God given rights?

[onecut39]

You must've failed comprehensive reading. Here is the sentence right before the one you quoted...

If we had all these "inalienable rights" we sure wouldn't need governments to secure them....would we?

Inalienable right is an oxymoron. All rights can be taken away therefore there are no inalienable rights.

Again

A right given only by man or the created government of man could subsequently be taken away.... when you deem a right as inalienable and given by a power or authority higher than man, you are basically saying that no matter what man may do, deep down all of mankind still should have that right

Is there anything more useless than an "inalienable right" that has been taken away?

 

[flacaltenn]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments. That may be true but God is incredibly bad at keeping those rights for his people and never once has he intervened, personally, to lend a hand. It has always been our job to raise the armies, take the casualties and shoulder the burden while God sits idly by without even a muted cheer.

Even the founders knew better. The declaration states that, "to secure these rights governments are instituted among men". I guess there is no need for those first ten amendments to the constitution either. With god on our side who the hell needs a Bill of Rights?

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy.

Ryan is here

Paul Ryan: Repeal health law because rights come from God | The Raw Story

The declaration is here. (Although our patriotic and learned rightwingnuts should have no need of verification. This holy text should be burned into their memory if not their soul)

Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

You must've failed comprehensive reading. Here is the sentence right before the one you quoted...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If we had all these "inalienable rights" we sure wouldn't need governments to secure them....would we?

Inalienable right is an oxymoron. All rights can be taken away therefore there are no inalienable rights.

Not at all. In THIS country -- our founding documents ACKNOWLEDGE a higher authority than the laws of men. No god or GOD required. It's a humble acknowledgement that these rights will NEVER be taken away.. Not even by you.. They are -- inalienable -- even if you are serving 33yrs to life for a political thought crime..

 

[Avatar4321]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

So true !
George Washington was one of the biggest of believers from the experiences he encountered during his battles. How many times did he say he was saved from bullets and that he would not have survived without divine intervention?
Every single one of them believed we won the war with God's help.

So where was God on Nine-Eleven?

helping the First responders rescuing people. Im sure if you google 9/11 miracles you will find countless accounts of God helping people.

 

[Avatar4321]

Irrelevant. No human being has the right to the use of the body of another human being against their will. Do you disagree with that?

Is it really against their will when they use their body in a way to become pregnant?

If it is against their will, then it is against their will. I believe the phrase is, "No means no." So I ask again, do you disagree with my statement?

I already told you that your logic is flawed. you cant jump off a cliff and then get upset when you hit the ground and experience alot of pain.

Actions have consquences. Start accepting that and you can truly make a difference in the world. As long as you excuse your behavior and the behavior of others, major sociall problems will exist.

 

[The T]

You should crack a history book, you sound like a complete moron. Nooo... You ARE a complete moron.

Less than half of the delegates to the constitutional convention were slave owners, and many of those divested themselves shortly thereafter. Break out the history book again, you need a little help. The 3/5 Compromise was used to LIMIT the power of the Southern States.

Strike one... strike two... strike three, you're out!!

Dead accurate. The Founders in oder to get the Southern States onboard came up with it to get the Constitution passed.

I am always amused by folks who think the founders sat around a table drinking tea and politely discussing the intellectual niceties of liberty.

It was more like a catfight, often bitter, with compromises made on all sides. The revolution was founded on economic issues and slavery was just another such issue. There was a compromise. Some got rid of their slaves, some did not.

For certain the institution lasted another hundred years and we still bear the scars.

No shit sherlock. YOUR first mistake was assigning that to me. I know damned well what they went through and there were duels at the time (too bad they're illegal and out of fashion, by the way)...

Son don't go preaching history to me.

 

[flacaltenn]

There is no such thing as natural rights. There are only rights you obtain and keep by blood.

Wow -- I thought only free-market defending, knuckle dragging Cons believed in the law of the Jungle and "Might makes Right". Another reason I wouldn't want to march with you in civil disobedience..

I didn't know it was that easy to dismiss a concept like Natural Rights.. Here -- lemme try.

There's no such thing as The Social Compact.. I never signed up... Wow -- I feel better now..

