God given rights?

[PratchettFan]

No.. See Alan Keyes above for what what happens when POWER to rob, beat and kill me has it's boot on my neck.. You don't DEFEAT righteousness and moral superiority with power. And perhaps -- had you been in Selma with MLK -- those prayers to a higher authority than the law might have done YOU some good in that cause as well...

You're simply a defeatist who believes in capitulation in the face of evil...

The only way you do it is with power. If not the power of the gun, the power of public opinion. Without either, you lose. But you believe as you please. People have died fighting evil so that you can think they had nothing to do with it.

You bet I'll do as I please. Because when I see evil -- I don't accept it. I don't acquisce to it. I don't reason with it. Not even public opinion or the gun assures the rights and morals that I believe in... And the Declaration and references to God in this country's founding was a wise reminder of why we can't let that pessimistic attitude prevail..

No bible-thumping or fire/brimstone required here to defend the concept.

Exactly. You can do as you please because you live in a country where we let you. If you lived in Iran, then you could not do as you please. And God would not be interceding on your behalf.

 

[DiamondDave]

Irrelevant. No human being has the right to the use of the body of another human being against their will. Do you disagree with that?

Then give the fetus its day in court.. convict it of civil rights violations and sentence it to prison

Or start prosecuting those babies who are breastfeeding... or that start reaching for their parents when the parents want to be left alone... or that crawl up next to their parents when they are cold...

You are about as ignorant as they come... and I think GB and GP have addressed your little snarky comment sufficiently as well

So you would agree then that I have the right to your body, so long as my need is great enough. Or does your position only apply when it is someone else's body?

Really, it is not my fault if the moral foundation you base your position on is weak.

Then would you agree you have the right to abandon or terminate your child of any age if you just feel you don't want to feed or take care of them anymore?? Would you also agree that taking money in child support is taking from your body since you body is what is being used to earn the $$, and that persons have no right to that child support then??

It is not my fault that your conditional reasoning and subjective (and arbitrary) starting points are weak

 

[The T]

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

And what was the other side fighting for? Liberty? Hardly. They were on the side of Tyranny.

Get it ace?

They were on the side of tyranny? Which side had the slave owners?

BOTH and practice at the time. Nice try at deflection. The Founders didn't like it and I suggest you look into the 3/5ths Compromise...and after that WE fought a war to rid ourselves of that shame.

TRY AGAIN.

 

[flacaltenn]

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

Sure He does. He certainly intervened a lot during the American Revolution. Ive already pointed out some real events where He was active. If it wasnt for the Hand of Divine Providence Washington and the army would have been crushed within months. The Founders certainly recognized and thanked God for his merciful intervention in the cause of their liberty.

The problem is too many people expect to just ask with out taking any effort on their own. They think talking with God is like ordering a pizza. They say what they want and they expect Him to deliver it with no effort on their part. That's not how God works. It never has been.

A covenant relationship requires action, thought, effort on our part. Not to "save" ourselves. But the preparation to let God work through us is something people completely neglect.

Instead of humbling ourselves, we act with pride. Instead of being grateful, we are covetous. Instead of being honest, we lie when it suits us.

God is bound when we do what He says. He has to bless us with the promises He has promised. But when we dont do what He says we have no promise.

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

Let's see --- who needed to be humbled during the Revolutionary war? Who's KING was using the colonies as a cash hog and denying basic human rights of representation and law? Praying to prevail doesn't guarantee an outcome. But invoking your Natural Rights -- usually does.. . We need to keep that concept around.. It's actually brilliant.

See the history of almost every human rights struggle in recent history.

 

[sfcalifornia]

Sure He does. He certainly intervened a lot during the American Revolution. Ive already pointed out some real events where He was active. If it wasnt for the Hand of Divine Providence Washington and the army would have been crushed within months. The Founders certainly recognized and thanked God for his merciful intervention in the cause of their liberty.

The problem is too many people expect to just ask with out taking any effort on their own. They think talking with God is like ordering a pizza. They say what they want and they expect Him to deliver it with no effort on their part. That's not how God works. It never has been.

