Green Energy

[krotchdog]

Chris, why would you assume I lied. I feel bad for you. I feel bad for myself because its the idiots who listen to the television and believe what is said. First, only a moron would call someone a liar without thinking about what is said.

People think because the wind blows its clean, and it is, but what is that wind blowing against. First it hinds the blades of the turbine, still clean right, but what are those blades made of? Fiberglass, do you realize the toxic fumes that are produced during the production of Fiberglass. Tons of chemicals are needed and and a whole shit load of electricity, so much electricity that to make fiberglass you need a source capable of producing more electricity than a windmill farm produces. So to produce the fiberglass to produce the windmill you need power, currently that is coming from COAL. Do you understand the pollution that a coal plant produces. Its a waste of that power to use it to produce windmills for a windmill cannot reproduce itself, the power it generates is to weak. Further windmills do have a limited life, than the get thrown away as garbage, currently I know no process that recycles fiberglass so now you have created the toxic fumes from fiberglass production, you have created the toxic waste from burning coal. Waste from coal converted to electricity is radioactive, stuff like Cobalt 60, Cesium, and a whole bunch of other unregulated pollutants released into the air.

Windmills are anything but clean or renewable.

Fiberglass production, ever look into the details of that, Chris has not, Chris's knee-jerk reaction is to call anyone who tells Chris something a liar. Currently fiberglass demand exceed supply, meaning price goes up, raising the cost of your electricity, how fat is your wallet. Do you live rich, if not you wont because now you will pay more for a basic need because people like Chris do not think, they just call people liars if they dont agree. Fiberglass production requires PROPENE, that only comes from oil. Propene demand exceeds supply so we must produce and refine more oil so that we can have more PROPENE so we can make more windmills.

Windmills thus are less renewable than oil and pollute as much oil because you cant make a windmill without making oil.

What about Boron, is that needed. Or Titanium, Nickel, Copper, Plastic, Lead, what does it take to produce these basic products needed in the industry that is needed to produce windmills.

Here is a news flash, you just dont go to the hardware store and buy a windmill, they dont come from outer space nor do they grow on trees.

So Chris, if you like I can educate you much more when I have time and I dont mind but if you dismiss people as a liar merely because they present you with an idea that is contrary to your opinion than you can suffer the consequences, in this case you will pay a fortune in electricity and be enslaved to the government that has passed the regulations and laws that enslave you to windmills and the power behind windmills, the power being government supporting CORPORATIONS.

Geothermal is nasty dirty polluting resource wasting energy.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That's pretty cool, isn't it?

The India car company Tata is investing in that.

I think they are going to call the car, Bodacious.

They are quite cool. They are also probably the reason why the gas companies are raising their prices now, one last hurrah because once 2010 comes; gasoline may become in many aspects extinct for motor vehicles.

Which is good. I personally can't wait to get one of those eventually.

An Air-Powered Car by 2009? Don’t Hold Your Breath - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

 

[PoliticalChic]

It wouldn't even cost $30k for the average home. As far as people losing their job because of new technology go read some Ayn Rand.... it's about the only good point she makes. You can't stand in the way of progress just because of potential job loss.

As far as renewable energy, it only makes sense. I've done the math myself, a roof top wind turbine installed will set me back about $12000. That cost is recovered in 4-5 years because I wont have an electric bill anymore. It's an investment. After the recovery time I'm ahead every month. Even as energy cost inflates in the future, I will be saving money.

So, your electric bill is about $3000/ year?

And what happens when that 90 mph wind rips the turbine and roof off the house?

And what is the lifetime of the turbine?

Get back to me after you try it.

Yea around that. I have a lot of extras that consume power like running a hot tub throughout the winter, and AC in the summer... The cost is part of what makes going off the grid a good option for my home, plus I live on a lake that gets a strong wind virtually every day of the year.

