French Attack?

[Annie]

First they do this:

AFP: France foils two Somali pirate attacks, holds 19: Paris

France foils two Somali pirate attacks, holds 19: Paris
1 day ago
PARIS (AFP) — A French warship Sunday foiled attempts by Somalian pirates in the Gulf of Aden to seize two cargo vessels and intercepted 19 people, the French president's office said.
"Three days after a French vessel thwarted an attack on a Panamanian cargo ship" the frigate Jean de Vienne conducted a "decisive action" against "two new attacks" it said in a statement.
"The 19 Somali pirates who tried to seize the two boats were intercepted," it added, saying they carried weapons, ammunition and material for boarding ships....

Then this:

The Associated Press: Pirates attack French vessel off Nigerian coast

Pirates attack French vessel off Nigerian coast
4 hours ago
PARIS (AP) — Pirates hijacked a French boat and took its nine crew members hostage in the latest attack in some of the world's most dangerous waters off oil-rich southern Nigeria, the boat's owner said Monday.
The captain of the Bourbon Leda was able to speak with the boat's owners Sunday and said that all nine crew members were unharmed, according to a statement by the company, Bourbon, which provides specialist boats for the oil and gas industry. It said in the statement Monday that it was working to free the crew...

Can't catch a break...

 

[DavidS]

The French military is an oxymoron.

 

[elvis]

Is this the first French attack since Waterloo?

 

[Diuretic]

Ah the continuing calumny about the French military. Remember the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing? They retaliated against Islamic militants.

But heck don't let facts spoil the party

 

[mightypeon]

Well, "We who are the rest of the people raised our heart and eyes to heaven crying for God to have compassion upon us, and to turn away from us the power of the French."

Who said that?

This completely unfounded "France cannot fight" thing is about as bad as the "Russian hordes" stereotype, closely followed by "Germans like to go to war".

For the record, France most common activity since the rennaisance was kicking around most of continental Europe, especially Germany. Russias main historical problem was a shortage of manpower, and the individual German states were totally incapable of going to war since they lacked significant force projection capacities. Heck, the Habsburgs, the strongest Germans, friggin inherited their territorial gains as opposed to fighting for them.

There is no nation with a long enough history that does not have its share of catastrophic defeats, and Americans strongly adhere to the old PR strategem "After a war, overstate your enemies and belittle your allies".

 

[editec]

Ah the continuing calumny about the French military. Remember the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing? They retaliated against Islamic militants.

But heck don't let facts spoil the party

Yes, some Americans are told a load of francophobic nonsense and of course since it suits their preconceived prejudices after years of Anglophilic propaganda, naturally they buy it whole clothe.

 

[catzmeow]

Yes, some Americans are told a load of francophobic nonsense and of course since it suits their preconceived prejudices after years of Anglophilic propaganda, naturally they buy it whole clothe.

I don't think it is Anglophilic propaganda to suggest that the French beat themselves with defeatest attitudes in May, 1940.

The Panzer Corps now slowed their advance considerably but had put themselves in a very vulnerable position. They were stretched out, exhausted and low on fuel; many tanks had broken down. There now was a dangerous gap between them and the infantry. A determined attack by a fresh large mechanized force could have cut them off and wiped them out.

The French high command, however, was reeling from the shock of the sudden offensive and was stung by a sense of defeatism. On the morning of May 15, French Prime Minister Paul Reynaud telephoned newly minted Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Winston Churchill and said "We have been defeated. We are beaten; we have lost the battle." Churchill, attempting to console Reynaud reminded the Prime Minister of the times the Germans had broken through allied lines in World War I only to be stopped. However, Reynaud was inconsolable.

Churchill flew to Paris on May 16. He immediately recognized the gravity of the situation when he observed that the French government was already burning its archives and preparing for an evacuation of the capital. In a somber meeting with the French commanders, Churchill asked General Gamelin, "Where is the strategic reserve?" which had saved Paris in the First World War. "There is none," Gamelin replied. Later, Churchill described hearing this as the single most shocking moment in his life. Churchill asked Gamelin when and where the general proposed to launch a counterattack against the flanks of the German bulge. Gamelin simply replied "inferiority of numbers, inferiority of equipment, inferiority of methods".

