Gun Control or Lunatic Control?

[FifthColumn]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

Should Mexican drug cartels be left untreated?

 

[FifthColumn]

No. You shouldn't regulate guns any more than you have to, but outside police and military applications, I think that 10-15 rounds/gun is more than enough.

Depends on how many Mexicans live around you.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

Probably because liberals are typically against gun ownership.

 

[SnagNasty]

Hmmm.........wonder if care for the mentally ill is covered under Obama care?

Actually GWBush created some of the first legislation that helped the mentally ill and insurance. He signed into effect a law called "Michelle's Law" Michelle was a young woman in college who was diagnosed with cancer. The only way insurance would let her continue on her parents plan is if she stayed in college full time and not drop out. She opted to stay in full time and receive treatment. Sadly she died shortly after graduation. Mental illness falls under the legislation.

The plan under Obama now covers young adults to age 26 who have a disability - regardless. Mental illness falls under this portion of current plan.

I applaud both presidents in both cases. You should too.

 

[JBeukema]

On the Left is a 'Clip' and on the Right is a 'Magazine'.

I have seen 3 people in this thread use the word 'clip' when refering to a 'magazine'. Now that you know the difference please use the correct term for what you are refering to. If you are going to talk about firearms, please learn about them so you can debate intelligently.

You can't even spell and you want to argue meaningless semantics that have nothing to do with the validity of the points being made?

Typing errors are not spelling errors . Sometimes when I am typing fast my fingers do not work like I want them to.

Also I did not post this to put anyone down but rather to inform. However, your post to me was not to inform, it was to attack. I bet if I go through all of your post I can find something in your typing that is incorrect. Should I use that to attack you?

Misspelling the same word the same way with each use is not a typographical error.

That you're not even honest enough to own up to the fact that you didn't know the correct spelling tells us all we need to know about your constitution.

 

[JBeukema]

First off......if you look at the 3 pictures of Laughtner, you'd see a change from a long haired kid with a normal look on his face, to a short haired dude, still with a normal look on his face to a grinning lunatic who shaved his eyebrows off.

Anyone who looked at those pictures could see the progression of crazy.

As far as having 30 round magazines? Like I said before, provide ANY kind of justification for carrying that amount of ammo in 1 gun, besides killing people, or in a war zone.

There is none.

Interestingly enough, an AK-47 only carries 35 rounds. Why did Laughtner have to have almost as much ammo in his handgun as terrorists do in their automatic weapons.

No. You shouldn't regulate guns any more than you have to, but outside police and military applications, I think that 10-15 rounds/gun is more than enough.

That sounds reasonable enough to me.

 

[SnagNasty]

Even left untreated I bet the vast majority of mentally ill people do not gun people down.

True but the crime rate appears to go up among the untreated mentally ill. So do the incarceration rates.

We can do a lot to help mental illness by breaking the stigma and thus helping to keep crime down - maybe even instances like Tuscon.

It is clear that we do not do enough now to get help to the mentally ill and their families.

 

[chanel]

Not in this case. It was his parents' responsibility in seeking treatment for their son who was clearly insane. There are involuntary commitment laws for a reason. The psychopath isn't going to check himself in. That's the parents' job. Shame on them. A clear case of negligence on their part. 1000 bucks could have bought a diagnosis.

 

[SnagNasty]

Not in this case. It was his parents' responsibility in seeking treatment for their son who was clearly insane. There are involuntary commitment laws for a reason. The psychopath isn't going to check himself in. That's the parents' job. Shame on them. A clear case of negligence on their part. 1000 bucks could have bought a diagnosis.

It is not clear on how much treatment his parents seeked for their son. What I can tell you, is having walked the mental illness structure for a loved one, it is not easy to commit a person over 17 nor make them get treatment. It is very hard to do and extremely hard on the families trying to do so.

 

[FA_Q2]

Not in this case. It was his parents' responsibility in seeking treatment for their son who was clearly insane. There are involuntary commitment laws for a reason. The psychopath isn't going to check himself in. That's the parents' job. Shame on them. A clear case of negligence on their part. 1000 bucks could have bought a diagnosis.

This is a jump though. You can claim that but I have not seen anything that would suggest that there was negligence or not from them. Never underestimate the legal systems ability to royally screw things up. We have a case in my workplace going on now where one of my coworkers mother is mentally ill and he cannot get her involuntarily confined because they keep saying she is not a danger. In the last incident, she was struck by a car running across the street naked screaming and flailing her hands around. She was deemed incompetent for the medical care that was required or she would have died after refusing care but was then deemed competent after release. Being the latest in a number of incidences, there is no conceivable way that this should continue but it does and there is nothing that the family can do about it. That may be the case here or it may not. I don't know and have not seen anything to suggest one way or the other.

