God... Is Time.

[RandomVariable]

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

the "honest" words of the present ruler of the Everlasting ... all hail the Almighty. .

.

This is where one poster will Google a term and find a single verse and claim they have understanding. Sorry to inform you of this but you have none. What makes you think you do when understanding to you is as sunlight is to a cave dweller. I will now give an explanation to which Hollie will do her thing, 'it's in the thread somewhere', Breezy will do thing, can't quite decipher that one, and eddie will do his thing, Google.

God is a terrible God. He says so. Is God a terrible God? Depends on who you are. God does evil. He says so. Does God do evil? Depends on who you are. If you have knowledge of good and evil you will know evil when you see it. If you have understanding of evil you will know who you are.

I gave you a detailed examination of the errors, inconsistencies and fraud that litters the Genesis fable. You very nearly suffered a meltdown.

Because you're not emotionally or intellectually prepared to confront the issues presented to you, you should consider avoiding these threads.

Job 24:8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

 

[Hollie]

.
the "honest" words of the present ruler of the Everlasting ... all hail the Almighty. .

.

This is where one poster will Google a term and find a single verse and claim they have understanding. Sorry to inform you of this but you have none. What makes you think you do when understanding to you is as sunlight is to a cave dweller. I will now give an explanation to which Hollie will do her thing, 'it's in the thread somewhere', Breezy will do thing, can't quite decipher that one, and eddie will do his thing, Google.

God is a terrible God. He says so. Is God a terrible God? Depends on who you are. God does evil. He says so. Does God do evil? Depends on who you are. If you have knowledge of good and evil you will know evil when you see it. If you have understanding of evil you will know who you are.

I gave you a detailed examination of the errors, inconsistencies and fraud that litters the Genesis fable. You very nearly suffered a meltdown.

Because you're not emotionally or intellectually prepared to confront the issues presented to you, you should consider avoiding these threads.

Job 24:8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

 

[RandomVariable]

All kidding aside there are places you should not play. You are in one of them.

I have an entitlement, from the gawds.

I will repeat this once for you, Hollie, don't do it. As I have said if I had not seen physical evidence after physical evidence that God approved I would not be doing what I am doing. When I first started I prayed a lot for God to tell me if I was wrong. Even after that I still worried for my very soul. I am more sure of it now but even so I was talking to God less than an hour ago and praying that if I should wander to rein me in.

God is real and you do not have entitlement. Some things can not be undone.

3.5 out of 10 for silly melodrama.

You walk in a fog of your own vanity and arrogance. The light of others you try to dim so other can share your darkness.

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short


Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."
--Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546
"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith."
--Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173
"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21


Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547
Primary Source of Quotations


James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance


Regarding State Meddling with Church

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."
--James Madison, Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
--James Madison, Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731.


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison, 1819

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
--James Madison, 1803
Sources
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...q_JMadison.htm


Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ."
---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
--Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged."
--Thomas Paine

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?"
---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
-- Thomas Paine


"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
-- Thomas Paine



Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine
http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html
http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

Fully agree:

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."

--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281


"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

Thomas Jefferson's statements concerning religion and criminal acts but why are you replying to me about religion and criminal acts?

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
[But sometimes this is taken to mean the discussion of morality and ethics should be taken out of politics, which it most definitely should not.]

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."

--James Madison, 1819​

This might be an insightful statement if it were false concerning Moses. Maybe not false but misleading. Moses is not like a Jesus or a Mo.

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794​

I would like to take a moment to examine the opening paragraph.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
​

There is much injustice done in the name of God. I used to wonder how God could let evil be done within his own house. I understand now that God is more about finding the followers than punishing the evil doers. Fundamentalist who are pounding the table in agreement with their YouTube preacher ranting about how all homosexuals are all going to hell and ruining the country for "the rest of us" while munching down a bacon sandwich had better quit picking and choosing their Bible verses and find the real God. Just about the worse thing that could happen to this country right now is that it picks the next president based on what the majority of believers thinks God wants.

 

[Hollie]

I have an entitlement, from the gawds.

I will repeat this once for you, Hollie, don't do it. As I have said if I had not seen physical evidence after physical evidence that God approved I would not be doing what I am doing. When I first started I prayed a lot for God to tell me if I was wrong. Even after that I still worried for my very soul. I am more sure of it now but even so I was talking to God less than an hour ago and praying that if I should wander to rein me in.

God is real and you do not have entitlement. Some things can not be undone.

3.5 out of 10 for silly melodrama.

You walk in a fog of your own vanity and arrogance. The light of others you try to dim so other can share your darkness.

