France intervenes against 'terrorists'

[there4eyeM]

"Benjamin Franklin served as the American ambassador to France from 1776 to 1783. He met with many leading diplomats, aristocrats, intellectuals, scientists and financiers. Franklin's image and writings caught the French imagination – there were many images of him sold on the market – and he became the image of the archetypal new American and even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France. The French goal was to weaken Britain, both to keep it from getting too powerful and to exact revenge for the defeat in the Seven Year War. After the American capture of the British invasion army at Saratoga in 1777, and after the French navy had been built up, France was ready. In 1778 France recognized the United States of America as a sovereign nation, signed a military alliance, went to war with Britain, built coalitions with the Netherlands and Spain that kept Britain without a significant ally of its own, provided the Americans with grants, arms and loans, sent a combat army to serve under George Washington, and sent a navy that prevented the second British army from escaping from Yorktown in 1781. In all, the French spent about 1.3 billion livres (in modern currency, approximately thirteen billion U.S. dollars) to support the Americans directly, not including the money it spent fighting Britain on land and sea outside the U.S."

(from Wikipedia)

 

[Decus]

Let's see, 1778 (to clarify, this was the year France began to help) minus 1704 makes 84. An incident generations before American independence disqualifies the French nation from being recognized for what it is, the longest-running friend of American democracy and ideals (many of which came directly from French philosophers)?

For you, readers, to decide.

Why did France wait until 1778 to side with the colonists? Saratoga was a battle fought in October, 1777. Americans won a significant victory against the British that gave everyone cause to believe that Americans could prevail and win against the British.

Up to that moment we had been begging the French for their help. Only when they thought we could win did they join the cause. They saw that we could provide them with a victory against their traditional enemy. Had we not won the battle, they would have probably told us "tant pis pour vous" - too bad for you.

If we look at our relationship with the French to the present day, it is extremely difficult to see anything that could equate to a real act of friendship on their part.

I am sure that anyone here can list at least a dozen instances of French arrogance. Doubt that the opposite is true.

Has anyone here heard of the little statue in New York harbor, what's it called...?

Bartholdi was a bit of a con man - the statue was originally intended for Egypt. From the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago:

"Now an iconic American monument, the Statue of Liberty has interesting
connections to the ancient world and the modern history of the Middle East.
Its sculptor Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi visited Egypt in 1855 and expressed his admiration for the colossal statues on the facade of the temple at Abu Simbel.
He resolved to work on a monumental scale, and in 1867, Bartholdi proposed
that the Egyptian government build a giant statue and light beacon in the
form of a woman holding a torch aloft to be erected at the entrance of the
Suez Canal. Entitled “Egypt (or Progress) Carrying the Light to Asia,” it was to
symbolize industrial and social progress in Egypt. The Suez statue was never built, and the project was later reconfigured as a gift from France to the United States to celebrate the centennial of American independence (dedicated in New York, 1886).
"

https://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/danh_vo_labels.pdf

 

[Decus]

"Benjamin Franklin served as the American ambassador to France from 1776 to 1783. He met with many leading diplomats, aristocrats, intellectuals, scientists and financiers. Franklin's image and writings caught the French imagination – there were many images of him sold on the market – and he became the image of the archetypal new American and even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France. The French goal was to weaken Britain, both to keep it from getting too powerful and to exact revenge for the defeat in the Seven Year War. After the American capture of the British invasion army at Saratoga in 1777, and after the French navy had been built up, France was ready. In 1778 France recognized the United States of America as a sovereign nation, signed a military alliance, went to war with Britain, built coalitions with the Netherlands and Spain that kept Britain without a significant ally of its own, provided the Americans with grants, arms and loans, sent a combat army to serve under George Washington, and sent a navy that prevented the second British army from escaping from Yorktown in 1781. In all, the French spent about 1.3 billion livres (in modern currency, approximately thirteen billion U.S. dollars) to support the Americans directly, not including the money it spent fighting Britain on land and sea outside the U.S."

(from Wikipedia)

"Nowhere was the victory at Saratoga more noted than in France, which had been tentative in its efforts to assist the Americans. France's interest in the American fight for independence stemmed from France's humiliating defeat during the Seven Years War at the hands of its ancient enemy, England.

As French historian Henri Doniol has put it, "Almost immediately after the peace of 1763, it (the French Government) sought in the tendency of the English colonies to revolt against their mother country the occasion by which we would avenge ourselves upon England and tear up the treaty of Paris".