Turbines are equipped with a break for exactly the type of wind gusts you're referring too, it's no more vulnerable than a tree, or satellite dish, or flag pole... besides that the one cost to this "free" energy is additional home owners insurance. Adding a line to your policy for an extra $15-20k in coverage is only a couple bucks a month.

Turbines are designed to last 20-30 years. As with any other investment, you make your profit when you buy... which is why I'm spending considerable time learning and shopping around. I want this to be profitable for my family, and to be an asset should I ever want to sell the house.

That is a monster electric bill! Is you stove and heating also electric?

Upstate- can you use wood-burning?

Just seems to me that nature defeats "the best laid plans." is there a history for those turbines? I s there a gvt rebate?

For me, living in the Peoples Republic of NYC, my electic is expensive, but a fraction of yours, and I'm afraid of the vibrations removing my roof.

BTW, are you familiar with Geoger Friedman, of Stratfor? In his new book, he states that
within 50 years the USA will be to electric power what Saudi Arabia is to oil. He bases this on the premise that we will have collectors in space that will convert solar energy to microwaves which can be sent back to earth.

Who knows.

 

[PoliticalChic]

That's pretty cool, isn't it?

The India car company Tata is investing in that.

I think they are going to call the car, Bodacious.

They are quite cool. They are also probably the reason why the gas companies are raising their prices now, one last hurrah because once 2010 comes; gasoline may become in many aspects extinct for motor vehicles.

Which is good. I personally can't wait to get one of those eventually.

An Air-Powered Car by 2009? Don’t Hold Your Breath - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

When I see the discussion between those two guys, that you quote above, I can't help but think of Lenny and George, in Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men," where Lenny says

"tell me about the rabbits, George."

 

[krotchdog]

They are quite cool. They are also probably the reason why the gas companies are raising their prices now, one last hurrah because once 2010 comes; gasoline may become in many aspects extinct for motor vehicles.

If gas is not used in cars, what will you do with it. A certain percentage of a barrel of oil will always be gas, its not just made, its seperated out of oil due according to its specific gravity. We will still need Propene to produce fiberglass to produce windmills so will still need oil, gasoline and diesel will now become toxic waste and the only safe thing you can do with this type of waste is burn it. Oil is here for a long time. The only thing we can do is go 100% nuke for electricity, develop our resources as best we can, use the money of the growing economy that will result, use the money for research.

To think we can just quit using gas and oil by-products is not realistic. Maybe in the future but in the future technology will advance so that oil produces even less pollution.

I dont see us running out. Even the term in the news is "peak oil production". That is kind of revealing, what do they mean, its impossible to produce more. Brazil is finding new oil fields. The USA is not producing in known fields. Peak production simply means we can produce as much as we need for the foreseeable future.

 

[Gunny]

Chris, why would you assume I lied. I feel bad for you. I feel bad for myself because its the idiots who listen to the television and believe what is said. First, only a moron would call someone a liar without thinking about what is said.

People think because the wind blows its clean, and it is, but what is that wind blowing against. First it hinds the blades of the turbine, still clean right, but what are those blades made of? Fiberglass, do you realize the toxic fumes that are produced during the production of Fiberglass. Tons of chemicals are needed and and a whole shit load of electricity, so much electricity that to make fiberglass you need a source capable of producing more electricity than a windmill farm produces. So to produce the fiberglass to produce the windmill you need power, currently that is coming from COAL. Do you understand the pollution that a coal plant produces. Its a waste of that power to use it to produce windmills for a windmill cannot reproduce itself, the power it generates is to weak. Further windmills do have a limited life, than the get thrown away as garbage, currently I know no process that recycles fiberglass so now you have created the toxic fumes from fiberglass production, you have created the toxic waste from burning coal. Waste from coal converted to electricity is radioactive, stuff like Cobalt 60, Cesium, and a whole bunch of other unregulated pollutants released into the air.

Windmills are anything but clean or renewable.