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short


Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."
--Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546
"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith."
--Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173
"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21


Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547
Primary Source of Quotations


James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance


Regarding State Meddling with Church

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."
--James Madison, Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
--James Madison, Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731.


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison, 1819

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
--James Madison, 1803
Sources
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...q_JMadison.htm


Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ."
---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
--Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged."
--Thomas Paine

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?"
---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
-- Thomas Paine


"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
-- Thomas Paine



Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine
http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html
http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

Fully agree:

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."

--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281


"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

Thomas Jefferson's statements concerning religion and criminal acts but why are you replying to me about religion and criminal acts?

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
[But sometimes this is taken to mean the discussion of morality and ethics should be taken out of politics, which it most definitely should not.]

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."

--James Madison, 1819​

This might be an insightful statement if it were false concerning Moses. Maybe not false but misleading. Moses is not like a Jesus or a Mo.

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794​

I would like to take a moment to examine the opening paragraph.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
​

There is much injustice done in the name of God. I used to wonder how God could let evil be done within his own house. I understand now that God is more about finding the followers than punishing the evil doers. Fundamentalist who are pounding the table in agreement with their YouTube preacher ranting about how all homosexuals are all going to hell and ruining the country for "the rest of us" while munching down a bacon sandwich had better quit picking and choosing their Bible verses and find the real God. Just about the worse thing that could happen to this country right now is that it picks the next president based on what the majority of believers thinks God wants.

So, it may be that you need to duct tape your bibles together into a double-wide and go out onto the street and annoy other people.

 

[RandomVariable]

This is where one poster will Google a term and find a single verse and claim they have understanding. Sorry to inform you of this but you have none. What makes you think you do when understanding to you is as sunlight is to a cave dweller. I will now give an explanation to which Hollie will do her thing, 'it's in the thread somewhere', Breezy will do thing, can't quite decipher that one, and eddie will do his thing, Google.

God is a terrible God. He says so. Is God a terrible God? Depends on who you are. God does evil. He says so. Does God do evil? Depends on who you are. If you have knowledge of good and evil you will know evil when you see it. If you have understanding of evil you will know who you are.

I gave you a detailed examination of the errors, inconsistencies and fraud that litters the Genesis fable. You very nearly suffered a meltdown.

Because you're not emotionally or intellectually prepared to confront the issues presented to you, you should consider avoiding these threads.

Job 24:8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

 

[RandomVariable]

I will repeat this once for you, Hollie, don't do it. As I have said if I had not seen physical evidence after physical evidence that God approved I would not be doing what I am doing. When I first started I prayed a lot for God to tell me if I was wrong. Even after that I still worried for my very soul. I am more sure of it now but even so I was talking to God less than an hour ago and praying that if I should wander to rein me in.

God is real and you do not have entitlement. Some things can not be undone.

3.5 out of 10 for silly melodrama.

You walk in a fog of your own vanity and arrogance. The light of others you try to dim so other can share your darkness.

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short


Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."
--Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546
"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith."
--Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173
"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21


Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547
Primary Source of Quotations


James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance


Regarding State Meddling with Church

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."
--James Madison, Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
--James Madison, Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731.


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison, 1819

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
--James Madison, 1803
Sources
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...q_JMadison.htm


Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ."
---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
--Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged."
--Thomas Paine

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?"
---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
-- Thomas Paine


"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
-- Thomas Paine



Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine
http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html
http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

Fully agree:

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."

--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281


"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

Thomas Jefferson's statements concerning religion and criminal acts but why are you replying to me about religion and criminal acts?

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
[But sometimes this is taken to mean the discussion of morality and ethics should be taken out of politics, which it most definitely should not.]

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."

--James Madison, 1819​

This might be an insightful statement if it were false concerning Moses. Maybe not false but misleading. Moses is not like a Jesus or a Mo.

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794​

I would like to take a moment to examine the opening paragraph.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
​

There is much injustice done in the name of God. I used to wonder how God could let evil be done within his own house. I understand now that God is more about finding the followers than punishing the evil doers. Fundamentalist who are pounding the table in agreement with their YouTube preacher ranting about how all homosexuals are all going to hell and ruining the country for "the rest of us" while munching down a bacon sandwich had better quit picking and choosing their Bible verses and find the real God. Just about the worse thing that could happen to this country right now is that it picks the next president based on what the majority of believers thinks God wants.

So, it may be that you need to duct tape your bibles together into a double-wide and go out onto the street and annoy other people.

My Bible fits in my pocket. It is the baggage that needs the double-wide. Come to God with an open mind and accept no man's baggage.

