CDZ From Pro-Choice to Pro-Life (what changed my mind)

[Bfgrn]

O.k., so I'm accused of hating woman because I value all human life, everyone's human rights, and human equality for all? That's what this issue comes down to for me, but this isn't about basic human rights for the pro choice crowd at all. Is it? It's about wanting the legal right to evade accountability when two people make a mistake that involves the creation of a human life. The "mistake" could have been prevented with simple personal choices that don't involve the termination of the human life created. Accuse me of whatever you like. So far, I'm a liar, a misogynist, absurd, a dictator, a wanna be lord and master, etc. Is there anything else you people would like to add to this discussion that doesn't involve insult and accusation? You don't like my position? Fair enough. I no longer agree with yours. Insult, accusation, and willful refusal to discuss this issue without hostility seems to be the modus operandi. I gave my reasons for changing my position on the issue openly. I own that position. It's mine to bear. The way this discussion is going, and how these discussions typically go, I'll not be changing back and you won't be changing either. This was never my intention to begin with. Thanks for the amicable discussion folks. Well, at least some were willing to actually discuss the issue without all the negativity. Others, not so much.

I am all for reducing abortions. And studies have proven that free access to contraceptives is the best way to do that. But the "pro life" movement is against free access to contraceptives. It reveals that reducing abortions is really not what the pro life movement is about.

Here is someone who was pro life and became pro choice.

How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement
October 29, 2012 by Libby Annehttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejo...h-in-the-pro-life-movement.html#disqus_thread



The spring of my sophomore year of college I was president of my university’s Students for Life chapter. The fall of my junior year of college I cut my ties with the pro-life movement. Five years later I have lost the last shred of faith I had in that movement. This is my story.

I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, not banning abortion, was the key to decreasing the number of abortions. Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit. I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.

My views on fetal personhood and women’s bodily autonomy have shifted since that day, but when I first started blogging a year and a half ago I was nevertheless very insistent that the pro-life movement should be taken at its word when it came to rhetoric about saving “unborn babies” from being “murdered.” I insisted that the pro-life movement wasn’t anti-woman or anti-sex, and that those who opposed abortion genuinely believed that a zygote/embryo/fetus was a person with rights in need of protection just like any other person. I believed that the pro-life movement’s actions were counterproductive, but that they were merely misinformed. I wrote a post with practical suggestions for opponents of abortion. I believed that the pro-life movement was genuine in its goals, but simply ignorant about how its goals might best be obtained.

I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”

I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.

What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled, and that you would be more effective in decreasing the number of abortions that occur if you were to side with pro-choice progressives. If this is you, please hear me out before shaking your head.

- See more at: How I Lost Faith in the Pro-Life Movement

 

[JoeMoma]

I always find it fascinating that men who can never experience the joy anguish or pain of pregnancy are obsessed with abortion? The amount of internet bandwidth that goes into this debate must astound, it may even beat Hitler or Munich references? It's so simple when all you have to do is expound on a subject that for most of us will never even be decisive. But the poor soul who has made a mistake or has accidentally become pregnant must face a world that knows what's best for you and will kill to prove it.

Abortion is the hypocrite's crutch, it requires nothing of the hypocrite, controlling the lives of another person is what they desire most, taking care of or assisting the same person is something they loathe. Empty moralizing is their trademark. A child dies every 15 seconds in the world of natural causes, do you ever hear the hypocrites mention them? And every married couple, every month aborts life, unless they attempt to conceive the potential life present, they just pretend it is something other than what it is. The same people who argue against supporting a woman's right to contraceptive medicine, gladly pay for boner medicine, I guess males matter more than women in their world, and so it goes.

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." Edward Abbey

''God Does Not Regard the Fetus as a Soul,' Conservative evangelicals didn’t always care much about abortion or contraception. The strange story of how they came to be obsessed with them.' By Jamelle Bouie

"In his book Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics, Jonathan Dudley notes that most evangelicals held far more liberal views at the time. “God does not regard the fetus as a soul no matter how far gestation has progressed,” wrote professor Bruce Waltke of Dallas Theological Seminary in a 1968 issue of Christianity Today on contraception and abortion, edited by Harold Lindsell, a then-famous champion of biblical “inerrancy.” His argument rested on the Hebrew Bible, “[A]ccording to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”"

Hobby Lobby and contraception How conservative evangelicals went from not caring about abortion and birth control to being obsessed with them.