First off......if you look at the 3 pictures of Laughtner, you'd see a change from a long haired kid with a normal look on his face, to a short haired dude, still with a normal look on his face to a grinning lunatic who shaved his eyebrows off.

Anyone who looked at those pictures could see the progression of crazy.

As far as having 30 round magazines? Like I said before, provide ANY kind of justification for carrying that amount of ammo in 1 gun, besides killing people, or in a war zone.

There is none.

Interestingly enough, an AK-47 only carries 35 rounds. Why did Laughtner have to have almost as much ammo in his handgun as terrorists do in their automatic weapons.

No. You shouldn't regulate guns any more than you have to, but outside police and military applications, I think that 10-15 rounds/gun is more than enough.

No, the reason that I can purchase a high cap magazine is because my rights and abilities are not subject to what you THINK I need nor should they be. I don't need a reason to want a high capacity magazine nor should I need to furnish a reason to you to purchase one. If you want to limit the sale of them then YOU need a DAMN good reason to and I do not believe that a single shooting by a mentally ill individual is sufficient reason to limit the sale of anything. There is not a huge epidemic of people killing others because of legally purchased high capacity magazines. Again, he could have simply went with an M16 if you prefer and had a 30 round clip for that. You are not going to limit or save anything with asinine laws like that.

I'm surprised no one connected the dots of Loughner's drug abuse to his mental state
Smoking marijuana ups risk of schizophrenia: study | Reuters

Could legalizing marijuana increase mass murders or "assassinations" ?

How about drug tests before buying guns or ammo?

How about mandatory drug tests period to stay out of "therapy"?

I'm waiting for Palin to start hammering the Left on Loughner's mental status viz drug use AS VERIFIED BY THE ABOVE STUDY!!

Guns don't kill people, people on drugs kill people!!

Marijuana is NOT a drug, it is a plant. And no one has wanted to 'kill' because of using Marijuana. It calms people more than anything. In fact, marijuana has been proven to improve mental health. Though you will not see the government admitting this because it would mean they were wrong and they will never admit to being wrong.

Please do some research before you go and say something you know nothing about.

Sorry but that is a dumb statement. MJ is a drug and whether or not you want to admit it there are negative side effects of it. I have seen many first hand. However, caffeine is also a drug that has many bad side effects as well. Hell, candy bars have negative affects also. Just because it is a drug and has side affects does not mean that it should be illegal though. So, point taken.

I am interested in the connection between mental illness and drugs though. MJ could very well be the catalyst that sets off someone that is prone to mental illness but that is for another topic and has nothing to do with this thread.

1 out of 4 people suffer from a diagnosable mental illness in their young years - check NAMI or NIMH for the studies. I can't post links here yet.

Also, a little off topic but I can't resist..
I hate this type of statement because it covers up one of the MAJOR problems that we have with mental illness today and that is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of children that are diagnosed with mental illnesses that don't actually have one. Every few years it's another damn illness that absolutely everyone has to have whenever a child's parents can't figure out how to care for their children. Currently it is downs syndrome. A few years back it was ADHD and when I was a child it was ADD. It is insane and taking resources and attention away from those that are really in need of true help[ and actually have true disorders. There is real need for the truly mentally ill but there is a huge influx and strain on the resources from people that are not in need of assistance but are diagnosed because some doctor needs a buck or a child will not fit into the given mold that is required.

 

[chanel]

According to everything I've read, he was not in the public mental health system. If he was seeing a private doctor, then of course I would not blame the family. I realize their help could only go so far. But if they IGNORED his obvious symptoms, then they need to live with that shame for the rest of their lives. He was sick for a long time.

 

[SnagNasty]

I hate this type of statement because it covers up one of the MAJOR problems that we have with mental illness today and that is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of children that are diagnosed with mental illnesses that don't actually have one. Every few years it's another damn illness that absolutely everyone has to have whenever a child's parents can't figure out how to care for their children. Currently it is downs syndrome. A few years back it was ADHD and when I was a child it was ADD. It is insane and taking resources and attention away from those that are really in need of true help[ and actually have true disorders. There is real need for the truly mentally ill but there is a huge influx and strain on the resources from people that are not in need of assistance but are diagnosed because some doctor needs a buck or a child will not fit into the given mold that is required.

I just don't understand this statement. I have not found a doctor who just wants to make a buck off a MI diaganosis. Do you have any stats on this? Links? Anything on kids being over diaganosed in regards to mental illness?


