Flling apart Europe is a lot safer than Canada

[Toro]

Your statistics do not differentiate gun homicides from any other form of murder which according to the law is a pretty broad category including unintentional killings such as death from a well placed punch, drunk driving or being an accomplice.

Most have come from guns.

There were 9,616 reported homicides committed with firearms in 2015.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

The total number of reported homicides by weapon was 13,455, or 85.7% of the total 15,696 homicides. The normalized number of homicides committed by firearms is thus 11,218.

13,455 / 85.7% = 11,218

The total population of the United States was 323,127,513.

American FactFinder - Results

Thus the murder rate by firearms was 3.47.

11,218 / 323,127,513 X 100,000 = 3.47.

59% of 3.47 is 2.04. The rate of gun homicides perpetrated by blacks.

3.47 - 2.04 = 1.43 the rate of gun homicides perpetrated by "whites" (including hispanics)

Which is still 50% higher than in Europe.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Your statistics do not differentiate gun homicides from any other form of murder which according to the law is a pretty broad category including unintentional killings such as death from a well placed punch, drunk driving or being an accomplice.

Most have come from guns.

There were 9,616 reported homicides committed with firearms in 2015.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

The total number of reported homicides by weapon was 13,455, or 85.7% of the total 15,696 homicides. The normalized number of homicides committed by firearms is thus 11,218.

13,455 / 85.7% = 11,218

The total population of the United States was 323,127,513.

American FactFinder - Results

Thus the murder rate by firearms was 3.47.

11,218 / 323,127,513 X 100,000 = 3.47.

59% of 3.47 is 2.04. The rate of gun homicides perpetrated by blacks.

3.47 - 2.04 = 1.43 the rate of gun homicides perpetrated by "whites" (including hispanics)

Which is still 50% higher than in Europe.

Not really, if you include Eastern Europe which has even much lower gun ownership rates on the whole than Western Europe, then no it's not true what so ever.

 

[Toro]

His point is that it is not AMERICA that is violent.


It is a few democratic hellholes that are violent and drag our numbers down.

The highest murder rates are in red states.

The highest murder rates are in blue cities.

That almost certainly true. And it wouldn't surprise me since cities are generally more violent and usually more liberal.

But that's also true in European cities as well.

I'd bet that the homicide rate in almost every major American city is higher than almost every major European city.

And you would probably be correct. However, the violence is mainly from gangs that are made up of illegal aliens and other third world imports. A population that Europe has never had to contend with until quite recently. And lo and behold their violent crime rates are exploding, as are their murder rates.

The murder rate by non-Hispanic whites is still 2x+ times that of Europe.

Do you have any statistics regarding murders by gangs?

 

[Toro]

Not really, if you include Eastern Europe which has even much lower gun ownership rates on the whole than Western Europe, then no it's not true what so ever.

Czech Republic 0.75
Poland 0.75
Hungary 1.48
Slovakia 0.88
Romania 1.49
Bulgaria 1.80
Greece 0.85
Croatia 0.87
Serbia 1.13

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

 

[impuretrash]

Your statistics do not differentiate gun homicides from any other form of murder which according to the law is a pretty broad category including unintentional killings such as death from a well placed punch, drunk driving or being an accomplice.

Most have come from guns.

There were 9,616 reported homicides committed with firearms in 2015.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

The total number of reported homicides by weapon was 13,455, or 85.7% of the total 15,696 homicides. The normalized number of homicides committed by firearms is thus 11,218.

13,455 / 85.7% = 11,218

The total population of the United States was 323,127,513.

American FactFinder - Results

Thus the murder rate by firearms was 3.47.

11,218 / 323,127,513 X 100,000 = 3.47.

59% of 3.47 is 2.04. The rate of gun homicides perpetrated by blacks.

3.47 - 2.04 = 1.43 the rate of gun homicides perpetrated by "whites" (including hispanics)

Which is still 50% higher than in Europe.

What do you propose as a solution to this "epidemic" of gun violence then? An all out ban? How would you implement such a policy?

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Not really, if you include Eastern Europe which has even much lower gun ownership rates on the whole than Western Europe, then no it's not true what so ever.

Czech Republic 0.75
Poland 0.75
Hungary 1.48
Slovakia 0.88
Romania 1.49
Bulgaria 1.80
Greece 0.85
Croatia 0.87
Serbia 1.13

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Why leave out Russia, or better yet Lithuania?

Why is Lithuania's murder, and suicide rates so high despite barely having guns?

 

[Toro]

The addition of the Eastern European countries doesn't change the murder rate. It rises from 0.99 to 1.00.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

His point is that it is not AMERICA that is violent.


It is a few democratic hellholes that are violent and drag our numbers down.

The highest murder rates are in red states.

The highest murder rates are in blue cities.

That almost certainly true. And it wouldn't surprise me since cities are generally more violent and usually more liberal.

But that's also true in European cities as well.

IF you had numbers that subtracted out the minority/immigrant populations on both sides, then you would have a clearer picture of if GUNS are the problem.


I have never seen such numbers. I've seen American numbers with minorities subtracted out, and that puts US very close to EU averages.