Hm...

Is lack of proper health care legalized murder? Is collateral damage murder? Are sanctions which only kill children and the sickly murder? Is the lack of a fair wage and a place to sleep murder? If parents can be held accountable for their children after birth and society finds it acceptable to punish them, then shouldn't all those who argue against healthcare, child support, food programs, and welfare, shouldn't they too be held accountable? Is invading a sovereign nation on trumped up charges murder? Did you protest Iraq? Did you cry these crocodile tears? So called pro life may be the biggest hypocritical religious position of modern America as none of these people want to support the living, feed the hungry, stop war, or follow their own phony stance and have lots of children. None would take care all the children born except to place them into servitude and condemn them. Hypocrites all.

Why is it that men who cannot make this decision know the proper decision? Keep your religion out of other people lives.

Does pro-life include not eating and killing other life forms for surely they suffer and die at a more advanced level of life and feeling?

Each month a women, a couple, decide on whether the cells, the potential person cells are to be discarded or if they are to attempt a conception and thus life. If they choose not to create life, is that OK, for surely this is life (cellular life) being discarded? Why are some cells more important than other cells.

Two out of five (or more) conceptions end naturally, who is at fault here? Nature, god, who? Are these conceptions humans? If so support an effort to end this.

How is it that a decision, a moral judgment, that a women or a couple makes is thought of as wrong by another person or entity who have no authority to tell or command another person? And not only do not care but would be offended if asked to support or raise the child. It is so easy to preach and have superior values when nothing is required.

I repeat when anti-abortion foes stop the needless deaths of living, feeling humans throughout the world who die every 15 seconds, when they even care and protest that this happens, when they protest wars that kill the innocent, when they provide welfare and care for the homeless and the hungry in America and the world, then I will take them serious. But until then they are hypocrites because their only desire is to control another who they do not care about and probably condemn. It's so easy to be moral when nothing is required of you and you do nothing but preach and legislate.

"In the 1950s, about a million illegal abortions a year were performed in the U.S., and over a thousand women died each year as a result. Women who were victims of botched or unsanitary abortions came in desperation to hospital emergency wards, where some died of widespread abdominal infections. Many women who recovered from such infections found themselves sterile or chronically and painfully ill. The enormous emotional stress often lasted a long time." HISTORY OF ABORTION

the reason people are so obsessed with ending abortion is because they have not overcome a necessary mental barrier. this sis one of those issues where clear philosophical thought is imperative, and the people who are not capable of that default and say "stop killing babies" when in fact, if you think about it, abortion is not really murder, at least not of a sentient being. and besides, as you said, people die more than once every five seconds. another thing that people cannot seem to understand is that unless you know a person or that person was affecting your life, if they die it is not any different than any other person dying. I thought of this recently when someone in my community was diagnosed with cancer, and their family started fundraising. practically everyone donated money. many of them never give to charity. their $50 would have made a much larger difference loaned out to people through kiva, or paying for a child to have surgery to fix his cleft lip, but never mind that, they would rather make paying medical bills a little easier for some kids parents than actually make a difference, only because they live closer.

When does a being become sentient?

 

[Asclepias]

Given that I've been PRO CHOICE most of my adult life, I'm beginning to rethink that position now. Through Roe vs. Wade woman have been granted the legal right to decide the value of every unborn human life and have been granted the absolute power to legally terminate all of them at their sole discretion. This is not a right or power that should be given to anyone. Woman ultimately decide who lives and who dies - who's valuable and who is not, and many people have absolutely no problem with this. At one time I didn't either, but then I never thought about this issue in these terms.