Sorry. You didn't have to sign. It's imprinted in your genes. Tough luck.

Ah so.. The agreements that supercede man-made law that YOU LIKE are imprinted in your genes.. But the Natural Law that inspired all of Modern Democracy is my personal little fantasy.. How damned convienient.. And which religious group do you belong to that believes the Social Compact is imprinted in your genes?

 

[Avatar4321]

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

I have no doubt that there wer emany Brit's whose prayer was answered. But the simple fact is that a people who follow God can call upon Him to grant them liberty.

Gandhi tried to teach this to His people. They wouldnt be free until they turned to God and governed themselves.

When a people live their individual covenants with God, the powers of God are made manifest. Can any of you truly deny the miracles that occured to save the Continental armies?

The miracles in Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, Valley Forge, Philadelphia, Yorktown and countless other places won us our Independence.

This nation was establshed because It was God's will to do so. It furthered His purposes. That's why He made the covenant with the Founders. And our Nation can only be restored if we turn to Him, Envoke the covenant through our daily actions. If we turn away from the American Covenant we will be brought into bondage and destroyed by our own foolish actions.

And here I thought we could stop making up deities for things we couldn't explain in past times with the advent of chemistry, biology, physics, geology, meteorology, geography, oceanography, anthopology, archeology......

Dont need to make up anything. God exists and He intervened in the Revolution. Doesn't matter if you accept it or not. It happened. Nature just doesn't randomly support one group of people in battle over another.

 

[Avatar4321]

They were on the side of tyranny? Which side had the slave owners?

BOTH and practice at the time. Nice try at deflection. The Founders didn't like it and I suggest you look into the 3/5ths Compromise...and after that WE fought a war to rid ourselves of that shame.

TRY AGAIN.

No. There was no slavery in England at the time. It was illegal there. Only here were there slave owners. But it was England that held the tyrants? I think not.

A large portion of the founders were slave owners, so they didn't dislike it that much. The 3/5's compromise was not to reduce slavery, but to give more votes to the slave holding states without extending any rights to the slaves. As to WE fighting. The south fought to retain slavery. In fact, they fought to expand it. So by WE, I assume you mean the north. Which did not fight for that reason at all.

the 3/5 compromise didnt give more votes to the slave holding states. It penalized them and preventing them from their full representation.

 

[flacaltenn]

If we had all these "inalienable rights" we sure wouldn't need governments to secure them....would we?

Inalienable right is an oxymoron. All rights can be taken away therefore there are no inalienable rights.

Again

A right given only by man or the created government of man could subsequently be taken away.... when you deem a right as inalienable and given by a power or authority higher than man, you are basically saying that no matter what man may do, deep down all of mankind still should have that right

Is there anything more useless than an "inalienable right" that has been taken away?

You cannot remove a Natural Right. To do that is clearly evil. And it must be opposed. It gives a clear definition for civil disobedience doesn't it? But instead of the "blood" and Might makes Right pessimistic atheist crap -- A belief in Natural Rights spawns another option. The option of non-violent disobedience. That there is an appeal to like-minded individuals who are skeptical about govt power. That's a good thing. Because if YOU FOLKS had all the power -- blood would be running all the time..

 

[Avatar4321]

Yes...yes I do. You want to see what you want to see.everyone wants to think god is on there side. If I was a god I would be insulted that my believers think I would pick a side.
but then again I am not a god,but I am rational.

And what exactly is irrational about believing God acts in the affairs of man?

Nothing, its just not something I would put down as a fact. You have zero proof outside of faith. Which faith is worth a fart in a bucket.

You can pretend all day long a god intervened, that doesn't make it so.

Dont need to pretend. We have the historical record before us. Just because you ignore what you dont like to hear doesn't mean it's not there.

i suggest you look into the battles of the Revolution. Do you know how many times the Continental Army survived because an unexpected natural event occured at just the right time?

Look at the Battle of Princeton. The British move to attack Trenton and get stuck in the mud the entire time they are advancing slowing up their movements. Meanwhile Washington gets the idea to take some backroads and attack Princeton and all the mud just miraculously freezes allowing them to swiftly get there and attack while the British were stuck in the mud.

