GOP Vows To Stay The Party of Obstruction!!!

[Gunny]

jesus, we are all adults here. We know how to read between the lines. We listen to talk radio and watch Cable tv. We are capable of interpreting all the winks and nods.

The GOP has a-l-w-a-y-s been anti medicare and anti Social Security.

The GOP has now stumbled on a way to scare the heck out of seniors and the disabled with cries of saving ss and medicare.

shameless

We'd all be better off without SS

I've crunched the numbers many times here and no matter how you slice it 45 years of saving 15% of your own money in a privately held account is always the best option.

What did America look like pre Social Security?

crunch your numbers. things almost always look better on paper than in r-e-a-l life. what is not in your numbers is human nature and the greed of the street.

you are selfish and thinking only of yourself. if more people were like you we'd be back swinging in the trees or at the least guarding the cave entrance.

It looked like people had to be responsible for themselves.

 

[Gunny]

Anyone else heard the latest Republican talking point? The 'Europeanization' of our healthcare system...

...lol.

And? Fuckwit? What's your point?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Anyone else heard the latest Republican talking point? The 'Europeanization' of our healthcare system...

...lol.

yeah. haven't you noticed all the Europeans breaking down the doors of America just to get into our best-in-the-world health care system?

 

[manu1959]

Anyone else heard the latest Republican talking point? The 'Europeanization' of our healthcare system...

...lol.

they are incorrect....in europe they don't make you buy health care.....where i lived it was free....granted 60% of my paycheck the government took ....but what the hell...

 

[manu1959]

Anyone else heard the latest Republican talking point? The 'Europeanization' of our healthcare system...

...lol.

yeah. haven't you noticed all the Europeans breaking down the doors of America just to get into our best-in-the-world health care system?

if you were diagnosed with cancer which european hospital / clinic would you go to for treatment....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Anyone else heard the latest Republican talking point? The 'Europeanization' of our healthcare system...

...lol.

yeah. haven't you noticed all the Europeans breaking down the doors of America just to get into our best-in-the-world health care system?

if you were diagnosed with cancer which european hospital / clinic would you go to for treatment....

I have no idea. But I have friends who are classical musicians (they tour europe) who got very ill in Europe. Said the health care was top notch and that the doctors they went to, were better than many here.

it's all anecdotal, but so would an answer containing a choice.

 

[manu1959]

yeah. haven't you noticed all the Europeans breaking down the doors of America just to get into our best-in-the-world health care system?

if you were diagnosed with cancer which european hospital / clinic would you go to for treatment....

I have no idea. But I have friends who are classical musicians (they tour europe) who got very ill in Europe. Said the health care was top notch and that the doctors they went to, were better than many here.

it's all anecdotal, but so would an answer containing a choice.

lived in denmark for a time....all very good....had a friend get severly hurt in finland....they took great care of him....granted you have to pay 60% of your income for the privledge....

many people travel to the us for cutting edge cancer treatments.....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

if you were diagnosed with cancer which european hospital / clinic would you go to for treatment....

I have no idea. But I have friends who are classical musicians (they tour europe) who got very ill in Europe. Said the health care was top notch and that the doctors they went to, were better than many here.

it's all anecdotal, but so would an answer containing a choice.

lived in denmark for a time....all very good....had a friend get severly hurt in finland....they took great care of him....granted you have to pay 60% of your income for the privledge....

many people travel to the us for cutting edge cancer treatments.....

all true, except the word 'many' I would say 'some' do.

with all the taxes, state federal, local and fees and such, I suppose we pay far more than 'most' people think.

But what the Europeans pay for health care isn't 60%9which nations?) ... 60% is the overall rate of taxation, no? It pasy for more than just health care, no?

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

I purposefully selected the next most expensive ...because we are soooo far ahead of them with costs, yet they get soooo much more for the dollar.

 

[Charles Stucker]

....granted you have to pay 60% of your income for the privledge....

many people travel to the us for cutting edge cancer treatments.....

Those are the two prime points.
60%% of your income means the hard working middle class ends up with nothing left over for savings, so they are dependent on government handouts when they can no longer work (because of mandatory retirement)
And the US has the best treatments for the most harrowing health problems.

 

[manu1959]

I have no idea. But I have friends who are classical musicians (they tour europe) who got very ill in Europe. Said the health care was top notch and that the doctors they went to, were better than many here.

it's all anecdotal, but so would an answer containing a choice.

lived in denmark for a time....all very good....had a friend get severly hurt in finland....they took great care of him....granted you have to pay 60% of your income for the privledge....

many people travel to the us for cutting edge cancer treatments.....

all true, except the word 'many' I would say 'some' do.

with all the taxes, state federal, local and fees and such, I suppose we pay far more than 'most' people think.