Fiberglass production, ever look into the details of that, Chris has not, Chris's knee-jerk reaction is to call anyone who tells Chris something a liar. Currently fiberglass demand exceed supply, meaning price goes up, raising the cost of your electricity, how fat is your wallet. Do you live rich, if not you wont because now you will pay more for a basic need because people like Chris do not think, they just call people liars if they dont agree. Fiberglass production requires PROPENE, that only comes from oil. Propene demand exceeds supply so we must produce and refine more oil so that we can have more PROPENE so we can make more windmills.

Windmills thus are less renewable than oil and pollute as much oil because you cant make a windmill without making oil.

What about Boron, is that needed. Or Titanium, Nickel, Copper, Plastic, Lead, what does it take to produce these basic products needed in the industry that is needed to produce windmills.

Here is a news flash, you just dont go to the hardware store and buy a windmill, they dont come from outer space nor do they grow on trees.

So Chris, if you like I can educate you much more when I have time and I dont mind but if you dismiss people as a liar merely because they present you with an idea that is contrary to your opinion than you can suffer the consequences, in this case you will pay a fortune in electricity and be enslaved to the government that has passed the regulations and laws that enslave you to windmills and the power behind windmills, the power being government supporting CORPORATIONS.

Geothermal is nasty dirty polluting resource wasting energy.

Well, you just described Chris. He wants to be a slave just so long as he's provided for cradle to grave. He believes what he's sold and no amount of facts will change his mind. He'll just call you a liar, quit the thread, and go start a new one.

 

[Seraega]

So, your electric bill is about $3000/ year?

And what happens when that 90 mph wind rips the turbine and roof off the house?

And what is the lifetime of the turbine?

Get back to me after you try it.

Yea around that. I have a lot of extras that consume power like running a hot tub throughout the winter, and AC in the summer... The cost is part of what makes going off the grid a good option for my home, plus I live on a lake that gets a strong wind virtually every day of the year.

Turbines are equipped with a break for exactly the type of wind gusts you're referring too, it's no more vulnerable than a tree, or satellite dish, or flag pole... besides that the one cost to this "free" energy is additional home owners insurance. Adding a line to your policy for an extra $15-20k in coverage is only a couple bucks a month.

Turbines are designed to last 20-30 years. As with any other investment, you make your profit when you buy... which is why I'm spending considerable time learning and shopping around. I want this to be profitable for my family, and to be an asset should I ever want to sell the house.

That is a monster electric bill! Is you stove and heating also electric?

Upstate- can you use wood-burning?

Just seems to me that nature defeats "the best laid plans." is there a history for those turbines? I s there a gvt rebate?

For me, living in the Peoples Republic of NYC, my electic is expensive, but a fraction of yours, and I'm afraid of the vibrations removing my roof.

BTW, are you familiar with Geoger Friedman, of Stratfor? In his new book, he states that
within 50 years the USA will be to electric power what Saudi Arabia is to oil. He bases this on the premise that we will have collectors in space that will convert solar energy to microwaves which can be sent back to earth.

Who knows.

It's not that high of a bill. I've lived here my whole life and can attest that for this area it's normal. The worst part is that I live within 5 miles of 3 nuke plants, and we get ZERO of the energy. It all goes downstate. We get all the risk of radiation if something goes wrong... they get all the cheap power.

I've not read his book, but if we get wind power setup throughout the midwest we'll be sitting pretty well into the future. The difference between wind/solar and carbon based energy sources is that once you pay the start up costs it's essentially free forever, and doesn't run out. Some minor maintenance costs are far better than having to find a new place to drill every couple years.

That's excluding the environmental factors....

 

[catzmeow]

You don't seem to realize that to convert to these alternative forms, TRILLIONS are needed:
"If America wants a green energy economy, it is going to have to spend. And spend. And spend like never before. President Obama’s plan to designate $15 billion a year over 10 years will barely scratch the surface of what is needed. If America wants an energy revolution, taxpayers are going to have to pay and pay and pay, because trillions of dollars’ worth of energy infrastructure in America will need to be phased out and replaced. "

Actually, part of it is simply raising awareness on the part of consumers. Many power companies around the U.S. offer incentives to customers to use sustainable power sources, such as solar water heaters, because it is less expensive to pay inventives than to build the infrastructure required to keep pace with rising consumer demand.