Do you know how many times in battle nature assisted the Continental army? God works through nature.

Do you have any idea how many times a dense thick fog arrived just to help cover the Continental army at extremely covenient times in both the battles of Boston and Long Island?

Do you know how many times having just the right wind direction helped them in Boston, Long Island, Yorktown, and Trenton?

There is no way the colonists should have one fighting the greatest army of the world at the time. They should have been crushed within months and almost were crushed except Nature and Nature's God assisted them.

You can deny God's hand all you want. His fingerprints are all over these battles. They are what they are.

Washington and the Founders recognized His hand. They realized they couldn't do what they were trying to do without His assistance and actively sought it at every opportunity.

 

[Avatar4321]

other atheists make me a believer in god, his wording kills me

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy




heres my quesdtion to other atheists, if you dont believe in something, why do u get offended if people are doing something u dont beleive exists?

You can believe whatever you wish. Not your beliefs that offend me it is just your actions. Having a congressman tell me that my rights are in the hands of a god..........now that offends me.

I wrongly referred to Ryan as a senator. My bad. I apologize.

They are in the hands of God. But hey, if you dont want to believe Thomas Jefferson you dont have to. Just dont be surprised if a government takes them away. After all, rights granted by man can be taken by them.

 

[Avatar4321]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments. That may be true but God is incredibly bad at keeping those rights for his people and never once has he intervened, personally, to lend a hand. It has always been our job to raise the armies, take the casualties and shoulder the burden while God sits idly by without even a muted cheer.

Even the founders knew better. The declaration states that, "to secure these rights governments are instituted among men". I guess there is no need for those first ten amendments to the constitution either. With god on our side who the hell needs a Bill of Rights?

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy.

Ryan is here

Paul Ryan: Repeal health law because rights come from God | The Raw Story

The declaration is here. (Although our patriotic and learned rightwingnuts should have no need of verification. This holy text should be burned into their memory if not their soul)

Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

Anybody who thinks like Ryan is an idealogue. God given rights is a nice way of saying "I can do what I like without any consequences"...

Actually it means the exact opposite because with those rights come God given responsibilities. Something that has largely been ignored by people. Because rights are given to us to fulfill our responsibilities.

 

[bodecea]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

God intervened at Yorktown, you say?

I don't think the black runaways slaves were too appreciative of God's intervention there.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments. That may be true but God is incredibly bad at keeping those rights for his people and never once has he intervened, personally, to lend a hand. It has always been our job to raise the armies, take the casualties and shoulder the burden while God sits idly by without even a muted cheer.

Even the founders knew better. The declaration states that, "to secure these rights governments are instituted among men". I guess there is no need for those first ten amendments to the constitution either. With god on our side who the hell needs a Bill of Rights?

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy.

Ryan is here

Paul Ryan: Repeal health law because rights come from God | The Raw Story

The declaration is here. (Although our patriotic and learned rightwingnuts should have no need of verification. This holy text should be burned into their memory if not their soul)

Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

The construct that the rights of men are derived from God, not the government, is the antithesis of theocracy. The rule of law wherein the powers of the government are emphatically delineated and limited follows from that. The only theocracies, as it were, are those societies that do not heed the only authentic Source and Guarantor of human rights. Such are inevitably subject to statist governments.

Further, the Founders most certainly would not agree with you. They would laugh at your sophomoric drivel. The Lockean philosophy of government, the theory that guided them, begins with (1) the derivation of humans rights—Divinity—and proceeds to (2) the general consent of the governed. You confound two distinct things. You are deluded and ignorant about the philosophical origins and logical prerequisites of an enduring democratic rule of law.

I know a number of atheists who are not so stupid. While they do not believe that God exists, they are wise enough to embrace the Lockean philosophy of government as though He did, recognizing, from historical experience and the self-evident fundamentals of realty, the collectivist and statist nature of the alternative.

But of course they are not silly leftists, but classical liberals like myself.

 

[Dr Grump]

I know damned well what they went through and there were duels at the time (too bad they're illegal and out of fashion, by the way)...

A clear sign of two things:

Somebody who was born 200 years too late.
Some still have the Neanderthal gene in them....