Many pro choicer's suggest woman can be trusted with such absolute power. Still, there are over 1,000,000 abortions taking place in this nation annually, an estimated 850,000 of which could have been prevented absolutely by being more responsible. I realize that what people do in the bedroom is not my business (thank God). However, if a couple do not want an unwanted pregnancy, it can be prevented. There are quite a few options that will never result in pregnancy. Abstinence being one of many. Also, there are no contraceptives that offer 100% pregnancy prevention. That's an important thing to consider also, but I digress.


While woman's personal issues are not my business either, granting any human absolute power to determine the value of, and the authority to terminate unborn human life at their sole discretion is my business as an American citizen. This issue is about human rights. It's about granting human entities far too much power. It's about ethics and even morality for some. Heck, I'd prefer deliberate and well focused genetic engineering over the haphazard method of determining human value utilized by some, and that's a VERY frightening proposition. It's unethical too. Many pro choicer's suggest woman should be fully trusted and able to retain this undeniably unequaled liberty and power. I Am now in disagreement. Yesterday I was on the fence. The day before I was pro-choice.


You can thank those with fictitious and hostile arguments that are irrelevant to the discussion thrown against people who actually care about everyone involved. You can thank those who outright deny and sugar coat the harsh reality of abortion, their unwillingness to discuss the issue honestly, their want to suppress responsible behavior, their indirect encouragement of irresponsible behavior, their indirect encouragement of accountability avoidance, and the fact that all this threatens not only the human rights of woman, but the human rights of everyone else in this nation, as well as the future of the entire human race. I thank them for opening my eyes. There is no room nor chance for compromise between the opposing views. I understand this now. This issue is going to back to court as it needs to.


Furthermore, many pro choicer's have the gall to mock those who place trust in God. I find this quite ironic being that 850,000 woman annually have proven themselves (some over and again) to be terribly irresponsible when it comes to this issue (abusive even). The unequaled and absolute power granted to them over unborn human life is being abused without question. None of us should have this kind of power. Not you, not me, not our government, not woman, not men, not anyone ... Ever (.) If a woman's right to choose is to remain a right, very real limitations of that power need to placed upon them. Otherwise, Roe vs. Wade should be overturned indefinitely, which is where this issue is heading and at a very rapid pace. If woman have the absolute power to determine the value of, and the authority to terminate all unborn human lives at their sole discretion, then the future of humanity is at stake and placed solely on the character of woman, many of whom have proven themselves over and again to be abusive of this power.

I hate abortion but I am pro-choice. Women do have more power than men and thats OK. Its a natural thing. They have the power to give life. Men that dont get that will forever fight a losing battle. You simply cant legislate a womans womb nor do you have the right to really even speak on it until you too possess that power. You cant force someone to bear a responsibility that you by natural law are not qualified to hold.

 

[ninja007]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

Another ridiculous lie from the right.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

OK JaggedZenMonkey...let's get to the bottom line...answer required.

If abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?

A better question would be what should be done to those that provide the illegal abortions (if abortions are made illegal)?

No, the only question is what is your plan to end the practice of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[Asclepias]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

How would you? I remember you were on here trying to figure out if some woman really liked you or not. You dont present yourself in anyway as an expert on women that have abortions or otherwise.

 

[ninja007]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

Another ridiculous lie from the right.

o really?

Abortion Risks A list of major psychological complications related to abortion After Abortion

 

[ninja007]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

How would you? I remember you were on here trying to figure out if some woman really liked you or not. You dont present yourself in anyway as an expert on women that have abortions or otherwise.

i think you got the wrong guy.....

 

[Asclepias]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

Another ridiculous lie from the right.

o really?

Abortion Risks A list of major psychological complications related to abortion After Abortion

Risk doesnt mean it always happens. Its just like those commercials that warn your ears may leak blood if you use nasal spray. Talk to your doctor so he can explain to you why they call it a risk.

 

[Asclepias]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

How would you? I remember you were on here trying to figure out if some woman really liked you or not. You dont present yourself in anyway as an expert on women that have abortions or otherwise.

i think you got the wrong guy.....

If you say so.

Serious Question about girl I know saying something to me US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I have known her for over 10 years, strictly as my Dr. office's assistant. She is 37, I'm 41. I'm single, no kids, she is single, one daughter of about 13?

