God given rights?

[Avatar4321]

When you're sitting in a concentration camp and experiencing the failings of the "laws of men" --- tell me who YOU are gonna appeal to for your rights....

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

Sure He does. He certainly intervened a lot during the American Revolution. Ive already pointed out some real events where He was active. If it wasnt for the Hand of Divine Providence Washington and the army would have been crushed within months. The Founders certainly recognized and thanked God for his merciful intervention in the cause of their liberty.

The problem is too many people expect to just ask with out taking any effort on their own. They think talking with God is like ordering a pizza. They say what they want and they expect Him to deliver it with no effort on their part. That's not how God works. It never has been.

A covenant relationship requires action, thought, effort on our part. Not to "save" ourselves. But the preparation to let God work through us is something people completely neglect.

Instead of humbling ourselves, we act with pride. Instead of being grateful, we are covetous. Instead of being honest, we lie when it suits us.

God is bound when we do what He says. He has to bless us with the promises He has promised. But when we dont do what He says we have no promise.

 

[PratchettFan]

When you're sitting in a concentration camp and experiencing the failings of the "laws of men" --- tell me who YOU are gonna appeal to for your rights....

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

That's a pissy view of where your rights come from.. First we're told by the Atheists that they come from elite political leadership and now you tell us they come from our neighbors. We know that's not true.. Largely because we write down our beliefs, our morals and our conscience, atheists just make this stuff up by asking their "neighbors".

If MLK believed that -- he probably wouldn't have tried..

What MLK did was organize people to change the minds of other people. All of the prayers to God made not a whit of difference.

If your neighbors don't think you have a right to your home, they can come over, put a bullet behind your ear and take it. That has been happening since the beginning of human history and never once has God intervened to stop it. If you get robbed, you don't call God. You call the police. The police operate under the authority of the law. The law exists because men create it. If your neighbors decide it is legal to rob, beat and kill you - then that is what will happen no matter how hard you pray.

 

[PratchettFan]

When you're sitting in a concentration camp and experiencing the failings of the "laws of men" --- tell me who YOU are gonna appeal to for your rights....

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

Sure He does. He certainly intervened a lot during the American Revolution. Ive already pointed out some real events where He was active. If it wasnt for the Hand of Divine Providence Washington and the army would have been crushed within months. The Founders certainly recognized and thanked God for his merciful intervention in the cause of their liberty.

The problem is too many people expect to just ask with out taking any effort on their own. They think talking with God is like ordering a pizza. They say what they want and they expect Him to deliver it with no effort on their part. That's not how God works. It never has been.

A covenant relationship requires action, thought, effort on our part. Not to "save" ourselves. But the preparation to let God work through us is something people completely neglect.

Instead of humbling ourselves, we act with pride. Instead of being grateful, we are covetous. Instead of being honest, we lie when it suits us.

God is bound when we do what He says. He has to bless us with the promises He has promised. But when we dont do what He says we have no promise.

Nonsense. What got us through was a long supply line on the part of the British and a large area to patrol. Not to mention they were fighting against what they saw was their own people. Human beings won that conflict, just as other human beings lost it. God was not on either side. God does not intervene.

 

[The Infidel]

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we tolerate a system that denies people lifesaving medications and treatments?

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we that deny that same life to unborn babies?

 

[The T]

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we tolerate a system that denies people lifesaving medications and treatments?

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we that deny that same life to unborn babies?

Life, Liberty, Persuit of happiness (property)...ODD isn't it that LIFE tops the list in the Declaration?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we tolerate a system that denies people lifesaving medications and treatments?

Because the "god" they believe only grants "rights" to those who don't need them. As we've seen here, rw's don't care about sick or hungry children, the elderly, their fellow Americans.

The phrase, "god given rights" is infuriating to anyone who has fought for our rights, or for anyone who has lost a loved one in that fight for our rights.

Doesn't matter which god you believe, he or she is absent is absent from battle fields. Don't bother looking for your god in the pediatric departments of hospitals either.

