Global Warming is real, but not primarily man-made

[Big Fitz]

Damn you two, Buried my well thought out response under pages of arguing LOL

WOOT!

SUccess!

 

[antagon]

the sun contributes most to warming of ocean temps. by far.

Absolutely false. The ocean is warmed by the earth first, atmosphere and solar radiation are second and third tho none of us knows the exact order until we have further data.

The earth is a several thousand degree hot rock that is actually touching the ocean along a large surface area, whereas the sun is a much hotter rock 108 million miles away and most of the suns' energy never reaches the surface of the earth because the atmosphere gets first access to that energy.

3700 x the energy comes from the sun than comes from geothermal sources. talk about absolutely false.

 

[code1211]

Absolutely false. The ocean is warmed by the earth first, atmosphere and solar radiation are second and third tho none of us knows the exact order until we have further data.

The earth is a several thousand degree hot rock that is actually touching the ocean along a large surface area, whereas the sun is a much hotter rock 108 million miles away and most of the suns' energy never reaches the surface of the earth because the atmosphere gets first access to that energy.

Wow!

 

[antagon]

the atmosphere cant leverage heat transfer on water. 1000:1 the effect will go the other way.

It doesn't make any difference if water transfers heat into the atmosphere 1000 times more readily, what matters is which is warmer, the ocean or the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is warmer than it will heat the oceans, period.

Heat transfer works two ways: a cold window can radiate cold just as readily as a hot window can radiate heat. In fact a window always does both at once. IF there is a temp differential between inside and outside.

Which brings us back to which is warmer the mean ocean surface temp or the mean surface atmosphere temp?

no. what matters is the amount of energy. this is what allows a pot of hot water to heat a whole room of air.

see "sensible heat". basic thermal dynamics.

 

[editec]

If one believes that solar activity is the root cause of the increasing global warming, then one ought to be able to indentify (and quantify) the change in solar activity.

Have such changes in solar activity that can explain such change in the gloabl temperature been identified?

If one believes that the cause is geothermic activity, then one ought to be able to show us that increased activity, too.

Has it been identifed?

 

[antagon]

false. water does not give away heat readily. few other substances can hold heat like water. few others wick heat like water.

Actually you are deeply confused on this point.

NOTHING gives away heat as well as water, at least no common material. And there is a VERY simple way that you can prove this to yourself.

Stick your hand into an oven that is heated to 212 degrees

then stick your hand into water heated to boiling

then pick up a piece of aluminum, copper and then steel all heated to the exact same temp.

In order you will receive the worse burn by far from the water, then the copper, aluminum, steel and the oven won't even phase you.

Water gives away heat AND absorbs heat with EXACTLY the same efficiency.

Which is why water is the premium liquid to use in your truck's cooling system. It absorbs heat from the engine faster than anything else and releases that heat thru the radiator faster than anything else. If you add antifreeze to the system that efficiency drops, but the water won't corrode your engine or freeze.

this is relative sensible heat. giving away heat is not an accurate way of looking at heat transfer between materials. sensible heat looks at the amount of energy required to raise the temp of a substance and is perfectly inverse to the amount of energy absorption required to cool it. the extra heat you experience with the hand in the boiling water is the sensible heat leverage of water... the greater energy which it releases.

there is more energy in every temperature degree of water than there is in most other substances.

 

[antagon]

I am curious why you mentioned thermodynamics since heat transfer is not an energy conversion and therefore not covered by the laws of thermodynamics.

It is covered by the conservation of energy principle.

heat transfer is part of thermal dynamics. the first two laws of thermal dynamics relate to heat transfer.

i'm curious if you've ever studied thermal dynamics formally or extensively on your own.

 

[antagon]

~174,000,000,000,000,000joules from the sun constantly bombard the planet. 47,000,000,000,000joules come from geothermal sources. the sun contributes 3700 x the energy than the earth does.

You better prove that because I absolutely can not imagine it is true.

from wiki on the solar constant:

The solar constant includes all types of solar radiation, not just the visible light. It is measured by satellite to be roughly 1.366 kilowatts per square meter (kW/m²)..... Thus, for the whole Earth (which has a cross section of 127,400,000 km²), the power is 1.740×1017 W, plus or minus 3.5%.

Solar constant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and from a geothermal study:

The mean heat flows of continents and oceans are 65 and 101 mW m−2, respectively, which when areally weighted yield a global mean of 87 mW m−2 and a global heat loss of 44.2 × 1012 W, an increase of some 4–8% over earlier estimates.

Heat flow from the Earth's interior: Analysis of the global data set

i dont have the satellites or the testing sites to prove the figures i've used, but i trust these resources. 3700 times the energy is a significant defeat for your imagined perspective. half that would be significant.

As per water you seem to have a remarkably strong attachment to a complete misunderstanding of how water reacts with heat.

maybe the misunderstanding is on your part. i think you are confused about the significance of water's high latent and sensitive heat. this is the point that i have been harping on with respect to water's 'leverage' over other materials. check out these terms; holla back.

 

[loosecannon]

People are more than 70% water, you tool.