The French Alliance [ushistory.org]

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

France has unilaterally sent forces into war-torn Mali with the intent of defending democracy there. In fighting so far, they have been very successful with a minimum of casualties.

It seems popular among ill-informed people that France and the French are somehow cowards. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The French have been tougher since at least Reagan years...

In retaliation for the attacks, France launched an airstrike in the Bekaa Valley against alleged Islamic Revolutionary Guards positions.

President Reagan assembled his national security team and planned to...

There was no serious retaliation for the Beirut bombing from the Americans,[22] besides a few shellings.

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

American conservatives have always talked tough, but it was when an American conservative became a bit liberal, a bit more Kerry-
French, that America became safer...

Conservative Opposition - Hardline conservatives protest Gorbachev’s visit to Washington, and the signing of the treaty, in the strongest possible terms.

When Reagan suggests that Gorbachev address a joint session of Congress, Congressional Republicans, led by House member Dick Cheney (R-WY—see 1983), rebel. Cheney says: “Addressing a joint meeting of Congress is a high honor, one of the highest honors we can accord anyone. Given the fact of continuing Soviet aggression in Afghanistan, Soviet repression in Eastern Europe, and Soviet actions in Africa and Central America, it is totally inappropriate to confer this honor upon Gorbachev. He is an adversary, not an ally.”

Conservative Paul Weyrich of the Free Congress Committee is more blunt in his assessment of the treaty agreement: “Reagan is a weakened president, weakened in spirit as well as in clout, and not in a position to make judgments about Gorbachev at this time.” Conservative pundit William F. Buckley calls the treaty a “suicide pact.”

Fellow conservative pundit George Will calls Reagan “wildly wrong” in his dealings with the Soviets. Conservatives gather to bemoan what they call “summit fever,” accusing Reagan of “appeasement” both of communists and of Congressional liberals, and protesting Reagan’s “cutting deals with the evil empire” (see March 8, 1983).

They mount a letter-writing campaign, generating some 300,000 letters, and launch a newspaper ad campaign that compares Reagan to former British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain.

Senators Jesse Helms (R-NC) and Steven Symms (R-ID) try to undercut the treaty by attempting to add amendments that would make the treaty untenable; Helms will lead a filibuster against the treaty as well.

Senate Ratification and a Presidential Rebuke - All the protests from hardline opponents of the treaty come to naught. When the Senate votes to ratify the treaty, Reagan says of his conservative opposition, “I think that some of the people who are objecting the most and just refusing even to accede to the idea of ever getting an understanding, whether they realize it or not, those people, basically, down in their deepest thoughts, have accepted that war is inevitable and that there must come to be a war between the superpowers.” [Scoblic, 2008,

George Will

It will not be until after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the tearing down of the Berlin Wall (see November 9, 1989 and After) that conservatives will revise their opinion of Reagan, in the process revising much of history in the process. [Scoblic, 2008, pp. 143-145]

 

[whitehall]

What does "intervene" mean? Are some interventions more justified than others? The US intervened in Vietnam and later Iraq and Afghanistan and was universally condemned for it. Clinton intervened in a thousand year old war in Bosnia and was praised for it. What makes a "good" intervention? When a democrat is in office?

 

[Decus]

"Benjamin Franklin served as the American ambassador to France from 1776 to 1783. He met with many leading diplomats, aristocrats, intellectuals, scientists and financiers. Franklin's image and writings caught the French imagination – there were many images of him sold on the market – and he became the image of the archetypal new American and even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France. The French goal was to weaken Britain, both to keep it from getting too powerful and to exact revenge for the defeat in the Seven Year War. After the American capture of the British invasion army at Saratoga in 1777, and after the French navy had been built up, France was ready. In 1778 France recognized the United States of America as a sovereign nation, signed a military alliance, went to war with Britain, built coalitions with the Netherlands and Spain that kept Britain without a significant ally of its own, provided the Americans with grants, arms and loans, sent a combat army to serve under George Washington, and sent a navy that prevented the second British army from escaping from Yorktown in 1781. In all, the French spent about 1.3 billion livres (in modern currency, approximately thirteen billion U.S. dollars) to support the Americans directly, not including the money it spent fighting Britain on land and sea outside the U.S."

(from Wikipedia)

"Nowhere was the victory at Saratoga more noted than in France, which had been tentative in its efforts to assist the Americans. France's interest in the American fight for independence stemmed from France's humiliating defeat during the Seven Years War at the hands of its ancient enemy, England.

As French historian Henri Doniol has put it, "Almost immediately after the peace of 1763, it (the French Government) sought in the tendency of the English colonies to revolt against their mother country the occasion by which we would avenge ourselves upon England and tear up the treaty of Paris".

