Gay Conservatives?

[mattskramer]

I disagree. One does not have to be "self-hating" to be homosexual AND have possess conservative values politically. You're arguing "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."



Let's don't play semantics here. I used the correlation as an example. As far as being considered abnormal behavior, they are comparable.




There is no other party. That's like saying because I support natural conservation I should just vote Dem and forget every other conservative value I possess. It's not a black-or-white only argument.




I have mischaracterized nothing. Logically, I can see a person being Jewish and also against the level of support the US provides Israel. I don't consider that contradictory at all.

I WOULD consider it illogical for them to vote solely on that one issue.




Speaking of mischaracterization, the GOP platform doesn't include discrimination against gays. It includes not creating legislation that caters solely to aberrant sexual behavior.

I completely disagree with your last statement. We are a representative republic that is not represented by either political party. Every one of us picks and chooses the lesser of two evils, or votes one way to ensure the other party's candidate doesn't get in.

Anyone who votes for a person or party solely over one issue is the person I think needs therapy, and probably some education as well.

Wow. You are beginning to sound like me with those replies.
Few things are black-and-white.

 

[007]

Being a homosexual has nothing to do with party, and everything to do with mental illness. Stop trying to politicize it.

 

[Shogun]

Can you show me a viable source that suggests homosexuality is a mental disorder?


Is Bob Jones U more of a standard than the APA these days?




Dude, you dropped your "god hates fags" picket sign!

 

[mattskramer]

Being a homosexual has nothing to do with party, and everything to do with mental illness. Stop trying to politicize it.

Being homosexual is no mare a mental illness than is smoking or drinking beer or preferring chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream. Like we agreed, it is a choice, perhaps a choice with a genetic influence or not, but it is a choice.

 

[Shogun]

 

[Toro]

Being homosexual is no mare a mental illness than is smoking or drinking beer or preferring chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream. Like we agreed, it is a choice, perhaps a choice with a genetic influence or not, but it is a choice.

Its not a choice.

It may be a choice whether or not one has sex, but you cannot "choose" what you're attracted to.

 

[Shogun]

Its not a choice.

It may be a choice whether or not one has sex, but you cannot "choose" what you're attracted to.

exactly.

 

[mattskramer]

exactly.

I thought that we already went through this. Just as Watson was able to alter the deep seated loves and fears of a child, just as North Koreans were able to change the loyalties of American soldiers, it is possible to not only change behaviors but to change deep desires within an individual – including homosexual or heterosexual desires.

 

[Shogun]

um, no?


Remember, Pavlovs dogs were carnivours before assocating a bell with meat powder.

Lefties don't lose dexterity in their dominant hand despite being forced to write with their right hand?

You keep suggesting that a choice in whether to have sex in the first place is the same thing as a choice about sexual orientation.

Is the loyalty of American soldiers genetically pre-programmed? Watson proved that a kid can be conditioned to fear anything furry... Are kids predisposed to like cute, furry things anyway?

No, dude.. you may have accepted as much but I have yet to be given a reason to believe that homosexuality is merely a choice. Your experimentation is no rosetta stone.

 

[mattskramer]

Remember, Pavlovs dogs were carnivours before assocating a bell with meat powder.

Being that they were carnivores helped but I contend that if you could stimulate the “pleasure centers” of the dog’s brain when you feed it vegetables, you might turn a dog into an herbivore that actually likes vegetation.

Lefties don't lose dexterity in their dominant hand despite being forced to write with their right hand?

I disagree. If you take a left-handed person when he is relatively young and tie his left hand behind his back – prevent him from ever using it again – and force him to use his right hand very often every day, you can turn him into a true left-handed person after a few decades.

You keep suggesting that a choice in whether to have sex in the first place is the same thing as a choice about sexual orientation.

I do not know if sexual orientation is purely a choice or if it has a genetic component. My position is that it matters very little. It might take more effort for one to change if there is a genetic predisposition but it can be done. People might have a “fat gene” but they can diet and exercise to become thin. I hear that there is a genetic link to alcoholism. I think that such people can be conditioned to not only avoid alcohol (behavior) but also despise alcohol (emotion).

Are kids predisposed to like cute, furry things anyway?

I think that there is a genetic queue to aesthetics. I think that infants are drawn to certain things and are repulsed by other things.

 

[Toro]

I thought that we already went through this. Just as Watson was able to alter the deep seated loves and fears of a child, just as North Koreans were able to change the loyalties of American soldiers, it is possible to not only change behaviors but to change deep desires within an individual – including homosexual or heterosexual desires.

Put that to the test then.

Go find a man you're attracted to and have sex with him.

Prove it to yourself that what you are arguing is correct.

 

[mattskramer]

Put that to the test then.

Go find a man you're attracted to and have sex with him.

Prove it to yourself that what you are arguing is correct.

I was attracted to a young man years ago. We came very close to having anal sex. For one reason or another we didn’t follow through. I choose not to experiment with myself, but who knows what the future holds. If I were single and met a guy, and we has sex, and I liked it very very much each time that we met, I might become a homosexual.

 

[jillian]

I was attracted to a young man years ago. We came very close to having anal sex. For one reason or another we didn’t follow through. I choose not to experiment with myself, but who knows what the future holds. If I were single and met a guy, and we has sex, and I liked it very very much each time that we met, I might become a homosexual.

