Gun Control or Lunatic Control?

[Skull Pilot]

You forgot

"Controlling lunatics by using guns"

as a poll option.

 

[chanel]

How do you expect to control "lunatics" if you advocate cutting and defunding mental health services... or are you under the impression that all mentally ill people are wealthy? Care to know what percentage of our homeless here in NYC are mentally ill? And we HAVE mental health programs for the poor (fewer than needed, as they are the first things cut), unlike many areas of the country. You want a sink or swim societey? Welcome to reality.

While I agree with you that mental health services are extremely important, it didn't help Jared, (or more importantly - his victims) did it? His mother had excellent insurance which I'm sure included mental health services. The "system" was not at fault here. At what point do we hold parents accountable?

 

[Ravi]

At least until the end of last year, mental health was not covered well by insurance. I think the limit was either $1,000 or $2,500 per year...which isn't enough to receive treatment. Also, he was an adult and not in school...so did his parent's insurance even cover him?

 

[Wingsofwind]

On the Left is a 'Clip' and on the Right is a 'Magazine'.

I have seen 3 people in this thread use the word 'clip' when refering to a 'magazine'. Now that you know the difference please use the correct term for what you are refering to. If you are going to talk about firearms, please learn about them so you can debate intelligently.

You can't even spell and you want to argue meaningless semantics that have nothing to do with the validity of the points being made?

Typing errors are not spelling errors . Sometimes when I am typing fast my fingers do not work like I want them to.

Also I did not post this to put anyone down but rather to inform. However, your post to me was not to inform, it was to attack. I bet if I go through all of your post I can find something in your typing that is incorrect. Should I use that to attack you?

 

[FifthColumn]

On the Left is a 'Clip' and on the Right is a 'Magazine'.

I have seen 3 people in this thread use the word 'clip' when refering to a 'magazine'. Now that you know the difference please use the correct term for what you are refering to. If you are going to talk about firearms, please learn about them so you can debate intelligently.

This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for shooting. This is for fun.

Tomato= "Toe-May-Toe" "Toe-Ma-Toe"

 

[chanel]

At least until the end of last year, mental health was not covered well by insurance. I think the limit was either $1,000 or $2,500 per year...which isn't enough to receive treatment. Also, he was an adult and not in school...so did his parent's insurance even cover him?

Not sure of the rules in AZ. Here in NJ, kids are covered until 26. But he dropped out of school at 17 after an episode of alcohol poisoning, so certainly they had a clue then. He was nuts at college, so they had a clue then. And even if they had to pay out of pocket, it would have been money well spent. They could afford to support him and he got money somewhere to buy drugs and a gun. The parents bear a great deal of responsibility IMHO.

 

[editec]

I'm surprised no one connected the dots of Loughner's drug abuse to his mental state
Smoking marijuana ups risk of schizophrenia: study | Reuters

Could legalizing marijuana increase mass murders or "assassinations" ?

How about drug tests before buying guns or ammo?

How about mandatory drug tests period to stay out of "therapy"?

I'm waiting for Palin to start hammering the Left on Loughner's mental status viz drug use AS VERIFIED BY THE ABOVE STUDY!!

Guns don't kill people, people on drugs kill people!!

That study is flawed.

Wanna know how I know that?

Okay.

The incidient of pot smokers among the population of WWII folks was practically ZERO.

Their the incidence of their children (the boomers) who smoked pot was about 25%.

That's an increase in the rate of many thousands times.

Nevertheless, the incident of schizophrenia is actually DOWN between the boomer generation and the WWII generation.

Now I believe in science and statistics.

But when a study of an extrmely small subset of the whole set refutes the REALITY of the entire set, then the study is flawed.

How was it flawed?

I really don't know.

But if that study was right then the incidence of schizophrenia would have risen many THOUSANDS of times between the WWI and boomer generation.

 

[Ravi]

At least until the end of last year, mental health was not covered well by insurance. I think the limit was either $1,000 or $2,500 per year...which isn't enough to receive treatment. Also, he was an adult and not in school...so did his parent's insurance even cover him?

Not sure of the rules in AZ. Here in NJ, kids are covered until 26. But he dropped out of school at 17 after an episode of alcohol poisoning, so certainly they had a clue then. He was nuts at college, so they had a clue then. And even if they had to pay out of pocket, it would have been money well spent. They could afford to support him and he got money somewhere to buy drugs and a gun. The parents bear a great deal of responsibility IMHO.

I'm not so sure since I don't know the details of their family life.

Would you blame the wife if it were the husband that did this? At what point or age does one become responsible for their own actions and stop blaming their parents?

 

[SnagNasty]

It's not about gun control, Sarah Palin, the Media or the other politicians - it's about our collective reluctance to deal with mental illness. The term "lunatic" only goes to further stigmatize the mentally ill. Until we start talking about mental illness in the same manner as we can talk of cancer and other physical illness, we are going to get no where.

1 out of 4 people suffer from a diagnosable mental illness in their young years - check NAMI or NIMH for the studies. I can't post links here yet.

Most of us will have to deal with a son, daughter, brother, sister, father, mother who suffers from MI at some time in our life. It can be devastating in financial, physical and mental cost. It can tear families apart.

It's a complicated situation that requires serious effort. If you son/daughter over 17 years of age, ever gets stricken by bi-polar, schizophrenia, schizo-effective disorder, severe depression -- or other, you'll find yourself in a world of pain as a parent. You'll have to try and navigate HIPPA laws that will block you from having informational access to your child. Good luck getting your kid a free bed in a hospital. It is a painful process. I have been thru it.

You really want to help - donate to NAMI or urge your politicians to quit cutting care for mental health programs. At the least, pull your head out of the sand and quit calling the mentally ill lunatics.