The French Alliance [ushistory.org]

I was saving this for your return but it appears that you prefer retreat to annihilation. Seems you share something else with the French.

You need to look at the Frenchman responsible for the alliance between France and the Americans - the Comte de Vergennes.

"His hatred of England and his desire to avenge the disasters of the Seven Years’ War led to his support of the American States in the Revolutionary War (a step which ultimately led to financial and political disaster for the French and to the Revolution of 1789)."

Comte de Vergennes | Portraits in Revolution

 

[Luddly Neddite]

France has unilaterally sent forces into war-torn Mali with the intent of defending democracy there. In fighting so far, they have been very successful with a minimum of casualties.

It seems popular among ill-informed people that France and the French are somehow cowards. Nothing could be further from the truth.

From before the Revolution (ours, not theirs), France has been our real and true ally, including giving us money to help finance our Revolution.

In return, we shit on them.

I've been there, last time was for two weeks, some of the best people on the planet.

 

[Decus]

France has unilaterally sent forces into war-torn Mali with the intent of defending democracy there. In fighting so far, they have been very successful with a minimum of casualties.

It seems popular among ill-informed people that France and the French are somehow cowards. Nothing could be further from the truth.

From before the Revolution (ours, not theirs), France has been our real and true ally, including giving us money to help finance our Revolution.

In return, we shit on them.

I've been there, last time was for two weeks, some of the best people on the planet.

You seem to be an expert on the subject

 

[SteadyMercury]

I worked in France for awhile. My biggest impressions were:
1. Man those dudes smoke indoors a lot
2. They like wearing pointy shoes
3. Their software developers make a lot less money than ours do
4. North Africans are their version of Mexicans

Aside from that I have nothing to contribute to the thread. I like the french and made some good friends over there.

 

[Decus]

There are good people everywhere. Appreciating what good there is is one thing, trying to perpetuate a myth is quite another.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I worked in France for awhile. My biggest impressions were:
1. Man those dudes smoke indoors a lot
2. They like wearing pointy shoes
3. Their software developers make a lot less money than ours do
4. North Africans are their version of Mexicans

Aside from that I have nothing to contribute to the thread. I like the french and made some good friends over there.

They walk a lot, most - even in rural areas - speak more than one language, buy their groceries often and from tiny markets of fresh food, recycle everything and educate their kids much better than we do ours. They're very friendly and I remember being embarrassed by a young woman hair dresser who came out on the street to point out the location of an ATM and apologized for her English, which was much better than my French.

We really have no reason to dislike them.

 

[SteadyMercury]

There are good people everywhere. Appreciating what good there is is one thing, trying to perpetuate a myth is quite another.

Fair enough, but perpetuating anything wasn't my goal and I hope I didn't come off as giving an opinion that did so.

They walk a lot, most - even in rural areas - speak more than one language

Lol I can assure you there are many french citizens who only speak french. My french is workable but I mainly relied on the two guys with passable english to communicate with the rest of the team.

We really have no reason to dislike them.

Yup.

 

[Sunni Man]

I like french fries.......

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So it is ok if outside forces help the Taliban but it is not ok if the legit government asks for help, I got that right Sunni Man?

The Taliban was the legitimate government of Afghanistan before 9/11 you nitwit........

People that believe JUST as the Taliban believes are running the terrorists in Mali. Remind me how you support the rape and murder of women for disobeying the religion and wanting freedom. Remind me how you support no school and no work for women, remind me how you support 3rd class citizenship for girls and women.

The LEGAL Government of Mali ask for aid. And they are not just getting French forces they are getting troops from several African nations.

 

[there4eyeM]

I like french fries.......

You are what you eat.

 

[Sunni Man]

I like french fries.......

You are what you eat.

So I am a potato??

 

[there4eyeM]

I like french fries.......

You are what you eat.

So I am a potato??

Or French. Take your pick.

 

[Sunni Man]

^^^ Why do you love the "Frogs" so much??

 

[Decus]

I like french fries.......

You are what you eat.

So I am a potato??

Given that potatoes are "American", that would make you a patriotic muslim American with a taste for fast food (another service made popular by Americans). Seems you are a super patriot

 

[Sunni Man]

You are what you eat.

So I am a potato??

Given that potatoes are "American", that would make you a patriotic muslim American with a taste for fast food (another service made popular by Americans). Seems you are a super patriot

Plus, my father was full blooded Irish.....so love of the potato must be in my DNA............