My ? is this- recently she has been winking and smiling at me while in the Dr.'s chair...but I'm not sure if she is just being flirty or actually likes me. I have been out of the dating game for over 10 years!

My other question is last week she had said to me as we were talking about rel.'s- she said (after we agreed on a few things)- that "You are a guy version of me".

Now I have heard this could be understood as a very good thing or a friends zone thing, so in your guys'; opinion, with this little bit of info, which do you think is it? We have never hung out outside of her work, except I did visit her one night last year at her bartending job for just one beer, but nothing ever was said or happened as to anything about us.

thx. Would like girl's honest opinions esp.

 

[ninja007]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

How would you? I remember you were on here trying to figure out if some woman really liked you or not. You dont present yourself in anyway as an expert on women that have abortions or otherwise.

i think you got the wrong guy.....

If you say so.

Serious Question about girl I know saying something to me US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I have known her for over 10 years, strictly as my Dr. office's assistant. She is 37, I'm 41. I'm single, no kids, she is single, one daughter of about 13?

My ? is this- recently she has been winking and smiling at me while in the Dr.'s chair...but I'm not sure if she is just being flirty or actually likes me. I have been out of the dating game for over 10 years!

My other question is last week she had said to me as we were talking about rel.'s- she said (after we agreed on a few things)- that "You are a guy version of me".

Now I have heard this could be understood as a very good thing or a friends zone thing, so in your guys'; opinion, with this little bit of info, which do you think is it? We have never hung out outside of her work, except I did visit her one night last year at her bartending job for just one beer, but nothing ever was said or happened as to anything about us.

thx. Would like girl's honest opinions esp.

one post, big deal.....

 

[ninja007]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

Another ridiculous lie from the right.

o really?

Abortion Risks A list of major psychological complications related to abortion After Abortion

Risk doesnt mean it always happens. Its just like those commercials that warn your ears may leak blood if you use nasal spray. Talk to your doctor so he can explain to you why they call it a risk.

kinda like the risk of blacks getting aids kinda thing? or killing each other kinda thing? those risks?

 

[Asclepias]

Has the OP actually ever bothered to read the RvW decision for himself?

Because that would be a good starting point for him to find the answers to some of the questions he posed in post #3. The SCOTUS did actually address many of those questions.

Once the OP has educated himself he might want to try answering how he personally would take on the responsibility of raising a newborn until they have graduated college as a single father. Because that is the burden he is placing on others that he doesn't have to deal with himself.

Next the OP should go the Guttmacher site and read the statistics on women who do have abortions.

There he will discover that a majority of them do have religious beliefs similar to his own. He will also discover that many of these women already do have other children to care for and an additional child might be more than they can afford.

Again, is the OP willing to carry the burden of that additional child himself? If not, why is he imposing it on a mother already trying her best to raise the children she already has?

bullshit. Women who have had abortions are fucked up, commit suicide and are scarred for life in every way including having issues being able to have a child in the future.

How would you? I remember you were on here trying to figure out if some woman really liked you or not. You dont present yourself in anyway as an expert on women that have abortions or otherwise.

i think you got the wrong guy.....

If you say so.

Serious Question about girl I know saying something to me US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I have known her for over 10 years, strictly as my Dr. office's assistant. She is 37, I'm 41. I'm single, no kids, she is single, one daughter of about 13?

My ? is this- recently she has been winking and smiling at me while in the Dr.'s chair...but I'm not sure if she is just being flirty or actually likes me. I have been out of the dating game for over 10 years!

My other question is last week she had said to me as we were talking about rel.'s- she said (after we agreed on a few things)- that "You are a guy version of me".

Now I have heard this could be understood as a very good thing or a friends zone thing, so in your guys'; opinion, with this little bit of info, which do you think is it? We have never hung out outside of her work, except I did visit her one night last year at her bartending job for just one beer, but nothing ever was said or happened as to anything about us.

thx. Would like girl's honest opinions esp.

one post, big deal.....

Its ok I busted you. Carry on.

 

[JoeMoma]

OK JaggedZenMonkey...let's get to the bottom line...answer required.

If abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?

A better question would be what should be done to those that provide the illegal abortions (if abortions are made illegal)?

No, the only question is what is your plan to end the practice of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

This is a discussion board. Many hypothetical questions are to be explored here. Also, since the constitution has an amendment process and because the Supreme Court has the power to reverse previous rulings, it is possible that abortion is made illegal.

 

[Bfgrn]

OK JaggedZenMonkey...let's get to the bottom line...answer required.

If abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?

A better question would be what should be done to those that provide the illegal abortions (if abortions are made illegal)?

No, the only question is what is your plan to end the practice of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

This is a discussion board. Many hypothetical questions are to be explored here. Also, since the constitution has an amendment process and because the Supreme Court has the power to reverse previous rulings, it is possible that abortion is made illegal.

Sure, if America elects a Josef Stalin...

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I always find it fascinating that men who can never experience the joy anguish or pain of pregnancy are obsessed with abortion? The amount of internet bandwidth that goes into this debate must astound, it may even beat Hitler or Munich references? It's so simple when all you have to do is expound on a subject that for most of us will never even be decisive. But the poor soul who has made a mistake or has accidentally become pregnant must face a world that knows what's best for you and will kill to prove it.

Abortion is the hypocrite's crutch, it requires nothing of the hypocrite, controlling the lives of another person is what they desire most, taking care of or assisting the same person is something they loathe. Empty moralizing is their trademark. A child dies every 15 seconds in the world of natural causes, do you ever hear the hypocrites mention them? And every married couple, every month aborts life, unless they attempt to conceive the potential life present, they just pretend it is something other than what it is. The same people who argue against supporting a woman's right to contraceptive medicine, gladly pay for boner medicine, I guess males matter more than women in their world, and so it goes.

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." Edward Abbey

''God Does Not Regard the Fetus as a Soul,' Conservative evangelicals didn’t always care much about abortion or contraception. The strange story of how they came to be obsessed with them.' By Jamelle Bouie

"In his book Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics, Jonathan Dudley notes that most evangelicals held far more liberal views at the time. “God does not regard the fetus as a soul no matter how far gestation has progressed,” wrote professor Bruce Waltke of Dallas Theological Seminary in a 1968 issue of Christianity Today on contraception and abortion, edited by Harold Lindsell, a then-famous champion of biblical “inerrancy.” His argument rested on the Hebrew Bible, “[A]ccording to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”"

Hobby Lobby and contraception How conservative evangelicals went from not caring about abortion and birth control to being obsessed with them.

Hm...

Is lack of proper health care legalized murder? Is collateral damage murder? Are sanctions which only kill children and the sickly murder? Is the lack of a fair wage and a place to sleep murder? If parents can be held accountable for their children after birth and society finds it acceptable to punish them, then shouldn't all those who argue against healthcare, child support, food programs, and welfare, shouldn't they too be held accountable? Is invading a sovereign nation on trumped up charges murder? Did you protest Iraq? Did you cry these crocodile tears? So called pro life may be the biggest hypocritical religious position of modern America as none of these people want to support the living, feed the hungry, stop war, or follow their own phony stance and have lots of children. None would take care all the children born except to place them into servitude and condemn them. Hypocrites all.

Why is it that men who cannot make this decision know the proper decision? Keep your religion out of other people lives.

Does pro-life include not eating and killing other life forms for surely they suffer and die at a more advanced level of life and feeling?

Each month a women, a couple, decide on whether the cells, the potential person cells are to be discarded or if they are to attempt a conception and thus life. If they choose not to create life, is that OK, for surely this is life (cellular life) being discarded? Why are some cells more important than other cells.

Two out of five (or more) conceptions end naturally, who is at fault here? Nature, god, who? Are these conceptions humans? If so support an effort to end this.

How is it that a decision, a moral judgment, that a women or a couple makes is thought of as wrong by another person or entity who have no authority to tell or command another person? And not only do not care but would be offended if asked to support or raise the child. It is so easy to preach and have superior values when nothing is required.