Aside from that, animal physiology and reaction to temperature changes is vastly different from that of largely inorganic matter, like air and water....You can sit in a 190° dry sauna for a short while because your skin can evaporate water off quickly enough to maintain its cellular integrity.

Your knowledge of both meteorology and human physiology couldn't fill the cover of a matchbook.

I just posted a link asserting that sitting in a 212 degree sauna is leisurely and relaxing.

And it simply makes no difference what the human skin does with heat since the same human skin is exposed to equally warm water, metal and air in my thought experiment.

The experiment accurately gauges the thermal conductivity of the materials involved in the experiment.

But I can provide you with data if you doubt me. Thermal conductivity is the exact opposite of insulative (R) values, so there are two ways that you or I can look em up.

Dood, (mispelled in deferance to The Dude)

You need to get your facts from a source other than wiki. That site will get you killed! For your information 212 F is the temp they use for the world championships and it is not a relaxing situation! It is an endurance competition that lasts minutes and almost allways results in some form of injury.

This year there was a fatality.

Sauna World Championships

You started off OK in this thread but you have rapidly gone downhill since.

so a 60 yo guy died after sitting in a 212 degree sauna for 6 minutes.

I WIN! Thanks for the corroborating link!

 

[loosecannon]

the sun contributes most to warming of ocean temps. by far.

Absolutely false. The ocean is warmed by the earth first, atmosphere and solar radiation are second and third tho none of us knows the exact order until we have further data.

The earth is a several thousand degree hot rock that is actually touching the ocean along a large surface area, whereas the sun is a much hotter rock 108 million miles away and most of the suns' energy never reaches the surface of the earth because the atmosphere gets first access to that energy.

3700 x the energy comes from the sun than comes from geothermal sources. talk about absolutely false.

so prove it, I am anxious to see your sources and what that data really represents.

Remember a twin planet without an atmosphere in the same orbit would be stone cold whereas the earth is still a molten blob after 6 billion years. They both receive the exact same solar energy input.

 

[loosecannon]

the atmosphere cant leverage heat transfer on water. 1000:1 the effect will go the other way.

it doesn't make any difference if water transfers heat into the atmosphere 1000 times more readily, what matters is which is warmer, the ocean or the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is warmer than it will heat the oceans, period.

Heat transfer works two ways: A cold window can radiate cold just as readily as a hot window can radiate heat. In fact a window always does both at once. If there is a temp differential between inside and outside.

Which brings us back to which is warmer the mean ocean surface temp or the mean surface atmosphere temp?

no. What matters is the amount of energy. This is what allows a pot of hot water to heat a whole room of air.

See "sensible heat". Basic thermal dynamics.

fail!

 

[loosecannon]

false. water does not give away heat readily. few other substances can hold heat like water. few others wick heat like water.

Actually you are deeply confused on this point.

NOTHING gives away heat as well as water, at least no common material. And there is a VERY simple way that you can prove this to yourself.

Stick your hand into an oven that is heated to 212 degrees

then stick your hand into water heated to boiling

then pick up a piece of aluminum, copper and then steel all heated to the exact same temp.

In order you will receive the worse burn by far from the water, then the copper, aluminum, steel and the oven won't even phase you.

Water gives away heat AND absorbs heat with EXACTLY the same efficiency.

Which is why water is the premium liquid to use in your truck's cooling system. It absorbs heat from the engine faster than anything else and releases that heat thru the radiator faster than anything else. If you add antifreeze to the system that efficiency drops, but the water won't corrode your engine or freeze.

this is relative sensible heat. giving away heat is not an accurate way of looking at heat transfer between materials. sensible heat looks at the amount of energy required to raise the temp of a substance and is perfectly inverse to the amount of energy absorption required to cool it. the extra heat you experience with the hand in the boiling water is the sensible heat leverage of water... the greater energy which it releases.

there is more energy in every temperature degree of water than there is in most other substances.

But YOU were claiming that water had this unique ability to resist giving up it's heat! Now you are backtracking! Which is it?

 

[loosecannon]

I am curious why you mentioned thermodynamics since heat transfer is not an energy conversion and therefore not covered by the laws of thermodynamics.

It is covered by the conservation of energy principle.

heat transfer is part of thermal dynamics. the first two laws of thermal dynamics relate to heat transfer.

i'm curious if you've ever studied thermal dynamics formally or extensively on your own.

Heat is the inefficiency by product of energy conversions. That's what the laws of thermo dynamics assert. Heat transfer from material to material is not a conversion of energy, and is subject to 100% conservation of energy.

 

[loosecannon]

~174,000,000,000,000,000joules from the sun constantly bombard the planet. 47,000,000,000,000joules come from geothermal sources. the sun contributes 3700 x the energy than the earth does.

You better prove that because I absolutely can not imagine it is true.

from wiki on the solar constant:


Solar constant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is total electromagnetic energy, everything from gamma rays to light across the whole electromagnetic spectrum.

Much of, perhaps most of that isn't heat and won't convert to heat. Much of that also never reaches the surface of the earth. Whereas all of the heat that the earth loses passes thru the oceans and the atmosphere.

Apples and oranges.

