faith-based support groups for men addicted to pornography

[dilloduck]

A lot of interesting information but I don't think this dicussion will be as productive as it could be until people start to agree on some definitions here such as "addiction" and "rape".

 

[Hobbit]

A lot of interesting information but I don't think this dicussion will be as productive as it could be until people start to agree on some definitions here such as "addiction" and "rape".

Agreed. That's why I've conceded the point and bowed out. I have yet to see any real evidence refuting me, but enough people seem to know what they're talking about, so I'm conceding that I'm probably wrong, and bowing out unless the issue starts actually going somewhere.

Please read your own signature file:
" Video games don't make kids violent."
Porn does not make rapists or pedophiles.

Read the rest of the sig. It's a joke, not to mention that some people actually do run around in dark rooms, chomping magic pills while listening to repetitive, electronic music.

You might also read the part about not arguing with someone you have to educate first. You're not responding to the points I'm making. I must therefore point them out and distinguish what the points are, plus, you're notorious for twisting my words to say what you want them to, therefore, it's not worth it to argue with you, end of story.

Also, I do think violent video games do have a sometimes negative mental effect on people, but that's for another thread, which I think I'll go start.

 

[elephant]

Agreed. That's why I've conceded the point and bowed out.

Actually it is because -just say it - you are wrong.

I could cite numerous journal articles arguing the exact opposite of what you say. I could also help you find studies done that clearly show that the MORE open a society is about pornography, that FEWER rapes are committed. I imagine your local library can help you.

Read the rest of the sig. It's a joke, not to mention that some people actually do run around in dark rooms, chomping magic pills while listening to repetitive, electronic music.

Is this a point I am suppose to debate with you?

You might also read the part about not arguing with someone you have to educate first. You're not responding to the points I'm making. I must therefore point them out and distinguish what the points are, plus, you're notorious for twisting my words to say what you want them to, therefore, it's not worth it to argue with you, end of story.

First, we are not "argu[ing]". We are debating.

Second, you just ignore points I make - why? Does being a priest cause pedophilia? Have you ever taken a statistics class to help you better understand the relationship between statistical significance and causality?

I try comment on each part of your posts - not just the parts I can refute.

I had no idea I was "notorious". I am simply pointing out that your words lack substance. I do not "twist" anything. I find your points to be weak and at times ambiguous. It seems you are leaving yourself an out or the world is all relative - like a liberal might do. If you took a harder line in support of your own thread it would not be as easy to pick on you.

More simply - choose your words more carefully.

Also, I do think violent video games do have a sometimes negative mental effect on people, but that's for another thread, which I think I'll go start.

It is good to be consistent.

I look forward to our future debates - with debated, no I mean, abated breath.

 

[Said1]

Agreed. That's why I've conceded the point and bowed out. I have yet to see any real evidence refuting me, but enough people seem to know what they're talking about, so I'm conceding that I'm probably wrong, and bowing out unless the issue starts actually going somewhere

You have shown no evidence either, except for the stuff that PROVES what we are saying.

I repeat.....force to a rapists = foreplay

Rape = forced sexual intercourse

You could argue different situations have different causes which lead to forced sexual intercourse and I would accept that. Easy enough, eh?

 

[Hobbit]

I have repeatedly stated that I have conceded the point of rape being about control over and over in hopes that we could move on and go back to the point of the thread, benifits or drawbacks of pornography addiction centers. Yet every time, I keep getting provoked into more debate. Like I said, I'm through. Provoking me is not going to work. Said, Shattered...move on.

If you want, here's final clarification on what *I* think. You've provoked thought in me, but now it's just getting annoying and this opinion is not going to change.

Ok, a rapist gets turned on by shows of power. Forcing somebody to do something against their will is a show of power. Being turned on means wanting to have sex. Raping someone solves both problems. They force somebody to do something, turning them on, and that thing that they force the person to do is sex, thus satisfying that urge. If you want to say that makes it completely and totally about power, be my guest. I interpret that as being about getting turned on and having sex.

Now, what you have convinced me of is that for most rapists, the power trip is the turn on. I was previously convinced that while that was sometimes true, it was often a case of the girl trying to stop them just short of the 'goal' and them not wanting to stop. Also, I came to think of those guys (the ones who just won't stop) as power freaks as well, since they usually don't stop because they like being the dominating one in the relationship and don't like it when their girlfriend tells them to stop.

Now, back to elephant, I took two years of statistical analysis and research methods at a state-funded high school for the gifted to prepare me for science fair, which was required. I have also taken a statistics class in college. I know that correlation does not mean causality, but, with corroborating evidence, it can indicate causality. The corroborating evidence is the sworn testimony of people who used to be porn-addicted rapists who say that they think their porn addiction was a contributing factor to their rape habit. It may not be concrete, but it's certainly not worth dismissing without consideration.

For clarification, Statistics and Causality 101, as told by two supervillian's henchmen working on the loading docks in the game, "The Operative: No One Lives Forever."