I repeat when anti-abortion foes stop the needless deaths of living, feeling humans throughout the world who die every 15 seconds, when they even care and protest that this happens, when they protest wars that kill the innocent, when they provide welfare and care for the homeless and the hungry in America and the world, then I will take them serious. But until then they are hypocrites because their only desire is to control another who they do not care about and probably condemn. It's so easy to be moral when nothing is required of you and you do nothing but preach and legislate.

"In the 1950s, about a million illegal abortions a year were performed in the U.S., and over a thousand women died each year as a result. Women who were victims of botched or unsanitary abortions came in desperation to hospital emergency wards, where some died of widespread abdominal infections. Many women who recovered from such infections found themselves sterile or chronically and painfully ill. The enormous emotional stress often lasted a long time." HISTORY OF ABORTION

the reason people are so obsessed with ending abortion is because they have not overcome a necessary mental barrier. this sis one of those issues where clear philosophical thought is imperative, and the people who are not capable of that default and say "stop killing babies" when in fact, if you think about it, abortion is not really murder, at least not of a sentient being. and besides, as you said, people die more than once every five seconds. another thing that people cannot seem to understand is that unless you know a person or that person was affecting your life, if they die it is not any different than any other person dying. I thought of this recently when someone in my community was diagnosed with cancer, and their family started fundraising. practically everyone donated money. many of them never give to charity. their $50 would have made a much larger difference loaned out to people through kiva, or paying for a child to have surgery to fix his cleft lip, but never mind that, they would rather make paying medical bills a little easier for some kids parents than actually make a difference, only because they live closer.

When does a being become sentient?

we really don't know when sentience develops (we really have no Idea what it is, other than an interesting thing to think about (its also one of my favorite things to discuss, but ill save that for the philosophy forums)), in fact, we really have no Idea at all, considering the fact that we don't know how it ever comes into existence, but it is reasonable to believe that it is not possible without a developed cerebrum. another issue is that we are born with such undeveloped brains that sentience has certainly developed by the time we have memories.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

O.k., so I'm accused of hating woman because I value all human life, everyone's human rights, and human equality for all? That's what this issue comes down to for me, but this isn't about basic human rights for the pro choice crowd at all. Is it? It's about wanting the legal right to evade accountability when two people make a mistake that involves the creation of a human life. The "mistake" could have been prevented with simple personal choices that don't involve the termination of the human life created. Accuse me of whatever you like. So far, I'm a liar, a misogynist, absurd, a dictator, a wanna be lord and master, etc. Is there anything else you people would like to add to this discussion that doesn't involve insult and accusation? You don't like my position? Fair enough. I no longer agree with yours. Insult, accusation, and willful refusal to discuss this issue without hostility seems to be the modus operandi. I gave my reasons for changing my position on the issue openly. I own that position. It's mine to bear. The way this discussion is going, and how these discussions typically go, I'll not be changing back and you won't be changing either. This was never my intention to begin with. Thanks for the amicable discussion folks. Well, at least some were willing to actually discuss the issue without all the negativity. Others, not so much.

I am all for reducing abortions. And studies have proven that free access to contraceptives is the best way to do that. But the "pro life" movement is against free access to contraceptives. It reveals that reducing abortions is really not what the pro life movement is about.

Here is someone who was pro life and became pro choice.

How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement
October 29, 2012 by Libby Anne



The spring of my sophomore year of college I was president of my university’s Students for Life chapter. The fall of my junior year of college I cut my ties with the pro-life movement. Five years later I have lost the last shred of faith I had in that movement. This is my story.

I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, not banning abortion, was the key to decreasing the number of abortions. Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit. I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.

My views on fetal personhood and women’s bodily autonomy have shifted since that day, but when I first started blogging a year and a half ago I was nevertheless very insistent that the pro-life movement should be taken at its word when it came to rhetoric about saving “unborn babies” from being “murdered.” I insisted that the pro-life movement wasn’t anti-woman or anti-sex, and that those who opposed abortion genuinely believed that a zygote/embryo/fetus was a person with rights in need of protection just like any other person. I believed that the pro-life movement’s actions were counterproductive, but that they were merely misinformed. I wrote a post with practical suggestions for opponents of abortion. I believed that the pro-life movement was genuine in its goals, but simply ignorant about how its goals might best be obtained.