Solar panels are an expensive initial investment. However, these panels last for about 40 years. Most consumers can pay them off with a low-interest energy efficient loan within ten. That means 30 YEARS OF FREE POWER.

Solar is an extremely viable option for many Americans, if they knew more about it. The use of solar keeps increasing, as does the technology every year.

Only a short-sighted idiot wouldn't want us to decrease our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels.

I seriously cannot imagine why the conservatives aren't all over this shit.

 

[editec]

And one source that many forget about:

Cars that run on Compressed Air.

That's not a power source, that's a storage system for power. One actually LOSES power in the process.

As is the case with hydrogen, FYI.

 

[editec]

Nuclear power is cheap as long as the power plants get SUBSIDIES from the government.

The moment they have to pay their OWN INSURANCE, they are out of business because no insurance company in the world is willing to take the risk of insuring one.

Now if nucelar power is so safe, what are the insurance companies afraid of?

Making a lot of money taking no risk?

I don't think so, folks.

 

[editec]

Krotch you so don't know what you're talking about.

Do you really imagine that the carbon footprint of a turbine blade exceeds the amount of energy a modern windmill produces?

Learn some math dude.

 

[catzmeow]

Krotch you so don't know what you're talking about.

Do you really imagine that the carbon footprint of a turbine blade exceeds the amount of energy a modern windmill produces?

Learn some math dude.

Stop it, Eddy. He's perfectly happy with his head down in that hole.

 

[auditor0007]

We have a wind corridor that runs from Texas to the Canadian border. We have a solar corridor in the American Southwest. Every new house in America should have fexible solar panels. We have the technology. It could be done very easily.

What if the $800 billion we wasted in Iraq had been spent on clean energy? We would be well on our way to American energy independence.

Wind farm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chris, your left wing socialist nut buddies would have all your answers to getting off foriegn oil in the courts for years to come. You name it, their against it, and have highly paid lobbists to do their work. Also, you have your left wing socialist nut buddies that are judges to make sure it doesn't happen. Chris, and rockhead, you want liberalism to run America? Well here you are, welcome to the politics that you cherish.
What we do need to do is start opening up areas to drill for oil. We need to get rid of the regulations that say no more refineries. We have enough here to make ourselves energy independent. That and clean coal. One thing to remember, we're going to need oil for a very long, long time, Chris. That is a fact, but your ultra liberal buddies say no. These are the people you worship Chris. By the way Chris, remember the "what if?" It's kinda like "What if my Grandmother had balls." Get rid of "what if" Chris, that's juvenile.

Blah, blah, blah, liberal bad, let's drill, ect.....

What we need to do is provide tax advantages for green energy.

Green energy is made in America. Wind, solar, conservation, etc...are all American.

I'm all for wind and solar energy, and one day, that will be our main source. But it's not likely to work the way you are talking about. Great, lets build huge wind and solar plants in the middle of the country and in the Southwest. How will that help those in the Northeast? You can't transport that energy. Did you not realize that?

To keep it efficient, you have to use it close to the source of production. Secondly, we have no current way of storing energy which will be an absolute necessity if we are to rely on wind and solar. You can't make the sun shine or the wind blow just because it's 105 degrees outside and everyone is using they're AC. At the same time, you can't overproduce and flood the grid with electricity unless you are planning on blowing the entire grid. This is the reason the Danes have cut back on their wind production. It is only good for around 20% of their needs. After that point, it becomes too unreliable to provide the energy when needed.

