them and think for ourselves.

The 2A protects our rights to guns. This can be changed but it's not probable. The only danger in it changing is, yes, extremeists. Open carry of AR's in Chipotle, really? Why, were you in danger? Are we in Africa? Have we not developed as people enough to know that we aren't in danger enough to have an AR on our shoulder for NO REASON?

So let's stop the extremeists and keep our integrity as gun owners.

Also, gun technology is advancing very fast. You have to think to yourself, at what point is it ok for my crazy neighbor to own the newest weapon out.

And last, I'm alone on this one, but why don't we have a program for gun ownership like we do deer hunting. I actually learned a lot in my deer hunting course of when to shoot and when not to shoot (in brush). A program like this would NOT infringe the right of anyone to own a gun. It would simply ensure the people that aren't educated enough to use/store it properly..........the majority of the people who use them wrongly.......don't get one until they learn how to be an adult. No one is prevented from having a weapon, they just need to think beyond a junior high level to have one.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

What I see here is many people stricken by shock and grief and who have the means to make their voice heard. Very little is said about homicides among our poor.
Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deadly mass shootings have resulted in considerable coverage by the media. These shootings have represented 1% of all deaths by gun between 1980 and 2008.​

The United States has a murder rate on par with Thailand.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of those murders, of the ones for which the FBI received weapons data, 67.5% involve the use of firearm in 2010.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data
The vast majority of homicides with a firearm were committed using a handgun, not an assault weapon. Most of these guns used in these homicides are obtained on the black market. The black market is fueled by the unregulated secondary market.

What are the proposals to curtail this secondary market and stop the real gun violence in our country?

What does any of this have to do with the UCSB shooting? He bought those guns legally, and went through 3 seperate background checks. Are you confused by the fact that California actually has eliminated that "secondary market" you are hyperventilating about? Or do you just have aproblem with sticking to the actual question I raised?

I have a problem with the gun control debate being dominated by the coverage of mass shootings. And are we pretending that illegal firearms don't cross state lines, because I didn't get that memo.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am, once again, being accused of not addressing the issues of gun control regarding mass shootings. My problem with that accusation is that I literally do not get the issues.

California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. In order to buy a handgun you have to have be over 21, show a drivers license and proof of residency, provide proof that you took a gun safety course, demonstrate to the dealer at the time of sale that you can safely handle the gun you are trying to purchase, and then you go through the background check with a 10 day waiting period. Elliot Rogers did this on 3 separate occasions, and thus legally owned 3 pistols. California also prohibits any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds, so Rogers had 41 magazines with him, none of which held over 10 rounds. What issues am I failing to address when I point out that gun control laws don't prevent mass shootings?

Bias parties paid for by donations from organizations always corrupt natural thinking on this topic. It's really pretty basic.

All parties have extremeists that make either side look stupid. Luckily, some of us don't listen to them and think for ourselves.

The 2A protects our rights to guns. This can be changed but it's not probable. The only danger in it changing is, yes, extremeists. Open carry of AR's in Chipotle, really? Why, were you in danger? Are we in Africa? Have we not developed as people enough to know that we aren't in danger enough to have an AR on our shoulder for NO REASON?

So let's stop the extremeists and keep our integrity as gun owners.

Also, gun technology is advancing very fast. You have to think to yourself, at what point is it ok for my crazy neighbor to own the newest weapon out.

And last, I'm alone on this one, but why don't we have a program for gun ownership like we do deer hunting. I actually learned a lot in my deer hunting course of when to shoot and when not to shoot (in brush). A program like this would NOT infringe the right of anyone to own a gun. It would simply ensure the people that aren't educated enough to use/store it properly..........the majority of the people who use them wrongly.......don't get one until they learn how to be an adult. No one is prevented from having a weapon, they just need to think beyond a junior high level to have one.

Why do I have to think that?