I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”

I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.

What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled, and that you would be more effective in decreasing the number of abortions that occur if you were to side with pro-choice progressives. If this is you, please hear me out before shaking your head.

- See more at: How I Lost Faith in the Pro-Life Movement

nice signature.

 

[koshergrl]

OK JaggedZenMonkey...let's get to the bottom line...answer required.

If abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?

A better question would be what should be done to those that provide the illegal abortions (if abortions are made illegal)?

No, the only question is what is your plan to end the practice of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

This is a discussion board. Many hypothetical questions are to be explored here. Also, since the constitution has an amendment process and because the Supreme Court has the power to reverse previous rulings, it is possible that abortion is made illegal.

Sure, if America elects a Josef Stalin...

Josef Stalin believed the same things you do. Thankfully, we're moving away from that and in spite of the liars who claim that most Americans support abortion on demand...we don't. And the states are moving to shutter pp clinics as we speak in light of the feds refusal to act on our behalf.

 

[Skylar]

Given that I've been PRO CHOICE most of my adult life, I'm beginning to rethink that position now. Through Roe vs. Wade woman have been granted the legal right to decide the value of every unborn human life and have been granted the absolute power to legally terminate all of them at their sole discretion. This is not a right or power that should be given to anyone. Woman ultimately decide who lives and who dies - who's valuable and who is not, and many people have absolutely no problem with this. At one time I didn't either, but then I never thought about this issue in these terms.


Many pro choicer's suggest woman can be trusted with such absolute power. Still, there are over 1,000,000 abortions taking place in this nation annually, an estimated 850,000 of which could have been prevented absolutely by being more responsible. I realize that what people do in the bedroom is not my business (thank God). However, if a couple do not want an unwanted pregnancy, it can be prevented. There are quite a few options that will never result in pregnancy. Abstinence being one of many. Also, there are no contraceptives that offer 100% pregnancy prevention. That's an important thing to consider also, but I digress.


While woman's personal issues are not my business either, granting any human absolute power to determine the value of, and the authority to terminate unborn human life at their sole discretion is my business as an American citizen. This issue is about human rights. It's about granting human entities far too much power. It's about ethics and even morality for some. Heck, I'd prefer deliberate and well focused genetic engineering over the haphazard method of determining human value utilized by some, and that's a VERY frightening proposition. It's unethical too. Many pro choicer's suggest woman should be fully trusted and able to retain this undeniably unequaled liberty and power. I Am now in disagreement. Yesterday I was on the fence. The day before I was pro-choice.


You can thank those with fictitious and hostile arguments that are irrelevant to the discussion thrown against people who actually care about everyone involved. You can thank those who outright deny and sugar coat the harsh reality of abortion, their unwillingness to discuss the issue honestly, their want to suppress responsible behavior, their indirect encouragement of irresponsible behavior, their indirect encouragement of accountability avoidance, and the fact that all this threatens not only the human rights of woman, but the human rights of everyone else in this nation, as well as the future of the entire human race. I thank them for opening my eyes. There is no room nor chance for compromise between the opposing views. I understand this now. This issue is going to back to court as it needs to.


Furthermore, many pro choicer's have the gall to mock those who place trust in God. I find this quite ironic being that 850,000 woman annually have proven themselves (some over and again) to be terribly irresponsible when it comes to this issue (abusive even). The unequaled and absolute power granted to them over unborn human life is being abused without question. None of us should have this kind of power. Not you, not me, not our government, not woman, not men, not anyone ... Ever (.) If a woman's right to choose is to remain a right, very real limitations of that power need to placed upon them. Otherwise, Roe vs. Wade should be overturned indefinitely, which is where this issue is heading and at a very rapid pace. If woman have the absolute power to determine the value of, and the authority to terminate all unborn human lives at their sole discretion, then the future of humanity is at stake and placed solely on the character of woman, many of whom have proven themselves over and again to be abusive of this power.

The 'power' you're referring to is the power to control the use of your own body?