Reynaud and Gamelin essentially handed France over to the Germans.

 

[Andrew2382]

The Complete Military History of France

Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. [Or at ths time in history, a Roman -ed.]

- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War
- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States [Entering the war late -ed.]. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

Or, better still, the quote from last week's Wall Street Journal: "They're there when they need you."



With only an hour and a half of research, Jonathan Duczkowski provided the following losses:

Norse invasions, 841-911.
After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King named Charles the Simple (really!) who gave them Normandy in return for peace. Normans proceed to become just about the only positive military bonus in France's [favour] for next 500 years.

Andrew Ouellette posts this in response:

1066 A.D. William The Conquerer Duke and Ruler of France Launches the Largest Invasion in the history of the world no other was as large until the same trip was taken in reverse on June 6th 1944 William Fights Harold for the Throne of England Which old king Edward rightfully left to William but Harold Usurped the throne Will fights the Saxons (English)wins and the French Rule England for the Next 80 Years. then the French start the largest building and economic infrastructure since the fall of the Roman Empire the Norman Economy skyrockets and the Normans inadvertantly start England to become a major world Power Vive La France-

Matt Davis posts this in response to Andrew Ouellette above:

Oh dear. We seem to have overlooked some basic facts. Firstly, Philip the First (1060 - 1108) was King of France at the time of the Norman invasion of 1066 - William was Duke of Normandy and, incidentally, directly descended from the Vikings. William was, therefore, as alien to France as the experience of victory. Since Philip did not invade England, the victory at Hastings was Norman - not French. Normandy may be a part of France now but it most certainly wasn't in 1066. Therefore, William's coronation as King of England had nothing whatsoever to do with the French. As usual, they were nowhere near the place when the fighting was going on. The mistaken belief that 1066 was a French victory leads to the Third Rule of French Warfare; "When incapable of any victory whatsoever - claim someone else's".

Mexico, 1863-1864.
France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier ("Halls of Montezuma"). Not surprisingly, the only unit to distinguish itself is the French Foreign Legion (consisting of, by definition, non-Frenchmen). Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.

Panama jungles 1881-1890.
No one but nature to fight, France still loses; canal is eventually built by the U.S. 1904-1914.

Napoleonic Wars.
Should be noted that the Grand Armee was largely (~%50) composed of non-Frenchmen after 1804 or so. Mainly disgruntled minorities and anti-monarchists. Not surprisingly, these performed better than the French on many occasions.

Haiti, 1791-1804.
French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare; when in doubt, send an ally.

India, 1673-1813.
British were far more charming than French, ended up victors. Therefore the British are well known for their tea, and the French for their whine (er, wine...). Ensures 200 years of bad teeth in England.

Barbary Wars, middle ages-1830.
Pirates in North Africa continually harass European shipping in Meditteranean. France's solution: pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: kick their asses ("the Shores of Tripoli"). [America's] first overseas victories, won 1801-1815.

1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S.
French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually cave; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.

Moors in Spain, late 700s-early 800s.
Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, French are unable to make much progress. Hide behind Pyrennes until the modern day.

French-on-French losses (probably should be counted as victories too, just to be fair):

1208: Albigenses Crusade, French massacared by French.
When asked how to differentiate a heretic from the faithful, response was "Kill them all. God will know His own." Lesson: French are badasses when fighting unarmed men, women and children.

St. Bartholomew Day Massacre, August 24, 1572.
Once again, French-on-French slaughter.

Third Crusade.
Philip Augustus of France throws hissy-fit, leaves Crusade for Richard the Lion Heart to finish.

Seventh Crusade.
St. Louis of France leads Crusade to Egypt. Resoundingly crushed.

[Eighth] Crusade.
St. Louis back in action, this time in Tunis. See Seventh Crusade.

Also should be noted that France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defenses.

Thomas Whiteley has submitted this addition to me:

Seven year War 1756-1763
Lost: after getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia (yep, the Germans again) at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada (Wolfe at Quebec) and India (Clive at Plassey).