The consequences of undiaganosed MI are real. Due to the frontal lobe development years falling into the teen and young adulthood years, it is real. Severe depression as well as bi-polar, or schizophrenia can cause pyschotic episodes. The science behind proper diaganosis is getting very interesting these days and is based on science.

There is truly a strain on Mental Health resources not due to abuse, but to underfunding and budget cuts. Mental Health is usually the first thing to get cut.

Don't kid yourself, Mental Illness is real and happens way more than we like to think. It happenend to us. Attend a NAMI meeting sometime and listen to the stories. Hell, just go to nami.org and view the forums. Lots of people are sufferering.

 

[SnagNasty]

According to everything I've read, he was not in the public mental health system. If he was seeing a private doctor, then of course I would not blame the family. I realize their help could only go so far. But if they IGNORED his obvious symptoms, then they need to live with that shame for the rest of their lives. He was sick for a long time.

and again it is not clear they ignored his symptoms. If they did, I would be more concerned with why they ignored his symptoms. I would expect embarrassment and stigma to be likely options. But this is all pure speculation on my part.

 

[JFK_USA]

Londoner nailed it.

We need increase gun control aimed at ammunition and increased mental health spending.

And majuana smoking doesn't make someone a killer. Shit I would say 20% of the population has smoked weed in the past week and not any one of them has gone on a mass murder rage. But typical fear mongering from the right.

 

[chanel]

According to everything I've read, he was not in the public mental health system. If he was seeing a private doctor, then of course I would not blame the family. I realize their help could only go so far. But if they IGNORED his obvious symptoms, then they need to live with that shame for the rest of their lives. He was sick for a long time.

and again it is not clear they ignored his symptoms. If they did, I would be more concerned with why they ignored his symptoms. I would expect embarrassment and stigma to be likely options. But this is all pure speculation on my part.

Yes it is but if he had seen a doctor after his multiple arrests and the colleges letter regarding his expulsion, I would think that would have come out by now.

There is a "stigma" to AIDs and STDs as well. But if your kid is dying or his dick is about to fall off, you call a doctor. This was not the colleges "neglect" nor society's; it was there's. They allowed him to play with a fucking gun. That's worse than handing a set of keys to a drunk driver.

 

[FA_Q2]

I hate this type of statement because it covers up one of the MAJOR problems that we have with mental illness today and that is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of children that are diagnosed with mental illnesses that don't actually have one. Every few years it's another damn illness that absolutely everyone has to have whenever a child's parents can't figure out how to care for their children. Currently it is downs syndrome. A few years back it was ADHD and when I was a child it was ADD. It is insane and taking resources and attention away from those that are really in need of true help[ and actually have true disorders. There is real need for the truly mentally ill but there is a huge influx and strain on the resources from people that are not in need of assistance but are diagnosed because some doctor needs a buck or a child will not fit into the given mold that is required.

I just don't understand this statement. I have not found a doctor who just wants to make a buck off a MI diaganosis. Do you have any stats on this? Links? Anything on kids being over diaganosed in regards to mental illness?


The consequences of undiaganosed MI are real. Due to the frontal lobe development years falling into the teen and young adulthood years, it is real. Severe depression as well as bi-polar, or schizophrenia can cause pyschotic episodes. The science behind proper diaganosis is getting very interesting these days and is based on science.

There is truly a strain on Mental Health resources not due to abuse, but to underfunding and budget cuts. Mental Health is usually the first thing to get cut.

Don't kid yourself, Mental Illness is real and happens way more than we like to think. It happenend to us. Attend a NAMI meeting sometime and listen to the stories. Hell, just go to nami.org and view the forums. Lots of people are sufferering.