A covenant relationship requires action, thought, effort on our part. Not to "save" ourselves. But the preparation to let God work through us is something people completely neglect.

Instead of humbling ourselves, we act with pride. Instead of being grateful, we are covetous. Instead of being honest, we lie when it suits us.

God is bound when we do what He says. He has to bless us with the promises He has promised. But when we dont do what He says we have no promise.

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

I have no doubt that there wer emany Brit's whose prayer was answered. But the simple fact is that a people who follow God can call upon Him to grant them liberty.

Gandhi tried to teach this to His people. They wouldnt be free until they turned to God and governed themselves.

When a people live their individual covenants with God, the powers of God are made manifest. Can any of you truly deny the miracles that occured to save the Continental armies?

The miracles in Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, Valley Forge, Philadelphia, Yorktown and countless other places won us our Independence.

This nation was establshed because It was God's will to do so. It furthered His purposes. That's why He made the covenant with the Founders. And our Nation can only be restored if we turn to Him, Envoke the covenant through our daily actions. If we turn away from the American Covenant we will be brought into bondage and destroyed by our own foolish actions.

And here I thought we could stop making up deities for things we couldn't explain in past times with the advent of chemistry, biology, physics, geology, meteorology, geography, oceanography, anthopology, archeology......

 

[PratchettFan]

Then give the fetus its day in court.. convict it of civil rights violations and sentence it to prison

Or start prosecuting those babies who are breastfeeding... or that start reaching for their parents when the parents want to be left alone... or that crawl up next to their parents when they are cold...

You are about as ignorant as they come... and I think GB and GP have addressed your little snarky comment sufficiently as well

So you would agree then that I have the right to your body, so long as my need is great enough. Or does your position only apply when it is someone else's body?

Really, it is not my fault if the moral foundation you base your position on is weak.

Then would you agree you have the right to abandon or terminate your child of any age if you just feel you don't want to feed or take care of them anymore?? Would you also agree that taking money in child support is taking from your body since you body is what is being used to earn the $$, and that persons have no right to that child support then??

It is not my fault that your conditional reasoning and subjective (and arbitrary) starting points are weak

After birth the mother can turn over the child for adoption. For that matter, the state can step in and take the child away if they think it is in the child's best interest. However, after birth the child is no longer dependent upon the body of the mother.

I do not apply subjective morality. I accept the consequences of a moral position, even if it is inconvenient. Forcing one person to place their body into the service of another against their will is involuntary servitude. There is no other way for it to be. I am opposed to that. No human being has the right to the body of another human being against their will. Therefore, no woman should be forced to carry a fetus if it is agains her will.

This is a conflict between two rights. If you think the right to life supercedes the right to personal sovereignty then your body belongs to my need. If you think it doesn't, then the fetus exists within the mother only with her consent. If you think you have the right to personal sovereignty but a pregnant woman does not, then it is you that is using conditional reasoning and subjective standards.

 

[Meister]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

Yes. That was Andersonville in GA. I am certain the fact that it was built in a swamp had nothing at all to do with a spring opening up.

Yes, right after the stream went dry.

 

[The T]

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

I have no doubt that there wer emany Brit's whose prayer was answered. But the simple fact is that a people who follow God can call upon Him to grant them liberty.

Gandhi tried to teach this to His people. They wouldnt be free until they turned to God and governed themselves.

When a people live their individual covenants with God, the powers of God are made manifest. Can any of you truly deny the miracles that occured to save the Continental armies?

The miracles in Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, Valley Forge, Philadelphia, Yorktown and countless other places won us our Independence.

This nation was establshed because It was God's will to do so. It furthered His purposes. That's why He made the covenant with the Founders. And our Nation can only be restored if we turn to Him, Envoke the covenant through our daily actions. If we turn away from the American Covenant we will be brought into bondage and destroyed by our own foolish actions.

And here I thought we could stop making up deities for things we couldn't explain in past times with the advent of chemistry, biology, physics, geology, meteorology, geography, oceanography, anthopology, archeology......

