Freedom's Destruction By Constitutional De-Construction

Discussion in 'Education' started by Kevin_Kennedy, Oct 19, 2009.

  1. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    Campaign For Liberty — Freedom's Destruction By Constitutional De-Construction   | by Timothy Baldwin
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. Old Rocks
    Online

    Old Rocks Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    46,499
    Thanks Received:
    5,417
    Trophy Points:
    1,840
    Location:
    Portland, Ore.
    Ratings:
    +10,337
    I see. Can't get the Constitution of the United States of America to say what you want it to, so let's just do away with it.

    Kevin, we live in the 21st century, not the 18th.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  3. jillian
    Offline

    jillian Princess Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    69,555
    Thanks Received:
    13,012
    Trophy Points:
    2,220
    Location:
    The Other Side of Paradise
    Ratings:
    +22,433
    That's Kevin's greatest frustration... but the thinks he's smarter than the supreme court so it should say what HE wants it to.

    Apparently, they've had it wrong for 200 years.

    Me? I think Kevin should actually take a couple of con law classes before he claims to know even a little about it. but hey, why should he be informed?
     
  4. Dr.Traveler
    Offline

    Dr.Traveler Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    3,952
    Thanks Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    In a Non-Euclidean Manifold
    Ratings:
    +1,054
    Kevin,

    The problem you'll have championing the Articles of Confederation is that many of the same folks behind the birth of the nation and the founding of the Articles are the same folks behind the Constitution.

    These are people that started the nation with an abject fear of centralized government, and went nearly 180 on the topic in light of some very credible and potentially disasterous shortcomings in the original Articles.

    If you want to debate what the Founders wanted in a centralized government and use the Constitution as a guide, that's a very interesting topic, but the Articles themselves are relegated to the trash heap of history for a very good reason.
     
  5. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    That would actually be the position of those who believe in a "living document," not me.
     
  6. Oddball
    Offline

    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    41,428
    Thanks Received:
    8,397
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Drinking wine, eating cheese, catching rays
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    The constitutional framers had an abject fear of centralized gubmint, too...That's why they introduced the concept of strictly enumerated powers and construction of the BoR.


    Also, the Articles of Confederation were never repealed...The Constitution was meant to build upon and further perfect them.
     
  7. Dr.Traveler
    Offline

    Dr.Traveler Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    3,952
    Thanks Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    In a Non-Euclidean Manifold
    Ratings:
    +1,054
    They did however come to the Constitutional Convention understanding the need, despite their fears, for a centralized government and the failures of the Articles in the respect.

    That's about all you can say in general about the Founders. Past that they all had their opinion about how far the Fed can and should go. What they put on paper was the best compromise they could come up with.
     
  8. Oddball
    Offline

    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    41,428
    Thanks Received:
    8,397
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Drinking wine, eating cheese, catching rays
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    No argument here.

    They further wrote that document with the intent that the enumerated powers were it, unless an amendment vested them with more....The writings in the Federalist and Anti-federalist papers make that pretty clear to all who can read and comprehend plain English.

    And I wouldn't say that the Articles of Confederation were a total failure...If they sere so they would have been repealed altogether, not built upon and made more specific with the Constitution.
     
  9. Dr.Traveler
    Offline

    Dr.Traveler Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    3,952
    Thanks Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    In a Non-Euclidean Manifold
    Ratings:
    +1,054
    True, the Articles weren't a complete failure. The individual States still had democratic forms of government prior to ratification of the Constitution and none of the original States had fallen to foreign powers.

    It did have some serious failings though, which prompted the need to create the Constitution and ratify it.

    As for building on the Articles, I don't see anything in the Constitution that mentions the Articles as having any legal force once the Constitution was passed. Article VI paragraph I says:
    Implying that this may be an issue. Hardly seems necessary if the Articles and those laws passed under it still had binding force. Its true that Article VII doesn't specifically say that the Articles are repealled once the Constitution is ratified though. However, the Constitution lays out a completely new form of government.

    EDIT: I'd like to add that an interesting corollary to the idea that the Articles would still have binding legal power under the Constitution, is that the Articles, unlike the Constitution, specifically disallows secession by stating that the "Union shall be perpetual".
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2009
  10. Oddball
    Offline

    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    41,428
    Thanks Received:
    8,397
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Drinking wine, eating cheese, catching rays
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    More likely that the Articles of Confederation were meant to lapse into obsolescence than anything else.
     

Share This Page