Check out the quote in my signature and then look for the "Christians" on this forum.

 

[The Infidel]

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

Sure He does. He certainly intervened a lot during the American Revolution. Ive already pointed out some real events where He was active. If it wasnt for the Hand of Divine Providence Washington and the army would have been crushed within months. The Founders certainly recognized and thanked God for his merciful intervention in the cause of their liberty.

The problem is too many people expect to just ask with out taking any effort on their own. They think talking with God is like ordering a pizza. They say what they want and they expect Him to deliver it with no effort on their part. That's not how God works. It never has been.

A covenant relationship requires action, thought, effort on our part. Not to "save" ourselves. But the preparation to let God work through us is something people completely neglect.

Instead of humbling ourselves, we act with pride. Instead of being grateful, we are covetous. Instead of being honest, we lie when it suits us.

God is bound when we do what He says. He has to bless us with the promises He has promised. But when we dont do what He says we have no promise.

Nonsense. What got us through was a long supply line on the part of the British and a large area to patrol. Not to mention they were fighting against what they saw was their own people. Human beings won that conflict, just as other human beings lost it. God was not on either side. God does not intervene.

Can you prove God does not intervene ?

 

[PratchettFan]

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we tolerate a system that denies people lifesaving medications and treatments?

If Americans believe in an inalienable right to life, how can we that deny that same life to unborn babies?

If Americans believe in personal freedom, how can they deny a woman's right to control her own body?

 

[GuyPinestra]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments. That may be true but God is incredibly bad at keeping those rights for his people and never once has he intervened, personally, to lend a hand. It has always been our job to raise the armies, take the casualties and shoulder the burden while God sits idly by without even a muted cheer.

Even the founders knew better. The declaration states that, "to secure these rights governments are instituted among men". I guess there is no need for those first ten amendments to the constitution either. With god on our side who the hell needs a Bill of Rights?

Being an atheist god and I have a tenuous relationship and if Ryan does not mind I prefer a rule of law to a theocracy.

Ryan is here

Paul Ryan: Repeal health law because rights come from God | The Raw Story

The declaration is here. (Although our patriotic and learned rightwingnuts should have no need of verification. This holy text should be burned into their memory if not their soul)

Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

You must've failed comprehensive reading. Here is the sentence right before the one you quoted...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm not truely religious, but I stand by the concepts of Natural Rights and respect people of faith..

The most moving and passionate defense of the phrasing in the Declaration of Indepence was made by Alan Keyes when he tore atheist Alan Dershowitz up (IMHO) in a debate on faith..

Here's what Keyes said about the Declaration phrasing invoking a higher power for our claim to human rights..

Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz debate :: Alan Keyes Archives



Let us assume for the moment that all the Jefferson-is-atheist
people are correct. See? If Jefferson didn't acquiesce in the
reference to the Creator because he thought it was true, maybe he
did it because he thought it was necessary. Necessary for what?
Necessary in order to complete the argument that constrains human
power. Necessary in order to establish a ground so that the weak
and the defenseless, so that those with no power, those with no
eloquence, those with no case to be made by their money or their
status or anything else about them would be able to stand in the
face of every human power whatsoever and demand respect for their
human rights and dignity. Do we think that that comes about
[applause] . . . do we think that comes about because Alan
Dershowitz feels like it today, or Alan Keyes feels like it
today? No.