So YOU take the elistist view and DENY in larger things than yourself anyway? Has Science ever proven the non-existence of God? Or visa-versa?

YOU lack faith. And your problem.

 

[Meister]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

This user believes Avatar is nuts.

Like that carries any weight.

 

[The T]

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

Yes. That was Andersonville in GA. I am certain the fact that it was built in a swamp had nothing at all to do with a spring opening up.

Yes, right after the stream went dry.

apparently that little factoid escaped him.

 

[DiamondDave]

So you would agree then that I have the right to your body, so long as my need is great enough. Or does your position only apply when it is someone else's body?

Really, it is not my fault if the moral foundation you base your position on is weak.

Then would you agree you have the right to abandon or terminate your child of any age if you just feel you don't want to feed or take care of them anymore?? Would you also agree that taking money in child support is taking from your body since you body is what is being used to earn the $$, and that persons have no right to that child support then??

It is not my fault that your conditional reasoning and subjective (and arbitrary) starting points are weak

After birth the mother can turn over the child for adoption. For that matter, the state can step in and take the child away if they think it is in the child's best interest. However, after birth the child is no longer dependent upon the body of the mother.

I do not apply subjective morality. I accept the consequences of a moral position, even if it is inconvenient. Forcing one person to place their body into the service of another against their will is involuntary servitude. There is no other way for it to be. I am opposed to that. No human being has the right to the body of another human being against their will. Therefore, no woman should be forced to carry a fetus if it is agains her will.

This is a conflict between two rights. If you think the right to life supercedes the right to personal sovereignty then your body belongs to my need. If you think it doesn't, then the fetus exists within the mother only with her consent. If you think you have the right to personal sovereignty but a pregnant woman does not, then it is you that is using conditional reasoning and subjective standards.

That is right.. after birth, you can turn it over for adoption... but you can't arbitrarily kill the child because you do not want to take care of it...

Before birth, you can sign it away for adoption... and if the technology were in place to raise the developing fetus/child without a womb, I am sure you would geta lot less arguments from us pro-lifers about raising the developing child in an outside environment to be adopted away

And it is not involuntary servitude.... the mother made the choice to have sex with the risk of being impregnated, even if using precautions.... just as you don't have the right to back out of other responsibilities that stem from the consequences of your choices and actions

 

[flacaltenn]

The only way you do it is with power. If not the power of the gun, the power of public opinion. Without either, you lose. But you believe as you please. People have died fighting evil so that you can think they had nothing to do with it.

You bet I'll do as I please. Because when I see evil -- I don't accept it. I don't acquisce to it. I don't reason with it. Not even public opinion or the gun assures the rights and morals that I believe in... And the Declaration and references to God in this country's founding was a wise reminder of why we can't let that pessimistic attitude prevail..

No bible-thumping or fire/brimstone required here to defend the concept.

Exactly. You can do as you please because you live in a country where we let you. If you lived in Iran, then you could not do as you please. And God would not be interceding on your behalf.

The Natural Rights that the Founders evoked were clearly spelled out in the Declaration. YOU are not LETTING ME defend my rights.

Iran is a country where dissidents also exist. They must not only battle with political power but argue with a tyrannical religious structure. Similiar to the arrogant religious structures that the Founders fled from.. I guarantee you,, there are Iranian students in jail today that can recite OUR Declaration of Independence and they would defend that concept with their lives.. Which is more than I can say about a lot of my fellow 'mericans.

 

[The T]

Then would you agree you have the right to abandon or terminate your child of any age if you just feel you don't want to feed or take care of them anymore?? Would you also agree that taking money in child support is taking from your body since you body is what is being used to earn the $$, and that persons have no right to that child support then??

It is not my fault that your conditional reasoning and subjective (and arbitrary) starting points are weak

After birth the mother can turn over the child for adoption. For that matter, the state can step in and take the child away if they think it is in the child's best interest. However, after birth the child is no longer dependent upon the body of the mother.