As per water you seem to have a remarkably strong attachment to a complete misunderstanding of how water reacts with heat.

maybe the misunderstanding is on your part. i think you are confused about the significance of water's high latent and sensitive heat. this is the point that i have been harping on with respect to water's 'leverage' over other materials. check out these terms; holla back.

 

[loosecannon]

maybe the misunderstanding is on your part. i think you are confused about the significance of water's high latent and sensitive heat. this is the point that i have been harping on with respect to water's 'leverage' over other materials. check out these terms; holla back.

I know what latent heat in water is, I described it to you several pages ago, but I can't find any web reference to sensitive heat.

Regardless of that I can't figure out what your point is regarding warming because you keep changing your assertions.

 

[westwall]

I just posted a link asserting that sitting in a 212 degree sauna is leisurely and relaxing.

And it simply makes no difference what the human skin does with heat since the same human skin is exposed to equally warm water, metal and air in my thought experiment.

The experiment accurately gauges the thermal conductivity of the materials involved in the experiment.

But I can provide you with data if you doubt me. Thermal conductivity is the exact opposite of insulative (R) values, so there are two ways that you or I can look em up.

Dood, (mispelled in deferance to The Dude)

You need to get your facts from a source other than wiki. That site will get you killed! For your information 212 F is the temp they use for the world championships and it is not a relaxing situation! It is an endurance competition that lasts minutes and almost allways results in some form of injury.

This year there was a fatality.

Sauna World Championships

You started off OK in this thread but you have rapidly gone downhill since.

so a 60 yo guy died after sitting in a 212 degree sauna for 6 minutes.

I WIN! Thanks for the corroborating link!

Yes you certainly "win" if you think dying is relaxing. Epic fail dood, epic fail.

 

[antagon]

Actually you are deeply confused on this point.

NOTHING gives away heat as well as water, at least no common material. And there is a VERY simple way that you can prove this to yourself.

Stick your hand into an oven that is heated to 212 degrees

then stick your hand into water heated to boiling

then pick up a piece of aluminum, copper and then steel all heated to the exact same temp.

In order you will receive the worse burn by far from the water, then the copper, aluminum, steel and the oven won't even phase you.

Water gives away heat AND absorbs heat with EXACTLY the same efficiency.

Which is why water is the premium liquid to use in your truck's cooling system. It absorbs heat from the engine faster than anything else and releases that heat thru the radiator faster than anything else. If you add antifreeze to the system that efficiency drops, but the water won't corrode your engine or freeze.

this is relative sensible heat. giving away heat is not an accurate way of looking at heat transfer between materials. sensible heat looks at the amount of energy required to raise the temp of a substance and is perfectly inverse to the amount of energy absorption required to cool it. the extra heat you experience with the hand in the boiling water is the sensible heat leverage of water... the greater energy which it releases.

there is more energy in every temperature degree of water than there is in most other substances.

But YOU were claiming that water had this unique ability to resist giving up it's heat! Now you are backtracking! Which is it?

water does not give up ITS heat easily, but it does heat other shit easily. this is the 1000:1 factor which i've been harping on. it is the ratio between two medium's sensible heat. sensible heat being the amount of energy required to change a medium's temp, leverages water's substantially against air, a mostly nitrogen solution. this means that for air and water to reach equilibrium, the (usually) warmer water will exert more energy than, say, CO2 or lead even. the implications are that it will require more air (via flux) and time to heat the same amount of water, more heat (energy) is stored in the same temperature of the same amount of water than air or lead, and that water can absorb and donate more heat (energy) with less change in its own temperature than virtually anything else.

 

[antagon]

maybe the misunderstanding is on your part. i think you are confused about the significance of water's high latent and sensitive heat. this is the point that i have been harping on with respect to water's 'leverage' over other materials. check out these terms; holla back.

I know what latent heat in water is, I described it to you several pages ago, but I can't find any web reference to sensitive heat.

Regardless of that I can't figure out what your point is regarding warming because you keep changing your assertions.

i'm a drunkass. sensible heat not sensitive. here: Sensible heat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

understand that and you will understand that my assertions are consistent.

 

[antagon]

I am curious why you mentioned thermodynamics since heat transfer is not an energy conversion and therefore not covered by the laws of thermodynamics.

It is covered by the conservation of energy principle.

heat transfer is part of thermal dynamics. the first two laws of thermal dynamics relate to heat transfer.

i'm curious if you've ever studied thermal dynamics formally or extensively on your own.

Heat is the inefficiency by product of energy conversions. That's what the laws of thermo dynamics assert. Heat transfer from material to material is not a conversion of energy, and is subject to 100% conservation of energy.

heat transfer is included, trust me. see 'gibbs functions' to appreciate the kinetic energy implications of heat transfer which effect temperature in the first place.

 

[loosecannon]

Yes you certainly "win" if you think dying is relaxing. Epic fail dood, epic fail.

You are not following the thread.

My point was that sticking your arm into a 212 degree oven wouldn't phase you. Whereas sticking your hand into 212 degree water would almost immediately peel the skin off your arm.

I win, thanks for playing.