But I have not seen it with immigrant populations subtracted out of European numbers.

You make me chuckle. Are these minority/immigrants not American ?
You seem to be saying that White America is ok.
But that has been disproved on here already.

There will be parts of the US that approach Western European levels but so what ?

Despite the brain dead crap posted on here, by people who have never left their home town, the fact is that Europe is safer.

 

[Toro]

Why leave out Russia, or better yet Lithuania?

Why is Lithuania's murder, and suicide rates so high despite barely having guns?

Why are you leaving out the 25 countries that contradict your views and pointing out the one or two that support your views? You have to look at the totality of the evidence, not cherry-pick the ones with which you ideologically agree.

Russia is a barely functioning kleptocracy that has massive capital flight because it's own citizens don't believe in it. It is not an OECD member and has no common history with the United States. In fact, it was an adversary and enemy for generations. It was a country on the verge of collapse and isn't a democracy in the Western sense. Nobody aspires to be Russia. America shouldn't be comparing itself to Russia. Russia should be comparing itself to America. America shouldn't be comparing itself to second and third-world countries like Russia because America isn't a second or third-world country. Lithuania is a small country that barely registers in the statistics.

 

[impuretrash]

You make me chuckle. Are these minority/immigrants not American ?
You seem to be saying that White America is ok.
But that has been disproved on here already.

There will be parts of the US that approach Western European levels but so what ?

Despite the brain dead crap posted on here, by people who have never left their home town, the fact is that Europe is safer.

Why do you hate white people so much? Why is it so important to you that you prove they're bad? Aren't you white?

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Why leave out Russia, or better yet Lithuania?

Why is Lithuania's murder, and suicide rates so high despite barely having guns?

Why are you leaving out the 25 countries that contradict your views and pointing out the one or two that support your views?

Russia is a barely functioning kleptocracy that has massive capital flight because it's own citizens don't believe in it. It is not an OECD member and has no common history with the United States. It was a country on the verge of collapse and isn't a democracy in the Western sense. Nobody aspires to be Russia. America shouldn't be comparing itself to Russia. Russia should be comparing itself to America. Lithuania is a small country that barely registers in the statistics.

America shouldn't be comparing itself to second and third-world countries like Russia because America isn't a second or third-world country.

So, you're basically admitting there's more factors than just guns?

Then how come you think that the U.S could only have a higher murder rate from guns?

Why leave out Russia, or better yet Lithuania?

Why is Lithuania's murder, and suicide rates so high despite barely having guns?

Why are you leaving out the 25 countries that contradict your views and pointing out the one or two that support your views? You have to look at the totality of the evidence, not cherry-pick the ones with which you ideologically agree.

Russia is a barely functioning kleptocracy that has massive capital flight because it's own citizens don't believe in it. It is not an OECD member and has no common history with the United States. In fact, it was an adversary and enemy for generations. It was a country on the verge of collapse and isn't a democracy in the Western sense. Nobody aspires to be Russia. America shouldn't be comparing itself to Russia. Russia should be comparing itself to America. America shouldn't be comparing itself to second and third-world countries like Russia because America isn't a second or third-world country. Lithuania is a small country that barely registers in the statistics.

Why do you just focus on the U.S vs Europe?

That's not the entire World.

Serbia's poorer than Lithuania, Serbia's got much more guns, but much less murder, or suicide.

How come?

There's so many examples which prove you wrong.

The best is Jamaica which saw massive murder rate increases after gun control.

 

[Toro]

You make me chuckle. Are these minority/immigrants not American ?
You seem to be saying that White America is ok.
But that has been disproved on here already.

There will be parts of the US that approach Western European levels but so what ?

Despite the brain dead crap posted on here, by people who have never left their home town, the fact is that Europe is safer.

FTR I am generally agnostic on gun control. I have heard some very persuasive arguments against the notion that further gun control would prevent tragedies like what happened in Las Vegas. It is, whether we like it or not, a constitutional right that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court. And even if we banned all guns, it would do little to reduce the number of guns in the country, particularly in criminal hands.

What I am arguing against is the notion that widespread gun ownership makes America safer. I am open to be persuaded otherwise, but the numbers appear to argue against it. Nobody in this thread arguing that guns make America safer has posted any empirical evidence to support their argument. They argue that there are statistics to support their view but haven't posted any.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Why leave out Russia, or better yet Lithuania?

Why is Lithuania's murder, and suicide rates so high despite barely having guns?

Why are you leaving out the 25 countries that contradict your views and pointing out the one or two that support your views? You have to look at the totality of the evidence, not cherry-pick the ones with which you ideologically agree.

Russia is a barely functioning kleptocracy that has massive capital flight because it's own citizens don't believe in it. It is not an OECD member and has no common history with the United States. In fact, it was an adversary and enemy for generations. It was a country on the verge of collapse and isn't a democracy in the Western sense. Nobody aspires to be Russia. America shouldn't be comparing itself to Russia. Russia should be comparing itself to America. America shouldn't be comparing itself to second and third-world countries like Russia because America isn't a second or third-world country. Lithuania is a small country that barely registers in the statistics.