And they understood one principle, a little bit cynical perhaps,
but nonetheless verified by much of human history, that "power
ultimately only respects a greater power." Isn't that sad? Power
cannot be relied upon to respect greater wisdom. That's why
Plato, though he would have loved it, to have philosophers kings,
understand they probably wouldn't end up that way. [chuckle] Oh,
no. Power doesn't necessarily respect greater wisdom. It doesn't
necessarily respect greater holiness. It doesn't necessarily
respect all these things. Sometimes it does. Sometimes the Pope
will come out of Rome talk Atilla out of sacking the place or
whatever, but a lot of times it won't work. When people die in
their rape and whole civilizations are destroyed, so that the
smoking ruins left behind are today called deserts --that's what
the Monguls did in great parts of the world. So, power doesn't
necessarily respect this except to say, "How can you come up with
something that might be a little more reliable than that?"
I think the aim of the Founders was that at least to invoke a
paradigm that offered a surer foundation for our appeals to
conscience. What better logic to face power with than the notion
that, whatever power you have, I gain my dignity from the
absolute greatest power of all. The one you can't touch. The one
you cannot equal. The one that for which every human power pales
by comparison. And because I think all my dignity by virtue of
that greater power, even on the day you defeat me, even on the
day you put foot upon my neck and trample me into the dust, I
still live in the hope that my justice will rise because you
cannot defeat His will. [applause]

To paraphrase James Carville -- It's the POWER stupid. The Founders wanted to state unequivocably that whatever POWER they were instituting in the documents was HUMBLED by the notion that it was given in recognition of a HIGHER more objective standard..

It's beautiful -- it doesn't require religious dogma to believe in -- and this concept NEEDS to be MAINTAINED in our governance..

 

[Meister]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

 

[BreezeWood]

Senator Paul Ryan. Senator, GOP leader, writer of budgets.

In this little interview he says rights come from god and are not given by governments.

Paul Ryan: “We’re going to repeal the entire law and then we’re going to advance patient-centered reforms that address these kinds of issues,” the Wisconsin Republican said.

if they were God given, what reforms is he talking about for these kind of issues ...

notably the Republicans for the last 3.5 years have not tabled a single proposal of their own.

 

[flacaltenn]

At that point, you can appeal to God. Appeal and appeal and appeal. However, it takes very little perusal of history to find that does no good at all. God does not intervene.

All of your "rights" exist only so long as your neighbors agree they exist. It isn't any God which bestows them upon you, it is the society in which you live which does. As it can bestow, it can remove. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply is not paying attention.

That's a pissy view of where your rights come from.. First we're told by the Atheists that they come from elite political leadership and now you tell us they come from our neighbors. We know that's not true.. Largely because we write down our beliefs, our morals and our conscience, atheists just make this stuff up by asking their "neighbors".

If MLK believed that -- he probably wouldn't have tried..

What MLK did was organize people to change the minds of other people. All of the prayers to God made not a whit of difference.

If your neighbors don't think you have a right to your home, they can come over, put a bullet behind your ear and take it. That has been happening since the beginning of human history and never once has God intervened to stop it. If you get robbed, you don't call God. You call the police. The police operate under the authority of the law. The law exists because men create it. If your neighbors decide it is legal to rob, beat and kill you - then that is what will happen no matter how hard you pray.

No.. See the Alan Keyes quotes in my last post above for what what happens when POWER to rob, beat and kill me has it's boot on my neck.. You don't DEFEAT righteousness and moral superiority with power. And perhaps -- had you been in Selma with MLK -- those prayers to a higher authority than the law might have done YOU some good in that cause as well...

You're simply a defeatist who believes in capitulation in the face of evil...

Reminds me why I'll NEVER march with you in any civil disobedience cause...

 

[Moonglow]

The statement that is in the OP was written at a time in history when Monarchies and the aristocratcs,the nobles, bishops, popes all had control of your life by feiftoms or economic and religious peer pressure societies which said you are not free to do as you like, even mooch. Sound rather conservative, doesn't it?
But none the less the age of enlightenment led to the age of revolution which man and womens wombs, sought to exist in a new way, one without the burden of religion or economic suppression. but the saying mow is being used to try and get the USA as a Christian nation, next you will hear how the Congress of old authorized the printing of the Bible to prove that the USA is a Christian nation only, and that seperation of church and state was something made up later by anti- christian groups.

 

[The T]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

How about the story of St. Paul's Epicopal Church in New York City that was saved by a sycamore tree in the 9/11 attacks?

St. paul's is where George Washington attended services in the days when NYC was the Capitol Of The United States before DC was built.