Richard Mann, an American in France wants to add the following:

The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years on colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair.

 

[mightypeon]

Thats what I call typical francophobe rubbish.

100 year war mostly lost? Please have a look at the English possession before and after the war. Before: Aquitane? Normandy? Half of southern France? Jup, all English. After: Calais. period. Over. And they only kept it because Burgundy prevented French military access.
Saying that France lost the 100 year war is about as stupid as saying that the USSR lost World War 2.

Barbary campaing? You know, exactly why do you think did the french go into Algeria (and stayed there, I dont remember American colonies in North Africa), jup, had a lot of things to do with wiping out the Barbary pirates they allegedly bribed.

30 years war: You know, before the French intervention, the Habsburgs have beaten back the Danes, bought off the Swedes and kicked the total snot out of the German minors. They more or less turned all of Germany into their puppet states, Brandenburg/Prussia et. al were no longer allowed to negotiate with foreign powers etc. than france came in and after it was through with the Habsburgs they had to accept the return to the status quo ante bellum. Delayed German unification by another 200 years.

What about the Battle of Bouviennes, France decisivly trounces a German/Anglo Alliance, leading to france eventually becoming a centralised state while royal authority evaporated in Germany.

Anyone wanting to reiterate about Carl martell? The first battle of European Knighthood?

For a fairly long time, a French declaration of war was propably the thing that European monarchs feared the most...



@ Catzmeow:
defeat may have many reasons, the Japanese at Kalkin Gol and later during August Storm also thought that "There is no way the unwashed Russian hordes will beat us", only to be surrounded and destroyed by superior tactics instead of human wave assaults.
A Certain defeatist attitude also persisted for a long time amongst Imperial Holy Roman armies as is evidenced in their usually catastophic clashes with Prussian, Ottoman and French forces. Did that lead to a sentiment that Germans cant fight?
I am not saying that French armies are unbeatable military geniousses, no army is unbeatable (btw. there is a reason why military terms like Battalion, Regiment, Advance etc. are coming from the French language), but using a singular defeat to belittle a nation with a martial history of 2000 years is awfully shortsighted.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't think it is Anglophilic propaganda to suggest that the French beat themselves with defeatest attitudes in May, 1940.



Reynaud and Gamelin essentially handed France over to the Germans.

And yet the French - let's keep generalising shall we? - had civilians fighting in the Underground against the Vichy forces and the occupying Nazis.

 

[catzmeow]

And yet the French - let's keep generalising shall we? - had civilians fighting in the Underground against the Vichy forces and the occupying Nazis.

They had a very difficult time recruiting until DeGaulle was able to recruit sufficient assistance from the Allies that they felt safe playing along.



I do love generalizing broadly, though.

 

[Diuretic]

Yeah, details annoy me, I enjoy sweeping generalities............beats sweeping the yard

 

[catzmeow]

Yeah, details annoy me, I enjoy sweeping generalities............beats sweeping the yard

Or raking, for that matter. We've been doing a shit ton of raking! meh.

 

[tigerbob]

For a fairly long time, a French declaration of war was propably the thing that European monarchs feared the most...

This fairly long time....was it between lunch and tea?

 

[Diuretic]

Or raking, for that matter. We've been doing a shit ton of raking! meh.

Good for the flowers though

 

[mightypeon]

I would say that the Kingdom of france was feared between the battle of Bouvienes (around 13th century), roughly until the Franco German war which was 1871. Thats more than 600 years, which is for example longer than the US existed.

Mind you, Charlemange was quite scary too.

 

[tigerbob]

Thats more than 600 years, which is for example longer than the US existed.

Thanks for the help with the math.

I'm assuming you are making a point about France having been a world power for much longer than the USA. Why?

 

[Diuretic]

I've always enjoyed La Chanson de Roland.

Not that it adds much to the discussion, just thought I'd tell you all about it.

And let's not forget Bayard!

Okay, as you were.

 

[mightypeon]

Because history is my pet peeve, I A) cannot stand sweeping generalisations and
B) I cannot stand national prejudices.

 

[Andrew2382]

yeah, well one carrier fleet will fuck up your 13th century french superpower