 

[Hollie]

I gave you a detailed examination of the errors, inconsistencies and fraud that litters the Genesis fable. You very nearly suffered a meltdown.

Because you're not emotionally or intellectually prepared to confront the issues presented to you, you should consider avoiding these threads.

Job 24:8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I first considered writing the one-millionth thread on the philosophical discussion of a Creator, then I paused and thought deeper. Is there some way to break through the typical mundane chore of battling our way through various debates on religion and religious dogma to arrive at some point of mutual understanding or consideration? I am not sure if there is, but it's worth thinking about if you are able to hang your preconceptions at the door and be open minded.

The primary weapon of those who disbelieve concepts of God is science. There is no physical evidence to support the idea of God, therefore God is rejected as a possibility. We are all familiar with the argument, so what is the point in yet another thread to debate this? It's really pointless, right? But the thing is, science doesn't draw conclusions of certainty on the matter of God, or anything else, really. Science merely explores probability and possibility. Man creates conclusions of certainty, and at that moment, he also abandons science for faith. Science continues to explore possibility, and if possibility has been determined to not exist, science can do no more.

I am often asked what is my "proof" that God exists. My proof is Time. Time is God and God is Time. Before you jump to the conclusion this is not possible because Time is a physical dimension we can measure with science, consider the following: Our perception of Time is false. We assume Time exists, we can't perceive the present. We can divide Time into past, present and future. We have no perception of the future or if the future will happen at all. We only have evidence of the past, which includes our perceptions of the present. You see-- Every physical sense we have depends on the passing of time to happen. Something may happen in present time but by the time you perceive it, time has passed and it's in the past. The moment of the present is undetectable to mortal human beings. We assume the present time happened because evidence exists in the past that seems to confirm this. If we cannot observe it, does it really exist?

That's clever and thought provoking. I glanced at the title about 20 times and kept wondering what the OP was going to say. I'm glad I read it and congratulations.

God could also be gravity. We can't see it, but we see how it works

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Time is the measurement of the motion of an object across a given space.

d (distance) = r (rate) times t (time) i.e.. d=rt

t = d/r

Clapton is God. Therefor, C (Clapton) = d/r

and C=t

LOLz

Clapton is highly overrated.



It's 5:30 which is probably greater than the sum of all of Clapton's great solos. If you only have a 40 second attention span skip to 2:40-3:20

 

[Hollie]

I first considered writing the one-millionth thread on the philosophical discussion of a Creator, then I paused and thought deeper. Is there some way to break through the typical mundane chore of battling our way through various debates on religion and religious dogma to arrive at some point of mutual understanding or consideration? I am not sure if there is, but it's worth thinking about if you are able to hang your preconceptions at the door and be open minded.

The primary weapon of those who disbelieve concepts of God is science. There is no physical evidence to support the idea of God, therefore God is rejected as a possibility. We are all familiar with the argument, so what is the point in yet another thread to debate this? It's really pointless, right? But the thing is, science doesn't draw conclusions of certainty on the matter of God, or anything else, really. Science merely explores probability and possibility. Man creates conclusions of certainty, and at that moment, he also abandons science for faith. Science continues to explore possibility, and if possibility has been determined to not exist, science can do no more.

I am often asked what is my "proof" that God exists. My proof is Time. Time is God and God is Time. Before you jump to the conclusion this is not possible because Time is a physical dimension we can measure with science, consider the following: Our perception of Time is false. We assume Time exists, we can't perceive the present. We can divide Time into past, present and future. We have no perception of the future or if the future will happen at all. We only have evidence of the past, which includes our perceptions of the present. You see-- Every physical sense we have depends on the passing of time to happen. Something may happen in present time but by the time you perceive it, time has passed and it's in the past. The moment of the present is undetectable to mortal human beings. We assume the present time happened because evidence exists in the past that seems to confirm this. If we cannot observe it, does it really exist?

That's clever and thought provoking. I glanced at the title about 20 times and kept wondering what the OP was going to say. I'm glad I read it and congratulations.

God could also be gravity. We can't see it, but we see how it works

Gawd could be bronchitis.

 

[RandomVariable]

Job 24:8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

1 Chronicles 22

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.​

 

[Hollie]

Job 24:8.1 thou drink'eth the Kool-Aid and embrace'eth the horror for want'eth of religious fundamentalism'eth.

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

1 Chronicles 22

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.​

1. Chronicles 22a

8 thou'est shall not'est get liquored up before'est noon.​

 

[RandomVariable]

Job 13

7Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

8Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

9Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?