 

[Dr Grump]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

God intervened at Yorktown, you say?

I don't think the black runaways slaves were too appreciative of God's intervention there.

Funny how that works.

Anything bad (9-11) = humans disobeying this god entity
The good (rescuers in 9-11) = God intervening.

Seriously, couldn't make this shit up..

What until you hear the one about 5 year old kids getting cancer and dying...

 

[flacaltenn]

Further, the Founders most certainly would not agree with you. They would laugh at your sophomoric drivel. The Lockean philosophy of government, the theory that guided them, begins with (1) the derivation of humans rights—Divinity—and proceeds to (2) the general consent of the governed. You confound two distinct things. You are deluded and ignorant about the philosophical origins and logical prerequisites of an enduring democratic rule of law.

I know a number of atheists who are not so stupid. While they do not believe that God exists, they are wise enough to embrace the Lockean philosophy of government as though He did, recognizing, from historical experience and the self-evident fundamentals of realty, the collectivist and statist nature of the alternative.

But of course they are not silly leftists, but classical liberals like myself.

It wasn't called "The Enlightment" for nothing..

And it's awfully hard to dismiss Natural Rights when the concept in its entirety ended up being the undoing of the Monarchs and the beginning of Modern Democracies.

But you can try (I guess) by tying it to "stupid religious zealots" as a few on this thread have tried to do. As M.D. Rawlings is telling you -- it's not about prayer or a specific religion. It's actually about the self-preservation instinct in Classic Liberals that spawns a basic mistrust of power..

 

[Plasmaball]

So true !
George Washington was one of the biggest of believers from the experiences he encountered during his battles. How many times did he say he was saved from bullets and that he would not have survived without divine intervention?
Every single one of them believed we won the war with God's help.

So where was God on Nine-Eleven?

helping the First responders rescuing people. Im sure if you google 9/11 miracles you will find countless accounts of God helping people.

Yeah till god decided to have the building collapse right?

Shut up.

 

[Plasmaball]

I have no doubt that there wer emany Brit's whose prayer was answered. But the simple fact is that a people who follow God can call upon Him to grant them liberty.

Gandhi tried to teach this to His people. They wouldnt be free until they turned to God and governed themselves.

When a people live their individual covenants with God, the powers of God are made manifest. Can any of you truly deny the miracles that occured to save the Continental armies?

The miracles in Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, Valley Forge, Philadelphia, Yorktown and countless other places won us our Independence.

This nation was establshed because It was God's will to do so. It furthered His purposes. That's why He made the covenant with the Founders. And our Nation can only be restored if we turn to Him, Envoke the covenant through our daily actions. If we turn away from the American Covenant we will be brought into bondage and destroyed by our own foolish actions.

And here I thought we could stop making up deities for things we couldn't explain in past times with the advent of chemistry, biology, physics, geology, meteorology, geography, oceanography, anthopology, archeology......

Dont need to make up anything. God exists and He intervened in the Revolution. Doesn't matter if you accept it or not. It happened. Nature just doesn't randomly support one group of people in battle over another.

You are embarrassing

 

[Charles_Main]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments. That may be true but God is incredibly bad at keeping those rights for his people and never once has he intervened, personally, to lend a hand. It has always been our job to raise the armies, take the casualties and shoulder the burden while God sits idly by without even a muted cheer.

Even the founders knew better. The declaration states that, "to secure these rights governments are instituted among men". I guess there is no need for those first ten amendments to the constitution either. With god on our side who the hell needs a Bill of Rights?

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy.

Ryan is here

Paul Ryan: Repeal health law because rights come from God | The Raw Story

The declaration is here. (Although our patriotic and learned rightwingnuts should have no need of verification. This holy text should be burned into their memory if not their soul)

Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

You just don't get it. Ryan is not saying you have to believe in God, he is saying, as our Founders did. That your rights do not come from Man, and no man can ever take them. Period.

Ours is the only constitution I know of that does not list a Bunch of rights the government grants you, which therefore could be taken away. It lists rights given to you by a higher power, call it what you want, God or just common Human Decency. That can not be taken from you.