The statistics would likely be in the increased diagnosis of such illnesses before and after the ground swells but other than that no one would have those as once you are diagnosed that's it. Mostly I see it in the world around me. I have watched 3 children diagnosed with mental disorders and my brother was diagnosed with ADD and not one of them was truly ill. The first was a very young child that was enrolled into a special needs class because of mental development issues. The boy was not passing a toy from one hand to another and was well beyond the point that such an action was expected. After some in home consultations and deeper evaluations the doctors wanted the child enrolled into a program that would have followed the child for many years. The fact of the matter was that he was far ahead of other children in several arias, just not this one but the people involved needed the child to fit into a set frame. Not all people are the same. My brother is very active and cannot sit still. He is quite intelligent but has some issues that he needs to deal with. It is not a case of ADD though, that is a cop out and not addressing the real problem. We avoided any further interaction with the councilors on him because their suggestions were rather insane and what they wanted to do with him was plain wrong. In the end, it turns out that all he needed was some physical activity after school and a change in teaches. The one he was with was outright abusive - a fact the school covered up and defended but that is for another thread at another time. There were another two children that we watched in our home that were diagnosed with some other mental disorder that I cannot remember but the results were trying to place them in special classes after they started school. these children did not need this but rather simply needed more work with the parents and more involvement. The issues that they were having were likely due to the fact the father was army (aka: deployed out of the home for 2 out of 3 years) and the mother was catering to the child's whims. After a few short months with us she had moved incredibly far in her speech and capabilities. Another I can think of was a girlfriend that I had back in high school. I would constantly see her excelling in math and English but she was in remedial classes because of an ADD diagnosis when she was a child. She once told me that she remained in the classes even though se was perfectly capable of doing my work because they were easier. EASIER! The system had told her that she was not capable and she made it so. You see this a lot with disabled people as well. We are always focusing on what they cannot do instead of what they can.

The point is, 4 children that I have personally known and an ex girlfriend that were diagnosed with mental disorders and NONE of them were truly in need of any special attention outside of the family. Most of these people simply had a personality quark (bored easily, hyper ect) that is not an illness but a part of who they are. I am not degrading those that are truly mentally ill, quite the contrary. I am saying that claiming everyone is mentally ill IS degrading the issue as a whole. 1 in 4 children are not in need of help. I can look around and see that for myself.

on the other hand, those that are truly mentally ill seem to slip through the cracks. This individual that shot the congresswomen is one example as is my coworkers mother. For that matter, my own mother is likely mentally ill and she has never been diagnosed with anything. I am aghast at how so many people that need help go unnoticed while we are diagnosing every damn kid that has an issue listening to his teacher as having a mental issue.

In the end, we need to realize that people are different and that those differences are not mental problems. We need to devote those resources that are most needed to those that actually need them instead of going into hysteria about everyone.

 

[FA_Q2]

According to everything I've read, he was not in the public mental health system. If he was seeing a private doctor, then of course I would not blame the family. I realize their help could only go so far. But if they IGNORED his obvious symptoms, then they need to live with that shame for the rest of their lives. He was sick for a long time.

and again it is not clear they ignored his symptoms. If they did, I would be more concerned with why they ignored his symptoms. I would expect embarrassment and stigma to be likely options. But this is all pure speculation on my part.

Yes it is but if he had seen a doctor after his multiple arrests and the colleges letter regarding his expulsion, I would think that would have come out by now.

There is a "stigma" to AIDs and STDs as well. But if your kid is dying or his dick is about to fall off, you call a doctor. This was not the colleges "neglect" nor society's; it was there's. They allowed him to play with a fucking gun. That's worse than handing a set of keys to a drunk driver.

that was the point. If he is over 18 and did not want to see a doctor there is NOTHING you can do about it. You have to PROVE mental illness (without a doctor) AND self endangerment (which can't be done till AFTER he has done something) before you can get a judge to take away his rights and force him to see a doctor. It is NOT easy.

 

[chanel]

Then you kick him out of the house.

My son is 20 and perfectly sane. But if he bought a gun, he'd be living elsewhere. My house; my rules. That's what good parents say.

Maybe there's some sob story about how they tried to get him help, blah, blah, blah, but I highly doubt it.

 

[Ravi]

Then you kick him out of the house.

My son is 20 and perfectly sane. But if he bought a gun, he'd be living elsewhere. My house; my rules. That's what good parents say.

Maybe there's some sob story about how they tried to get him help, blah, blah, blah, but I highly doubt it.

What if he didn't tell you that he bought a gun?

 

[SnagNasty]

I think most of us can agree that the public schools are terrible at handling kids on either side of the grade spectrum and it's often the kids that "don't fit the mold" fall thru the cracks.

What you need to understand is many families try to get their loved ones help but are denied. It is not because mental health resources are too busy taking care of frivolous problems, it's because there is a shortage of beds. To get into a mental hospital, you have to at least present a danger to yourself or others. Even then you may not get a bed. My child slept on the floor during his last stay. His room mates were ill, very ill. They were not there because they were simply mis-diagnosed.

So even though I believe that you know 4 kids that were mis-diagnosed via the school system, it does not dismiss the seriousness of the illness nor practising methods for catching it early.

Really, I encourage you to attend a local NAMI meeting. It is heart breaking to find out what little control you have over your kid when they are 17 and suffering. Mental illness is real and it does happen to our kids.