 

[krotchdog]

Yes I do, its called massive amounts of fiberglass production, fiberglass production creates millions of tons of toxic waste. Look at Chinise fiberglass production.mat product is produced on a single high-speed fiberglass

mat line. ... cost of a batch is of raw materials is

typically about $60 per ton (“Advanced Heating .... This

estimate of about 16000000 kWh per year for oxygen plant

boron carbide requires 9.4 Mwh per ton

http://www.etimaden.gov.tr/common/d...ry/Boron Chemicals Prefeasibility Summary.pdf

This is a little crude, real crude but you should get the idea that I am putting together a more concise post.

I expect you guys to get pissed when what you were taught to think for all these years are challenged. You got to get over it. My career is in Energy so I know what I am talking about. There is no way you can power the glass furnace with wind power, further much of the process uses LP. I believe electrial usage is small but in comparison.

The EPRI report I site is old and it refers to total usage of polymer fiber composites (fiberglass).

You guys really are just posting the opinion that this sounds great without thinking it through. I got tons of information I must sort through and organize.

Just do a bit of googling on polymer fiber kwh and you will then get the idea of how huge this industry is. They move the componets by ship, you think you can build a ship with a windmill.

They need boron, are boron mines run by a windmill.

How about that glass furnace operating at 1700 degrees, you think your windmill is going to power that. Not a chance.

Than at the end of its life you throw it away 100.000,000 tons of fiberglass waste from all those old windmills.

Right now I am just talking one part, the fiberglass, care to speculate at the other materials involved. This is about the rich getting richer, you think the rich give a shit about green, where are all those evil conservative businessmen, why are they not up in arms, actually most capitalist in charge of big business are democrats, got to remember the democrats are the actual filthy rich, so why are they not screaming.

You show me one place they use green energy to make the raw materials.

do a search on fiberglass demand, boron demand, propene demand (which only comes from oil) and you will see demand skyrocketing, whatch the commodities market for the essential raw materials.

You tell me you thought about all of this.

ITS YOU THAT HAS HIS HEAD IN A HOLE.

Tell me you researched all of this or even considered it.

Lets talk about batteries, how many do you throw away a year, they use tons of nickel, where will we get all that nickel, no problem, lets have a war where there is the most nickel in the world, already did that, ITS KOSOVO, THNAKS MR CLINTON.

Any how, its foolish for me to point this all out because my career will benifit from this, I got me a high paying job in the energy sector, I wont like the extra high electric bills but I will make up for it with all the overtime and a huge bonus as my company profits from this.

Check your wallet, think you got enough money, you aint goint to make more, you will spend more because all the industry is overseas, the profit will be made overseas and you guys will foot the bill.

Seriously, I got to thank you, You pay for my nice new shiny 4x4 V8 four door full size truck.

I am the one laughing, all the way to the bank.

Sure I am against them for the simple reason that I want to raise my family in the USA, but the more energy needed the better.

I am currently working in Madrid for the largest Spanish energy service company, we have people from China with us, Bulgaria, Slovania, that is where the growth is.

Windmills cannot supply industry so you will see more job loss, they can power your house, with a battery that gets dumped as toxic trash, in your backyard, think about all those batteries you buy a year now imagine all the new batteries we will need on a scale that makes the energizer bunny look like a toy.

Yep, you guys thought it through and I got my head in hole.

ha, ha.

 

[krotchdog]

editic, so how much is that subsidy, which plants are dangerous. Last time I checked we have had no problems in this century with nukes, hell, THREE MILE ISLAND IS STILL RUNNING.

Catzmeow

these panels last for about 40 years

And then you throw them in a landfill, a land fill that will be 500 miles long. The biggest solar plant in the world will be built in arizona, its 3 miles long, it will take a 100 miles of solar panels to equal the Palo Verde Nuclear Power plant. We have a 100 nuclear plants in the USA, think solar panels from one side of america to the next. I actually have this written out better but my shift is almost over and I got to go.

What about the pollution from solar cell production, 100,000,000 tons. Real green, real cost effective.

Hey, guess whos in Obama's cabinet, who are his advisors, I will did it up, I got my info a bit scattered but its all people from the richest companies in the world.