But what the Europeans pay for health care isn't 60%9which nations?) ... 60% is the overall rate of taxation, no? It pasy for more than just health care, no?

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

I purposefully selected the next most expensive ...because we are soooo far ahead of them with costs, yet they get soooo much more for the dollar.

their nations are the sizes of our states....most have very strict immigration policies and very high taxes.....comparisons are apples and oranges.....

if the us copied a country it should copy all of it not just one bit....because it functions as a whole.....you can't cherry pick programs because it won't work......

america is a pretty flawed place but that is what makes it america.......

we created social security but still need our own private retierment accounts.....we created medicare...but we still need to buy suplemental insurance....pick you government program....they all only do so much and create false hope .... at the end of the day it will still come down to you being able to take care of yourself.....

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Absolutely... unapologetically obstructing the Marxists and their ruining of America.

There, GOT IT?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

God lets hope so. Yikes!

 

[Rinata]

“It is time to chill out, Republicans,” Representative Bob Filner, Democrat of California, said. “Let this bill work. Let our constituents finally get health care.”

But there were no signs of a ceasefire. Senate Democrats said they would take up a budget reconciliation measure containing the final revisions to the health care overhaul shortly after Mr. Obama signs the main bill at the White House ceremony on Tuesday.

Far from sounding a conciliatory note, Senate Republicans said they would employ every procedural maneuver available to try to derail the reconciliation bill, or at least punch holes in it by knocking out key provisions.

Republicans Vow Repeal Effort Against Health Bill - NYTimes.com

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

You're absolutely right, Dante. I don't think they care about us ordinary Americans at all. I was thinking about how not even one Republican voted for the bill. It doesn't make sense. Yet every single person that voted no has great healthcare themselves, right?? Their families, too.

Congress' own healthcare benefits: membership has its privileges - Los Angeles Times

 

[Screaming Eagle]

“It is time to chill out, Republicans,” Representative Bob Filner, Democrat of California, said. “Let this bill work. Let our constituents finally get health care.”

But there were no signs of a ceasefire. Senate Democrats said they would take up a budget reconciliation measure containing the final revisions to the health care overhaul shortly after Mr. Obama signs the main bill at the White House ceremony on Tuesday.

Far from sounding a conciliatory note, Senate Republicans said they would employ every procedural maneuver available to try to derail the reconciliation bill, or at least punch holes in it by knocking out key provisions.

Republicans Vow Repeal Effort Against Health Bill - NYTimes.com

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

 

[Skull Pilot]

“It is time to chill out, Republicans,” Representative Bob Filner, Democrat of California, said. “Let this bill work. Let our constituents finally get health care.”

But there were no signs of a ceasefire. Senate Democrats said they would take up a budget reconciliation measure containing the final revisions to the health care overhaul shortly after Mr. Obama signs the main bill at the White House ceremony on Tuesday.

Far from sounding a conciliatory note, Senate Republicans said they would employ every procedural maneuver available to try to derail the reconciliation bill, or at least punch holes in it by knocking out key provisions.

Republicans Vow Repeal Effort Against Health Bill - NYTimes.com

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

It won't.

All that will happen since insurance companies must now cover everyone and cannot charge one person more than another, we will all pay more in premiums until they get so expensive, we'll all have no choice but to pay the tax penalty because it will ultimately be cheaper than insurance. Then we will all just be able to get insurance when we're really sick and drop it when we're better again.

Oh and BTW did you know that people making over 80 grand a year who work for themselves will be eligible for subsidies to offset their premiums?

Now who's going to pay for that?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

“It is time to chill out, Republicans,” Representative Bob Filner, Democrat of California, said. “Let this bill work. Let our constituents finally get health care.”

But there were no signs of a ceasefire. Senate Democrats said they would take up a budget reconciliation measure containing the final revisions to the health care overhaul shortly after Mr. Obama signs the main bill at the White House ceremony on Tuesday.

Far from sounding a conciliatory note, Senate Republicans said they would employ every procedural maneuver available to try to derail the reconciliation bill, or at least punch holes in it by knocking out key provisions.

Republicans Vow Repeal Effort Against Health Bill - NYTimes.com

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

You're absolutely right, Dante. I don't think they care about us ordinary Americans at all. I was thinking about how not even one Republican voted for the bill. It doesn't make sense. Yet every single person that voted no has great healthcare themselves, right?? Their families, too.