10He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

11Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

12Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.​

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

1 Chronicles 22

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.​

1. Chronicles 22a

8 thou'est shall not'est get liquored up before'est noon.​

Numbers 6

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.​

 

[there4eyeM]

Time to be present with God.

 

[Hollie]

What do you think will be accomplished by hurling your bibles verses at me? There's a certain negative stereotype associated with frantic thumpers.

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

1 Chronicles 22

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.​

1. Chronicles 22a

8 thou'est shall not'est get liquored up before'est noon.​

Numbers 6

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.​

You're beyond creepy, dude.

Enjoy your pathology.

CYA.

 

[RandomVariable]

Ruth 1

14And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.​

You do realize that you have become the stereotype of the unreasonable, frantic thumper. You may well be a danger to yourself and others.

1 Chronicles 22

8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.​

1. Chronicles 22a

8 thou'est shall not'est get liquored up before'est noon.​

Numbers 6

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.​

You're beyond creepy, dude.

Enjoy your pathology.

CYA.

2 Samuel 6

16And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. 19And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.​

 

[Boss]

Can we PLEASE stop quoting, debating and arguing Biblical Scriptures here? The thread OP specifically asks for you to check your religious beliefs at the door and consider the OP with an open mind. This is NOT a "theological" argument... YES, it's in the "Religion" forum because that is where topics about God and Philosophy go. There isn't a better alternative so this is where the thread resides.

Like virtually every other thread which mentions the concept of God, people like Hollie are going to exploit it to turn the argument into yet another endless and pointless argument about Christianity. She knows there are Christians who can't resist the bait and the evidence is clear she is correct. So let's get the OP train back on the tracks and off this silly bantering over various interpretations of the Bible, which have absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

If you guys wish to debate the Bible, start a damn Bible Study thread and have at it... don't hijack THIS thread!

 

[Hollie]

Can we PLEASE stop quoting, debating and arguing Biblical Scriptures here? The thread OP specifically asks for you to check your religious beliefs at the door and consider the OP with an open mind. This is NOT a "theological" argument... YES, it's in the "Religion" forum because that is where topics about God and Philosophy go. There isn't a better alternative so this is where the thread resides.

Like virtually every other thread which mentions the concept of God, people like Hollie are going to exploit it to turn the argument into yet another endless and pointless argument about Christianity. She knows there are Christians who can't resist the bait and the evidence is clear she is correct. So let's get the OP train back on the tracks and off this silly bantering over various interpretations of the Bible, which have absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

If you guys wish to debate the Bible, start a damn Bible Study thread and have at it... don't hijack THIS thread!

Are you done whining about how much control I have over Christians?

 

[edthecynic]

God is a terrible God. He says so. Is God a terrible God? Depends on who you are. God does evil. He says so. Does God do evil? Depends on who you are. If you have knowledge of good and evil you will know evil when you see it. If you have understanding of evil you will know who you are.

Na 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You are taking the lazy way out and not reading the thread because all of this has been discussed and explained.

"God ...is Time" is intentionally vague... God is actually greater than time, or light, energy, space, other dimensions, dark matter, etc. Omnipotent God can create the entire universe every nanosecond in order to create a "present" which we cannot observe until physics happens.

You say that we can only perceive the present but we can't, physics won't allow it. What we're perceiving as the present has already happened and is forever in the past.

Ah, so you are speaking of principles you don't understand that have been misinterpreted by others, which you have latched on to in order to form the fallacious opinions you share here?

Now.. "perceptions" are funny things... we can be all over the board with what we perceive as "now." ...I've been single my whole life but I think I'd like to marry now... do I mean immediately? Is it the same as "we need to get him to the hospital now!" And is that the same as saying "the time is now!" How about "the solar eclipse is happening now!" So, you see... our perception on "now" can vary greatly.

The Super Bowl example I presented earlier... You're watching the game happen "live" on TV, but the actual game is 12 seconds ahead because of network delay. Your perception is that it is happening in the present, even though you know it isn't. Furthermore, let's say you're watching "live" in the stadium... your perception of "present" in the nosebleed section is different than your perception of "present" on the line of scrimmage or the sidelines... light has to travel further... physics has to happen. We simply cannot observe the present, we can only have faith in our perception which is bound to the past by physics.

Grammatical semantics are irrelevant. What you perceive as you read these words is the present. Cones absorb light, synapses pass impulses, and your brain processes the stimuli to help you grasp what is in front of you.

You only perceive the present. You remember the past, with varying accuracy, and you imagine the future. But only the present is perceived.