I do not apply subjective morality. I accept the consequences of a moral position, even if it is inconvenient. Forcing one person to place their body into the service of another against their will is involuntary servitude. There is no other way for it to be. I am opposed to that. No human being has the right to the body of another human being against their will. Therefore, no woman should be forced to carry a fetus if it is agains her will.

This is a conflict between two rights. If you think the right to life supercedes the right to personal sovereignty then your body belongs to my need. If you think it doesn't, then the fetus exists within the mother only with her consent. If you think you have the right to personal sovereignty but a pregnant woman does not, then it is you that is using conditional reasoning and subjective standards.

That is right.. after birth, you can turn it over for adoption... but you can arbitrarily kill the child because you do not want to take care of it...

Before birth, you can sign it away for adoption... and if the technology were in place to raise the developing fetus/child without a womb, I am sure you would geta lot less arguments from us pro-lifers about raising the developing child in an outside environment to be adopted away

And it is not involuntary servitude.... the mother made the choice to have sex with the risk of being impregnated, even if using precautions.... just as you don't have the right to back out of other responsibilities that stem from the consequences of your choices and actions

Dead On^.

Statists want a guilt-free society of anything goes...no matter who it hurts...even the innocent.

They have zero concept of liberty.

 

[PratchettFan]

And what was the other side fighting for? Liberty? Hardly. They were on the side of Tyranny.

Get it ace?

They were on the side of tyranny? Which side had the slave owners?

BOTH and practice at the time. Nice try at deflection. The Founders didn't like it and I suggest you look into the 3/5ths Compromise...and after that WE fought a war to rid ourselves of that shame.

TRY AGAIN.

No. There was no slavery in England at the time. It was illegal there. Only here were there slave owners. But it was England that held the tyrants? I think not.

A large portion of the founders were slave owners, so they didn't dislike it that much. The 3/5's compromise was not to reduce slavery, but to give more votes to the slave holding states without extending any rights to the slaves. As to WE fighting. The south fought to retain slavery. In fact, they fought to expand it. So by WE, I assume you mean the north. Which did not fight for that reason at all.

 

[The T]

They were on the side of tyranny? Which side had the slave owners?

BOTH and practice at the time. Nice try at deflection. The Founders didn't like it and I suggest you look into the 3/5ths Compromise...and after that WE fought a war to rid ourselves of that shame.

TRY AGAIN.

No. There was no slavery in England at the time. It was illegal there. Only here were there slave owners. But it was England that held the tyrants? I think not.

A large portion of the founders were slave owners, so they didn't dislike it that much. The 3/5's compromise was not to reduce slavery, but to give more votes to the slave holding states without extending any rights to the slaves. As to WE fighting. The south fought to retain slavery. In fact, they fought to expand it. So by WE, I assume you mean the north. Which did not fight for that reason at all.

Bullshit.

At the time of the revolution? The English were all into it and didn't abolish it until around 1833.

Try Again.

 

[flacaltenn]

Gimme a break.

There were lots of god-fearing men on the Brit's side during the Revolution too. Who answered their prayers? Or were they praying to the wrong god? Or was it that there simply weren't enough men praying at the same time? Or was it that all Brits were just plain evil during those times and didn't deserve to win?

I have no doubt that there wer emany Brit's whose prayer was answered. But the simple fact is that a people who follow God can call upon Him to grant them liberty.

Gandhi tried to teach this to His people. They wouldnt be free until they turned to God and governed themselves.

When a people live their individual covenants with God, the powers of God are made manifest. Can any of you truly deny the miracles that occured to save the Continental armies?

The miracles in Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, Valley Forge, Philadelphia, Yorktown and countless other places won us our Independence.

This nation was establshed because It was God's will to do so. It furthered His purposes. That's why He made the covenant with the Founders. And our Nation can only be restored if we turn to Him, Envoke the covenant through our daily actions. If we turn away from the American Covenant we will be brought into bondage and destroyed by our own foolish actions.

And here I thought we could stop making up deities for things we couldn't explain in past times with the advent of chemistry, biology, physics, geology, meteorology, geography, oceanography, anthopology, archeology......

