Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

[Shogun]

In a manner of speaking, separation does exist. According to the Bill of Rights, the congress does not have the right to interfere with the practice of your religion (apparently no matter what that practice involves).

thats simply not true.


why then arent mormons parading their polygamy? Why arent pentecostals allowed to wave rattlesnakes at kids in church? Why do we enforce statutory rape laws against sects that match creepy old dudes with virginal 13 year olds in religious ceremony?

 

[mattskramer]

bullshit. Freedom of religion from the first amendment doesn't allow murder.


the first amendment is not going to allow some nutty fucking muslim to blow up civilians just because some goofy islamic douchebag thinks that its a tennant of his religion.

Do we allow christians to blow up abortion clinics in the name of their religious freedom?

no.

Where is such an exception stated in the Bill of Rights? What if my religion called only for prayer in the treatment of an ill person? Could it be argued that the first amendment condones neglect?

 

[Shogun]

Where is such an exception stated in the Bill of Rights? What if my religion called only for prayer in the treatment of an ill person? Could it be argued that the first amendment condones neglect?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



The federal first amendment doesn't usurp a state statute on neglect on the fallacious assumption that praying is medicine.


Are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think that the first amendment mandates that we allow suicide/abortion clinic bombing as long as some nutter claims that it is a facet of their dogma?


Again, WHY aren't snakebite Pentecostals and polygamous mormons in the supreme court by now?

 

[Paulie]

would you remove three living babies from a pair of jahovas witness after they let two from a set of sextuplets die?

Babies seized after Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood for sextuplets
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1426576.ece


B.C. intervened to save 3 sextuplets after 2 died
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/01/31/bc-sextuplets.html


listen.. im all for religious freedom. Im all for the maximin liberty allowed by the constitution. But i'm just not buying some hokey bullshit about religious tolerance when kids have to die to fulfill the dogma of their parents. What other personal philosophical ideal allows a parent to neglect their kid to death without the state making a visit? This isn't about doctors versus midwives. But, if a diabetic kid dies from neglect due to parents who think prayer works better than insulin then the parents must be held accountable.

Well, please don't confuse my argument with RGS'. He's arguing that these people have "religious freedom" to let their kids die. I'm merely arguing that a parent should be free to choose their own REASONABLE, PHYSICAL remedy to heal themselves and their children. Prayer is not a reasonable physical remedy. It's just HOPE, and hope ain't curing anything, barring a coincidental miracle. I remedy myself all the time at home with natural methods. No, I don't pray to the ghost in the sky. I have a few books that contain documented and proven ways to naturally cure certain illnesses. Many of them work wonders, and I never had to subject myself to pharmaceuticals that have side effects worse than what I'm originally trying to treat. I'll be using those same remedies for my son as he gets older as well, and I'll be god damned (pun intended) if idiots like these people we're discussing are going to ruin that for me by contributing to YET ANOTHER law prohibiting my freedom to make my own responsible choice.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I'm not anti-doctor. If a problem persists and my home remedies obviously aren't doing the trick, then I certainly won't hesitate to see a doctor.

 

[AllieBaba]

According to a cold literal wording of the first amendment, you are allowed to do those things.

Only if they don't violate the rights of others.

 

[Shogun]

Well, please don't confuse my argument with RGS'. He's arguing that these people have "religious freedom" to let their kids die. I'm merely arguing that a parent should be free to choose their own REASONABLE, PHYSICAL remedy to heal themselves and their children. Prayer is not a reasonable physical remedy. It's just HOPE, and hope ain't curing anything, barring a coincidental miracle. I remedy myself all the time at home with natural methods. No, I don't pray to the ghost in the sky. I have a few books that contain documented and proven ways to naturally cure certain illnesses. Many of them work wonders, and I never had to subject myself to pharmaceuticals that have side effects worse than what I'm originally trying to treat. I'll be using those same remedies for my son as he gets older as well, and I'll be god damned (pun intended) if idiots like these people we're discussing are going to ruin that for me by contributing to YET ANOTHER law prohibiting my freedom to make my own responsible choice.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I'm not anti-doctor. If a problem persists and my home remedies obviously aren't doing the trick, then I certainly won't hesitate to see a doctor.

fair enough. I apologize for raking you through the same coals.

But, im also not really a fan of the holistic medicine either. I'm not suggesting we all find a pet RLS-type (restless leg syndrome) excuse to give phizer money.. But, diabetes is not a disease that just goes away by wearing copper bracelets and magnets.

I argued the complete opposite regarding the kid who personally chose not to undergo chemo. He made his own decision. Clearly, above, the girl died so her parents could feel like they were being faithful.

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually, I'm waiting to hear more on this. THere could be a couple of things going on.

They may not have realized how ill she was. Sometimes kidney failure can come on very quickly, and take people by surprise.

They may not be altogether there mentally, which may have added to their inability to see the severity of the illness.

This doesn't sound like a religion thing to me. It sounds like a matter of either diminished capacity of the parents, or an insipid and deadly illness that just wasn't recognized as such.

We had a client who sneaked tylenol into her room at a group home once. (Mercifully after I had left. If I had been there, it wouldn't have happened, but that's another story). She had a variety of issues, and wasn't feeling well, so she just kept taking her tylenol that she had brought back with her after a home visit.

One morning she said she felt a little ill so she went to bed early. She was always a late riser, but by noon the staff tried to wake her, and couldn't.

She died within days of liver failure.

Sometimes these things happen, and it's hard to judge from the outside. It's not always somebody's fault. Sometimes we just miss things.