You don't *become* homosexual. What you are is predominantly heterosexual in lifestyle with some level of bisexual attraction.

It's not about picking and choosing. And, understand, it doesn't matter to me one way or another who people love as long as they're consenting adults.

 

[mattskramer]

You don't *become* homosexual. What you are is predominantly heterosexual in lifestyle with some level of bisexual attraction.

It's not about picking and choosing. And, understand, it doesn't matter to me one way or another who people love as long as they're consenting adults.

Perhaps I should have explained myself a little bit better. I didn’t mean that I would become a homosexual as if there were an (on/off) light switch. If I had more pleasurable experiences with men and less pleasurable experiences with women over time, then my bisexuality might change by degrees from…let’s say…70/30 Heterosexual to 60/40 Homosexual.

I would not call it picking and choosing but people often try new things. Then, again, some people don’t try new things. I guess that I simply consider desire and identity to be more fluid and susceptible to change given the right experiences and their associations (linkages) that people make.

 

[jillian]

Perhaps I should have explained myself a little bit better. I didn’t mean that I would become a homosexual as if there were an (on/off) light switch. If I had more pleasurable experiences with men and less pleasurable experiences with women over time, then my bisexuality might change by degrees from…let’s say…70/30 Heterosexual to 60/40 Homosexual.

I would not call it picking and choosing but people often try new things. Then, again, some people don’t try new things. I guess that I simply consider desire and identity to be more fluid and susceptible to change given the right experiences and their associations (linkages) that people make.

I think what changes is the willingness to *act* on it.

For example, I am heterosexual and have never had any interest in women, sexually. That doesn't mean I am going to be attracted to every man simply because I am attracted to men. I would still have to be attracted to a *specific* man. Let's face it, only certain people make your toes curl whether you're hetero or homosexual.

 

[DeadCanDance]

I think what changes is the willingness to *act* on it.

For example, I am heterosexual and have never had any interest in women, sexually. That doesn't mean I am going to be attracted to every man simply because I am attracted to men. I would still have to be attracted to a *specific* man. Let's face it, only certain people make your toes curl whether you're hetero or homosexual.

Case in point: you could probably never date or be attracted to a conservative republican man.

 

[jillian]

Case in point: you could probably never date or be attracted to a conservative republican man.

Well, I would see that as a character flaw. lol... but not necessarily insurmountable.

And I still love my father and brother.

 

[mattskramer]

I think what changes is the willingness to *act* on it.

For example, I am heterosexual and have never had any interest in women, sexually. That doesn't mean I am going to be attracted to every man simply because I am attracted to men. I would still have to be attracted to a *specific* man. Let's face it, only certain people make your toes curl whether you're hetero or homosexual.

I see your point. It depends on whom you seem to be attracted to. Yet, the debate that Shogun and I were having is it is possible to change your sexual orientation. My position is that it is possible with enough behaviorism and conditioning to actually change your desires.

 

[Shogun]

Being that they were carnivores helped but I contend that if you could stimulate the “pleasure centers” of the dog’s brain when you feed it vegetables, you might turn a dog into an herbivore that actually likes vegetation.

what you CONTEND and what is FACT seems to be two different things. gay kids are not having electrodes on the brain when they accept their sexuality. With enough torture I could make you think you are a sea cucumber.. but that really doesn't say anything about a widespread process beyond what you contend, does it? Gays are not monkeys pressing a button in a cage. They don't all have uplinks in the back of their neck like neo. the FACT remains that pavlovs dogs made a conditional association through classical conditioning. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, they were still meat lovers from the first day they shot out of their mamma's nether region.




I disagree. If you take a left-handed person when he is relatively young and tie his left hand behind his back – prevent him from ever using it again – and force him to use his right hand very often every day, you can turn him into a true left-handed person after a few decades.

I don't care if you disagree. Show me your evidence. It's a fact that most people who qualify as ambidextrous are lefties who have been made to write with their right hand. They DONT lose proficiency with theif left hands. If you can show me otherwise....



I do not know if sexual orientation is purely a choice or if it has a genetic component. My position is that it matters very little. It might take more effort for one to change if there is a genetic predisposition but it can be done. People might have a “fat gene” but they can diet and exercise to become thin. I hear that there is a genetic link to alcoholism. I think that such people can be conditioned to not only avoid alcohol (behavior) but also despise alcohol (emotion).



I think the premise of the "choice" you suggest is weather ot not to be ASEXUAL rather than choosing to be homosexual or hetero. If you can fathom a genetic predisposition then you are admitting to the biologic influence of sexual gender. Gay piests in the catholic church might be able to deny and be asexual... but, shall I remind you how that seems to ahve turned out?


I think that there is a genetic queue to aesthetics. I think that infants are drawn to certain things and are repulsed by other things.


which is in no way admitting that babies are born liking furry white things and isn't validating that Watson effected a predisposed characteristic, eh? ANYTHING that is paired with a negative stimuli or punishment can be conditioned... including food.

 

[jillian]

I see your point. It depends on whom you seem to be attracted to. Yet, the debate that Shogun and I were having is it is possible to change your sexual orientation. My position is that it is possible with enough behaviorism and conditioning to actually change your desires.

FWIW, the studies that have been conducted inducate that's truer (though only part of the story) with woman than with men.

I don't think one can change one's sexuality based on aversive conditioning.