Congress' own healthcare benefits: membership has its privileges - Los Angeles Times

you mean the People's Tribunes in the GOP, have good health care and can't possibly understand what average Americans face on a daily basis?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

“It is time to chill out, Republicans,” Representative Bob Filner, Democrat of California, said. “Let this bill work. Let our constituents finally get health care.”

But there were no signs of a ceasefire. Senate Democrats said they would take up a budget reconciliation measure containing the final revisions to the health care overhaul shortly after Mr. Obama signs the main bill at the White House ceremony on Tuesday.

Far from sounding a conciliatory note, Senate Republicans said they would employ every procedural maneuver available to try to derail the reconciliation bill, or at least punch holes in it by knocking out key provisions.

Republicans Vow Repeal Effort Against Health Bill - NYTimes.com

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

From what I understand...(the following comes from a discussion about a CA reform proposal) Several studies—including two published by Harvard Medical School and the Health Affairs journal—put the number of bankruptcies due to medical causes at approximately 50 percent. The typical person filing for bankruptcy due to medical costs is about 40 years old, with some college education, middle-class or working-class, and a homeowner.

...it is my understanding that the way for-profit insurers now throw people off of plans---through raising rates exorbitantly, or finding reasons that a client violated a health plan agreement (preexisting conditions, behavior) in order to deny coverage...all as a way of pumping up profits and tamping down pay outs, will cease under any plan enacted.

The reasons why people go bankrupt is because they have to pay out of pocket expenses that are exorbitant and/or their rates become exorbitant. am I incorrect?

...the exact details have been debated ad nauseam, by others. I am sure you could find them if you are serious about adding why I am wrong or correct.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

From what I understand...(the following comes from a discussion about a CA reform proposal) Several studies—including two published by Harvard Medical School and the Health Affairs journal—put the number of bankruptcies due to medical causes at approximately 50 percent. The typical person filing for bankruptcy due to medical costs is about 40 years old, with some college education, middle-class or working-class, and a homeowner.

...it is my understanding that the way for-profit insurers now throw people off of plans---through raising rates exorbitantly, or finding reasons that a client violated a health plan agreement (preexisting conditions, behavior) in order to deny coverage...all as a way of pumping up profits and tamping down pay outs, will cease under any plan enacted.

The reasons why people go bankrupt is because they have to pay out of pocket expenses that are exorbitant and/or their rates become exorbitant. am I incorrect?

...the exact details have been debated ad nauseam, by others. I am sure you could find them if you are serious about adding why I am wrong or correct.

just because whatever percentage of bankruptcies included medical bills does not mean that medical bills were the sole reason for bankruptcy filings.

And really what's wrong with filing bankruptcy? it is completely legal.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

It appears the GOP will do anything they think they can just to hurt the Democrats, even if it means more Americans without health care and Americans going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I am starting to think the current GOP is so lustful of power, they would push American over a cliff just to get a taste of power back.

Can fascism be far behind if they ever win power back?

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

It won't.

All that will happen since insurance companies must now cover everyone and cannot charge one person more than another, we will all pay more in premiums until they get so expensive, we'll all have no choice but to pay the tax penalty because it will ultimately be cheaper than insurance. Then we will all just be able to get insurance when we're really sick and drop it when we're better again.

Oh and BTW did you know that people making over 80 grand a year who work for themselves will be eligible for subsidies to offset their premiums?

Now who's going to pay for that?

because certain people (cretins) think that way, I support any mandate that requires coverage.

and who is eligible for subsidies is all about the pool/rates people are projecting.

my solution? take profit out of health insurance.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

why not copy some of what others do? why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Skull Pilot]

How does this bill stop people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses?

It won't.

All that will happen since insurance companies must now cover everyone and cannot charge one person more than another, we will all pay more in premiums until they get so expensive, we'll all have no choice but to pay the tax penalty because it will ultimately be cheaper than insurance. Then we will all just be able to get insurance when we're really sick and drop it when we're better again.

Oh and BTW did you know that people making over 80 grand a year who work for themselves will be eligible for subsidies to offset their premiums?

Now who's going to pay for that?

because certain people (cretins) think that way, I support any mandate that requires coverage.

and who is eligible for subsidies is all about the pool/rates people are projecting.

my solution? take profit out of health insurance.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

why not copy some of what others do? why reinvent the wheel?

There is no profit in health insurance.

Most Insurance companies only return 2-4% profit annually. Do you really think that that measly amount will add up to the trillions government controlled health care will cost?

And yeah let's copy European health care. We can copy their value added tax too and their chronically high unemployment rates

Hell we could be the next Greece. Did you know that Greece's debt to GDP ratio was 13% and it's killing them?

The US debt to GDP ratio is 11% so we're knock knock knocking on that door.