 

[Paulie]

They may not be altogether there mentally, which may have added to their inability to see the severity of the illness.

As far as I'm concerned, this goes hand in hand with attempting to pray an illness away.

Someone who is not religious would not be making this attempt, as they already wouldn't believe in it's potential ability.

This is a perfect example of religion clouding judgment.

 

[Paulie]

But, im also not really a fan of the holistic medicine either. I'm not suggesting we all find a pet RLS-type (restless leg syndrome) excuse to give phizer money.. But, diabetes is not a disease that just goes away by wearing copper bracelets and magnets.

Lol, indeed. I for one don't consider copper and magnets to be a reasonable attempt. I mean, you might as well just pray.

 

[BrianH]

It's a shame that this little girl had to die, but they have the right to do whatever the hell they want to do. Is their a law that states that you must seek medical treatment?

 

[AllieBaba]

As far as I'm concerned, this goes hand in hand with attempting to pray an illness away.

Someone who is not religious would not be making this attempt, as they already wouldn't believe in it's potential ability.

This is a perfect example of religion clouding judgment.

How do you know? Maybe they thought she had a cold, and were praying for a quick recovery.

I pray for people with illnesses every day. My judgment is just fine, thanks. And it doesn't mean I deny children access to medical care, either.

But hey, you want to jump on a band wagon before you have the facts, go right ahead. You may look more stupid than usual, however, when more information comes to light. I prefer to wait before I judge people.

 

[Paulie]

How do you know? Maybe they thought she had a cold, and were praying for a quick recovery.

I pray for people with illnesses every day. My judgment is just fine, thanks. And it doesn't mean I deny children access to medical care, either.

But hey, you want to jump on a band wagon before you have the facts, go right ahead. You may look more stupid than usual, however, when more information comes to light. I prefer to wait before I judge people.

I haven't jumped to any conclusions and my posts in this thread so far will show that. I even called out the lack of complete information in this case earlier in the thread myself.

Someone who isn't religious, especially atheists and agnostics, wouldn't even be praying to begin with. Not that I'm saying they are better people, but at least they would skip over hoping for a miracle, and move right into taking some kind of action. In my case, that would be trying a home remedy first, and if things don't get better, I'll try the doctor out.

"more stupid than usual"...

Says the idiot who thinks recessions are only a wet dream of liberals, and that they haven't happened in the past 20 years, even currently.

Yes, you're the veritable judge on level of stupidity there, baba.

 

[AllieBaba]

Prayer is action.

I know plenty of people who have no faith who are morons when it comes to treating/diagnosing/recognizing illness or any other danger signals in their kids.

The assumption that people who pray are reluctant to act is bigotry, pure and simple.

 

[Paulie]

Prayer is action.

I know plenty of people who have no faith who are morons when it comes to treating/diagnosing/recognizing illness or any other danger signals in their kids.

The assumption that people who pray are reluctant to act is bigotry, pure and simple.

I assumed nothing.

 

[AllieBaba]

"Someone who isn't religious, especially atheists and agnostics, wouldn't even be praying to begin with. Not that I'm saying they are better people, but at least they would skip over hoping for a miracle, and move right into taking some kind of action. In my case, that would be trying a home remedy first, and if things don't get better, I'll try the doctor out."

Sounds like an assumption to me. And a bigoted one.

A home remedy....what if you tried the home remedy (like using mayonnaise to control lice. Some day I'll share a story about that. Or treating ear infections with ear cones. Yay!) and then your child died? How is that different than trying prayer, and having a child die?

 

[Diuretic]

It's a shame that this little girl had to die, but they have the right to do whatever the hell they want to do. Is their a law that states that you must seek medical treatment?

They have a right to what? To let her die? So, their alleged right (which is licence really) to do whatever the hell they want to do trumps her right to be afforded competent medical treatment?

You might want to reflect on your views.

 

[Diuretic]

Prayer is action.

I know plenty of people who have no faith who are morons when it comes to treating/diagnosing/recognizing illness or any other danger signals in their kids.

The assumption that people who pray are reluctant to act is bigotry, pure and simple.

Prayer is action? Come on, you can't be serious.

 

[AllieBaba]

They have the right to pray for their child.

And sometimes people make mistakes about the seriousness of an illness, and that isn't a crime.

I'm telling you, kidney failure happens quickly and it takes people by surprise. Wait to hear more before you pass judgment. Maybe they are ignorant yahoos, but maybe they didn't realize how serious it was.

 

[BrianH]

They have a right to what? To let her die? So, their alleged right (which is licence really) to do whatever the hell they want to do trumps her right to be afforded competent medical treatment?

You might want to reflect on your views.

Ok, I would take my kid to recieve medical treatment, but who am I to tell that person to do the same? I can't tell that person to spank their kids because I think they should. The government tell them to practice a certain religion can they? Is there a law that says you must seek medical treatment?

All I am saying, is that if they're religion require that they not seek medical assistance, that's their business. It's the same concept of religions that want to have their kids naturally at home, and not at a hospital. Some religions believe that if you get sick and it's your time to die, than it's your time to die. They don't want man's technology to get in the way of what is naturally supposed to happen. I'm not saying that this family was that way, but if they were, who are we (or our government) to tell them that they can't do that?

 

[AllieBaba]

Prayer is action? Come on, you can't be serious.

It's more effective an action than using mayonnaise to eradicate lice, or heating a cone of paper in a child's ear to treat an ear infection. Or dosing yourself with huge amounts of vitamins that your body can't process.