 

[Two Thumbs]

None of the above

It's The Right to bear arms.

no

The Right to bear arms except


I'll take my freedoms, my indepenence and our Constitution everyday of the week, warts and all.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I'm surprised no one connected the dots of Loughner's drug abuse to his mental state
Smoking marijuana ups risk of schizophrenia: study | Reuters

Could legalizing marijuana increase mass murders or "assassinations" ?

How about drug tests before buying guns or ammo?

How about mandatory drug tests period to stay out of "therapy"?

I'm waiting for Palin to start hammering the Left on Loughner's mental status viz drug use AS VERIFIED BY THE ABOVE STUDY!!

Guns don't kill people, people on drugs kill people!!

That study is flawed.

Wanna know how I know that?

Okay.

The incidient of pot smokers among the population of WWII folks was practically ZERO.

Their the incidence of their children (the boomers) who smoked pot was about 25%.

That's an increase in the rate of many thousands times.

Nevertheless, the incident of schizophrenia is actually DOWN between the boomer generation and the WWII generation.

Now I believe in science and statistics.

But when a study of an extrmely small subset of the whole set refutes the REALITY of the entire set, then the study is flawed.

How was it flawed?

I really don't know.

But if that study was right then the incidence of schizophrenia would have risen many THOUSANDS of times between the WWI and boomer generation.

"Shell shocke" was described as schizophrenia. Maybe they took that into account

 

[SnagNasty]

Schizophrenia can be drug induced or at least a catalyst for initiating the first "psychotic break".
Most times Schizophrenia happens to younger adults as their frontal lobe begins to develop and things go hay wire.
The one take away point in this thread needs to be “Treated people who suffer from Mental Illness are no more likely to engage in criminal action that the rest of the population”.
Now if we can only break the stigma of Mental illness. When we can start to have fund raisers for Mrs. Smith’s kid who developed Schizophrenia in the same open air as we can for cancer patients – we’ll be getting somewhere.
And yea… untreated mental illness is as deadly as cancer.

 

[kyzr]

Schizophrenia can be drug induced or at least a catalyst for initiating the first "psychotic break".
Most times Schizophrenia happens to younger adults as their frontal lobe begins to develop and things go hay wire.
The one take away point in this thread needs to be “Treated people who suffer from Mental Illness are no more likely to engage in criminal action that the rest of the population”.
Now if we can only break the stigma of Mental illness. When we can start to have fund raisers for Mrs. Smith’s kid who developed Schizophrenia in the same open air as we can for cancer patients – we’ll be getting somewhere.
And yea… untreated mental illness is as deadly as cancer.

You're speaking in the abstract and not recommending a policy. For example, do you support the legalization of marijuana? Do you think that drug use had any influence on Loughner and his mass murder?

We all know Loughner was not influenced by the "Right's" rhetoric, so what was the most probable cause of the shooting and what policies would reduce their likelihood?

 

[ABikerSailor]

First off......if you look at the 3 pictures of Laughtner, you'd see a change from a long haired kid with a normal look on his face, to a short haired dude, still with a normal look on his face to a grinning lunatic who shaved his eyebrows off.

Anyone who looked at those pictures could see the progression of crazy.

As far as having 30 round magazines? Like I said before, provide ANY kind of justification for carrying that amount of ammo in 1 gun, besides killing people, or in a war zone.

There is none.

Interestingly enough, an AK-47 only carries 35 rounds. Why did Laughtner have to have almost as much ammo in his handgun as terrorists do in their automatic weapons.

No. You shouldn't regulate guns any more than you have to, but outside police and military applications, I think that 10-15 rounds/gun is more than enough.

 

[SnagNasty]

The most probable reason of the shooting, and I could be wrong, is that he had an untreated mental illness and was psychotic.

Quit cutting funding for mental health. Spend more on mental health and programs that have proven over and over again that they work. Make it easier to distribute patient information to the family (this one needs to be handled with care) when it comes to Mental Illness. Did you know that if your 17 year old kid gets picked up and actually admitted to a mental health facility, they will not call you and let you know due to patient rights? The only way you will know is if your ill kid gives the hospital permission to contact you. This person may be under a heavy psychotic episode. See the dilemma?
Couple this with the fact that mentally ill people are way more likely able to recover if they have a supportive family network.

It's not easy stuff to fix and requires hard work and lots of thought and caution.
The "lunatic control" portion of this thread only helps perpetuate the stigmatization of mental illness. Stigma is probably the #1 reason why people keep mental illness so well hidden. Very few people, media, politicians and people on this board are talking about mental illness and its terrible ramifications when untreated.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

While I agree with you that mental health services are extremely important, it didn't help Jared, (or more importantly - his victims) did it? His mother had excellent insurance which I'm sure included mental health services. The "system" was not at fault here. At what point do we hold parents accountable?

Yes, the system is at fault. This person is not a child, and hasn't been one for a long time. He is 22 years old, and obviously started having symptoms of mental illness while in college AFTER he turned 18. How do his parents have any liability for his mental disease care? What did the college counselors do? Did they try to help him, or did they just kick him out?

 

[Ravi]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hmmm.........wonder if care for the mentally ill is covered under Obama care?

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

Sadly, left untreated, the majority commit suicide, especially the ones with severe mental illness like schizoprhenia and bipolar disorder.

 

[Ravi]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

Sadly, left untreated, the majority commit suicide, especially the ones with severe mental illness like schizoprhenia and bipolar disorder.

Perhaps. I am becoming uncomfortable however with this meme of lumping all the mentally ill into Loughner.

On second thought, I don't even know if it is true that most commit suicide. I have a schizophrenic cousin who has lived on the streets for thirty years and as far as I know has never attempted to commit suicide...and she refuses treatment.