Here is bit of information about solar panel pollution, thanks catzmeow, your green good feeling is poisoning the kittens.

In March 2008, the Washington Post reported that at least one plant in China’s Henan province is regularly dumping extremely toxic silicon tetrachloride (a corrosive and toxic waste product of polysilicon manufacturing) on nearby farmland. [...] Silicon tetrachloride makes the soil too acidic for plants, causes severe irritation to living tissues, and is highly toxic when ingested of inhaled.

Solar cell production linked to toxic waste
Tech industry watchdog calls for responsible recycling from vendors
Written by AARON BRUNER
Published January 22, 2009
Solar energy tantalizes most green-friendly consumers as an easy way to cut energy costs and consumption of fossil fuels, but a new report suggests the industry isn't as clean as some thought.

Released last week by green technology watchdog Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition, the report details the toxic nature of photovoltaic cell production and proposes that solar vendors take back spent panels for clean recycling.

Over the past five years, the number of solar cells produced globally has increased sevenfold, according to the report, while in 2007 alone the industry grew by 62 percent, earning $17.2 billion in global revenues. Increased production allows a higher potential for toxic waste, if handled improperly.

Many materials used to produce photovoltaic (PV) panels, primarily silicon, are similar to those of the microelectronics industry and have the potential to create a wave of electronic waste after approximately 20 to 25 years of use, the coalition claims.

Other toxic PV cell components abound - lead, brominated flame retardants, cadmium and chromium - which require the safe recycling of small amounts of valuable but potentially dangerous material.

Particularly dangerous is the manufacturing of crystalline silicon PV cells from polysilicon feedstock (highly refined silicon), which produces the toxic waste product silicon tetrachloride.

When released into the environment, silicon tetrachloride acidifies soil so it is inhospitable for effective plant growth, causes severe irritation to living tissues and is highly toxic when ingested or inhaled.

With foresight to the potential risks of a growing solar industry, SVTC hopes that mistakes of the microelectronics industry will not be repeated.

"The electronics industry's lack of environmental planning and oversight resulted in widespread toxic chemical pollution that caused death and injury to workers and people living in nearby communities," the report said.

Though much of the toxic polysilicon manufacturing for PV cells and electronics takes place outside the U.S., American technology producers generated more than 2.6 million tons of electronic waste in 2005, according to EPA estimates.

 

[xotoxi]

Last time I checked we have had no problems in this century with nukes, hell, THREE MILE ISLAND IS STILL RUNNING...it will take a 100 miles of solar panels to equal the Palo Verde Nuclear Power plant.

What do you plan to do with the spent nuclear rods?

 

[catzmeow]

And then you throw them in a landfill, a land fill that will be 500 miles long. The biggest solar plant in the world will be built in arizona, its 3 miles long, it will take a 100 miles of solar panels to equal the Palo Verde Nuclear Power plant.

Released last week by green technology watchdog Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition, the report details the toxic nature of photovoltaic cell production and proposes that solar vendors take back spent panels for clean recycling.

I know this is going to shock you, but green power proponents are also RABID RECYCLERS. You should see my house and my recycling bins. We throw away very little trash. If it is compostable, it's composted. If it's recyclable, it's recycled. We don't get a paper newspaper. We don't drink bottled water. We recycle all plastics, paper, glass, and metal.

Welcome to the future.

The silicone that is being used today to produce solar cells should be reused to produce solar cells in the future.

Why is this so hard for you?

 

[stekim]

The fact people throw out materials that can be recycled or improperly handle toxic materials is a separate issue from whether green energy is good and/or viable.

 

[catzmeow]

The fact people throw out materials that can be recycled or improperly handle toxic materials is a separate issue from whether green energy is good and/or viable.

Are you saying that the fact that China doesn't really impose enviromental controls on ANY of their manufacturing processes is not a commentary on solar power?

Shocking.

 

[catzmeow]

What do you plan to do with the spent nuclear rods?

He's going to create a new master race of glow in the dark beings with six eyes, tails and flippers.