Washington on the day of his inaguration attended services there and proclaimed the covenant betwenn God and the new Republic that fought and won it's freedom in the name of God as proclaimed in the Declaration.

 

[PratchettFan]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

Yes. That was Andersonville in GA. I am certain the fact that it was built in a swamp had nothing at all to do with a spring opening up.

 

[The Infidel]

Because the "god" they believe only grants "rights" to those who don't need them. As we've seen here, rw's don't care about sick or hungry children, the elderly, their fellow Americans.

If the BS is true, why is it that charitable giving is dominated by christian conservatives. Its a documented fact con$ donate more that lib$


The phrase, "god given rights" is infuriating to anyone who has fought for our rights, or for anyone who has lost a loved one in that fight for our rights.


Man certainly did not give us those rights... and for your information, I know plenty of christian soldier.

Doesn't matter which god you believe, he or she is absent is absent from battle fields. Don't bother looking for your god in the pediatric departments of hospitals either.

You tell a soldier who is fighting in a foxhole God does not exist.. he might stop praying long enough to punch you in the mouth or maybe not.
My wife works in the labor and delivery dept (RN) and she sees miracles every day at work... sure there are tragedies, but they are far and few between.


Check out the quote in my signature and then look for the "Christians" on this forum.

 

[The Infidel]

Actually. God was quite active in preserving the Revolutionaries during the war. There were Miracles at the Battles of Boston, Long Island, Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown (just to mention some of the biggest battles). Without the intervention of Divine Providence, the Continental army would have been crushed the First few months.

What people fail to realize is that God will only intervene if we keep our end of the covenant with Him. If we are Proud, dishonest, corrupt, apathetic, and violate His commands and counsels, we have no promise for His intervention. If we live ungodly lives, we are going to be brought into bondage. It's the truth that sets us free. It's by living the Truth that we can obtain the promises God has made to us.

During the Civil War, the Confederates POW camp experienced an act of God when the stream which fed through the prison had dried up and a spring appeared in the middle of the camp, which they named Providence Spring. I bet there was a lot of prayers answered during that period of time.

How about the story of St. Paul's Epicopal Church in New York City that was saved by a sycamore tree in the 9/11 attacks?

St. paul's is where George Washington attended services in the days when NYC was the Capitol Of The United States before DC was built.

Washington on the day of his inaguration attended services there and proclaimed the covenant betwenn God and the new Republic that fought and won it's freedom in the name of God as proclaimed in the Declaration.

The Harbinger: The Ancient Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future [Book]

 

[PratchettFan]

That's a pissy view of where your rights come from.. First we're told by the Atheists that they come from elite political leadership and now you tell us they come from our neighbors. We know that's not true.. Largely because we write down our beliefs, our morals and our conscience, atheists just make this stuff up by asking their "neighbors".

If MLK believed that -- he probably wouldn't have tried..

What MLK did was organize people to change the minds of other people. All of the prayers to God made not a whit of difference.

If your neighbors don't think you have a right to your home, they can come over, put a bullet behind your ear and take it. That has been happening since the beginning of human history and never once has God intervened to stop it. If you get robbed, you don't call God. You call the police. The police operate under the authority of the law. The law exists because men create it. If your neighbors decide it is legal to rob, beat and kill you - then that is what will happen no matter how hard you pray.

No.. See Alan Keyes above for what what happens when POWER to rob, beat and kill me has it's boot on my neck.. You don't DEFEAT righteousness and moral superiority with power. And perhaps -- had you been in Selma with MLK -- those prayers to a higher authority than the law might have done YOU some good in that cause as well...

You're simply a defeatist who believes in capitulation in the face of evil...

The only way you do it is with power. If not the power of the gun, the power of public opinion. Without either, you lose. But you believe as you please. People have died fighting evil so that you can think they had nothing to do with it.

 

[Katzndogz]

This country was founded on the principle of God given rights. If there are no God given rights, then just dissolve the country right now, it has no more reason to exist than cotton candy.