If you're soo more advanced, cultured and brilliant -- why do you place your ultimate freedom and liberty in the whims of a Congress? That takes a lot of faith don't it? Especially when your side loses power..

Just like the belief in the Big Bang takes a HUGE leap of faith.. Don't pull the superior being card unless you want to be called on it...

 

[PratchettFan]

You bet I'll do as I please. Because when I see evil -- I don't accept it. I don't acquisce to it. I don't reason with it. Not even public opinion or the gun assures the rights and morals that I believe in... And the Declaration and references to God in this country's founding was a wise reminder of why we can't let that pessimistic attitude prevail..

No bible-thumping or fire/brimstone required here to defend the concept.

Exactly. You can do as you please because you live in a country where we let you. If you lived in Iran, then you could not do as you please. And God would not be interceding on your behalf.

The Natural Rights that the Founders evoked were clearly spelled out in the Declaration. YOU are not LETTING ME defend my rights.

Iran is a country where dissidents also exist. They must not only battle with political power but argue with a tyrannical religious structure. Similiar to the arrogant religious structures that the Founders fled from.. I guarantee you,, there are Iranian students in jail today that can recite OUR Declaration of Independence and they would defend that concept with their lives.. Which is more than I can say about a lot of my fellow 'mericans.

The Delcaration was written by man, not God. It was fought for and defended by men, not God. You retain your rights by the will of men, not God. Where that will does not exist, freedom does not exist.

 

[Barb]

A right given only by man or the created government of man could subsequently be taken away.... when you deem a right as inalienable and given by a power or authority higher than man, you are basically saying that no matter what man may do, deep down all of mankind still should have that right

Depends on what holy book you're going by, eh? E pluriblus unem, out of many, one. That was us, Us, and US, once upon a time in America.

 

[The T]

Exactly. You can do as you please because you live in a country where we let you. If you lived in Iran, then you could not do as you please. And God would not be interceding on your behalf.

The Natural Rights that the Founders evoked were clearly spelled out in the Declaration. YOU are not LETTING ME defend my rights.

Iran is a country where dissidents also exist. They must not only battle with political power but argue with a tyrannical religious structure. Similiar to the arrogant religious structures that the Founders fled from.. I guarantee you,, there are Iranian students in jail today that can recite OUR Declaration of Independence and they would defend that concept with their lives.. Which is more than I can say about a lot of my fellow 'mericans.

The Delcaration was written by man, not God. It was fought for and defended by men, not God. You retain your rights by the will of men, not God. Where that will does not exist, freedom does not exist.

But they wrote about God...Defended god...George Washington and the Founders made a Covenant WITH God...

Acknowledged in the Declaration...Codified with the passage of the Constitution...

Acknowledged again BY George Washington on the day of his Inauguration in New York City on the very property where the Twin Towers stood.

YOU aren't good at this. I suggest you stop embarassing yourself.

 

[flacaltenn]

Exactly. You can do as you please because you live in a country where we let you. If you lived in Iran, then you could not do as you please. And God would not be interceding on your behalf.

The Natural Rights that the Founders evoked were clearly spelled out in the Declaration. YOU are not LETTING ME defend my rights.

Iran is a country where dissidents also exist. They must not only battle with political power but argue with a tyrannical religious structure. Similiar to the arrogant religious structures that the Founders fled from.. I guarantee you,, there are Iranian students in jail today that can recite OUR Declaration of Independence and they would defend that concept with their lives.. Which is more than I can say about a lot of my fellow 'mericans.

The Delcaration was written by man, not God. It was fought for and defended by men, not God. You retain your rights by the will of men, not God. Where that will does not exist, freedom does not exist.

That's not what the Declaration says.. So you're whining to the contrary doesn't matter does it? The document was inspired by a realization of the failings of governance by men. It was intended to HUMBLE power and authority into treading gently on liberty.
Brilliant and timeless.. And actually -- not at all religious.. Even an atheist could evoke Natural Rights as a basis for civil disobedience.