Is it also guns which make it so White Americans are more likely to support violent wars than their White European counterparts?

Is it so hard to admit that White Americans just seem to be more violent, probably due to their Colonialist roots.

 

[Toro]

So, you're basically admitting there's more factors than just guns?

Of course. I haven't argued otherwise.

But you are cherry-picking your examples and offering nothing empirically to support your view.

Feel free to post supporting statistics.

Why do you just focus on the U.S vs Europe?

That's not the entire World.

Because America doesn't compare itself to second- and third-world countries. We don't compare our economy to Ghana's, or our health system to Burma's, or our military to Uruguay's.

You're Polish, right? Do you compare the Polish national football team to how Surinam does at soccer? When Poland gets beat, do you say "Well, we should compare ourselves to Fiji." Of course not. You compare yourself to other similar countries.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

So, you're basically admitting there's more factors than just guns?

Of course. I haven't argued otherwise.

But you are cherry-picking your examples and offering nothing empirically to support your view.

Feel free to post supporting statistics.

Why do you just focus on the U.S vs Europe?

That's not the entire World.

Because America doesn't compare itself to second- and third-world countries. We don't compare our economy to Ghana's, or our health system to Burma's, or our military to Uruguay's.

You're Polish, right? Do you compare the Polish national football team to how Surinam does at soccer? When Poland gets beat, do you say "Well, we should compare ourselves to Fiji." Of course not. You compare yourself to other similar countries.

Well, if you want to compare similar countries.

Lithuania, `and Latvia very, very similar countries linguistically, genetically, historically, etc.

But, here's the thing Lithuania has more murder, and suicide, despite having less guns.

How come?

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Scotland has more murder than England, and Wales, despite being similar, and get this Scotland has less guns than England.

How come?

 

[impuretrash]

FTR I am generally agnostic on gun control. I have heard some very persuasive arguments against the notion that further gun control would prevent tragedies like what happened in Las Vegas. It is, whether we like it or not, a constitutional right that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court. And even if we banned all guns, it would do little to reduce the number of guns in the country, particularly in criminal hands.

What I am arguing against is the notion that widespread gun ownership makes America safer. I am open to be persuaded otherwise, but the numbers appear to argue against it. Nobody in this thread arguing that guns make America safer has posted any empirical evidence to support their argument. They argue that there are statistics to support their view but haven't posted any.

Stats, shmats. The only way to prove gun ownership doesn't discourage crime is to outlaw them and see what happens. I think one side effect is that home invasions would skyrocket. People will end up being murdered, raped and kidnapped right in their own homes.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

You make me chuckle. Are these minority/immigrants not American ?
You seem to be saying that White America is ok.
But that has been disproved on here already.

There will be parts of the US that approach Western European levels but so what ?

Despite the brain dead crap posted on here, by people who have never left their home town, the fact is that Europe is safer.

FTR I am generally agnostic on gun control. I have heard some very persuasive arguments against the notion that further gun control would prevent tragedies like what happened in Las Vegas. It is, whether we like it or not, a constitutional right that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court. And even if we banned all guns, it would do little to reduce the number of guns in the country, particularly in criminal hands.

What I am arguing against is the notion that widespread gun ownership makes America safer. I am open to be persuaded otherwise, but the numbers appear to argue against it. Nobody in this thread arguing that guns make America safer has posted any empirical evidence to support their argument. They argue that there are statistics to support their view but haven't posted any.

FTR, your gun control ,or lack of it, is something that you need to work out yourselves. My beef is that I see constant,"Europe at war" threads on this board that are just fed by ignorance and a fair bit of mischief. That just isnt the case.
Although I do think you need some measure of control.

 

[westwall]

His point is that it is not AMERICA that is violent.


It is a few democratic hellholes that are violent and drag our numbers down.

The highest murder rates are in red states.

The highest murder rates are in blue cities.

That almost certainly true. And it wouldn't surprise me since cities are generally more violent and usually more liberal.

But that's also true in European cities as well.

I'd bet that the homicide rate in almost every major American city is higher than almost every major European city.

And you would probably be correct. However, the violence is mainly from gangs that are made up of illegal aliens and other third world imports. A population that Europe has never had to contend with until quite recently. And lo and behold their violent crime rates are exploding, as are their murder rates.

The murder rate by non-Hispanic whites is still 2x+ times that of Europe.

Do you have any statistics regarding murders by gangs?

Please provide a link for that claim.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

The highest murder rates are in red states.

The highest murder rates are in blue cities.

That almost certainly true. And it wouldn't surprise me since cities are generally more violent and usually more liberal.

But that's also true in European cities as well.

I'd bet that the homicide rate in almost every major American city is higher than almost every major European city.

And you would probably be correct. However, the violence is mainly from gangs that are made up of illegal aliens and other third world imports. A population that Europe has never had to contend with until quite recently. And lo and behold their violent crime rates are exploding, as are their murder rates.

The murder rate by non-Hispanic whites is still 2x+ times that of Europe.

Do you have any statistics regarding murders by gangs?

Please provide a link for that claim.

If you include Russia, then no I don't think it would be true.

Russia has low gun ownership......