That sure is a lot of beer.
Yes, the men in this organization drink quite a bit of it.
Why do you think that is?
Well, studies show that, on average, criminals drink up to three times as much alcohol as the average law-abiding citizen.
Are you saying alcohol causes crime?
Of course not, just that there is a correlation. It could be the opposite, that criminals must drink quite a bit to drown out their concience, or it could be that a genetic predisposition to crime also gives one a genetic predisposition to drinking.

The rest of the conversation is a moral and ethical thesis on placing blame on the criminal, despite circumstances that may have contributed to his lawlessness.

 

[Bonnie]

That's sorta what i was thinking. Wouldn't this just result in the rapist choosing another "weapon"?

Which is why states are reluctant to do this among it being viewed as cruel. There is also chemical castration I beleive?
Anyone who is really intent on doing harm to another will find a way unless the emotional/mental problem is addressed, or they are just imprisoned forever.

 

[Said1]

I have repeatedly stated that I have conceded the point of rape being about control over and over in hopes that we could move on and go back to the point of the thread, benifits or drawbacks of pornography addiction centers. Yet every time, I keep getting provoked into more debate. Like I said, I'm through. Provoking me is not going to work. Said, Shattered...move on.

If you want, here's final clarification on what *I* think. You've provoked thought in me, but now it's just getting annoying and this opinion is not going to change.

Ok, a rapist gets turned on by shows of power. Forcing somebody to do something against their will is a show of power. Being turned on means wanting to have sex. Raping someone solves both problems. They force somebody to do something, turning them on, and that thing that they force the person to do is sex, thus satisfying that urge. If you want to say that makes it completely and totally about power, be my guest. I interpret that as being about getting turned on and having sex.

Now, what you have convinced me of is that for most rapists, the power trip is the turn on. I was previously convinced that while that was sometimes true, it was often a case of the girl trying to stop them just short of the 'goal' and them not wanting to stop. Also, I came to think of those guys (the ones who just won't stop) as power freaks as well, since they usually don't stop because they like being the dominating one in the relationship and don't like it when their girlfriend tells them to stop.

You do know we aren't bra burning men hating bitches, right?

I'm glad you made the connection, it wasn't clear before. There are different circumstances which lead to rape, but the end result is the same, forced sexual intercourse, which is control.

 

[dilloduck]

Which is why states are reluctant to do this among it being viewed as cruel. There is also chemical castration I beleive?
Anyone who is really intent on doing harm to another will find a way unless the emotional/mental problem is addressed, or they are just imprisoned forever.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/03/inmate.castration.ap/
DALLAS, Texas (AP) -- A former YMCA camp counselor who admitted molesting more than 40 boys underwent voluntary castration this week in Texas, the only state where the prison system allows the surgery.

David Wayne Jones, a former employee of the East Dallas YMCA, is the second inmate to have the surgery since a 1997 law legalized the procedure.

Jones is expected to complete his sentence this week before facing further prosecution for an unresolved sex abuse charge, said Judy Johnson, who heads the Texas Department of Criminal Justice's sex-offender treatment program.

Johnson told The Dallas Morning News in Wednesday's editions that she believes castration will help Jones control his urges and allow him to benefit more from therapy. He had previously been taking a testosterone-suppressing drug that mimics the effect of physical castration.

 

[dilloduck]

http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Women/rape.htm

another article for those interested in further discussion

 

[elephant]

Now, back to elephant, I took two years of statistical analysis and research methods at a state-funded high school for the gifted to prepare me for science fair, which was required. I have also taken a statistics class in college. I know that correlation does not mean causality, but, with corroborating evidence, it can indicate causality. The corroborating evidence is the sworn testimony of people who used to be porn-addicted rapists who say that they think their porn addiction was a contributing factor to their rape habit. It may not be concrete, but it's certainly not worth dismissing without consideration.

Oh nevermind, it was state-funded. Everyone is special according to the state.

Correlation only says there exists a linear relationship between data sets and was probably not the word for which you were looking. Granger causality is not straightforward causality (not like the layman's term at least) and in this case it can likely be shown both ways. This might mean that the "granger cause" lies somewhere outside the current discussion - like genetics or childhood abuse. I do not have the data sets or I would check for myself.

I hope the science fair was fun and...

GO MATHLETES!!

Did you take applied statistics at college or a class in the math department?

By the way - you now officially 'ROCK' by my very high standards.

 

[Hobbit]

Oh nevermind, it was state-funded. Everyone is special according to the state.

Correlation only says there exists a linear relationship between data sets and was probably not the word for which you were looking. Granger causality is not straightforward causality (not like the layman's term at least) and in this case it can likely be shown both ways. This might mean that the "granger cause" lies somewhere outside the current discussion - like genetics or childhood abuse. I do not have the data sets or I would check for myself.

I hope the science fair was fun and...

GO MATHLETES!!

Did you take applied statistics at college or a class in the math department?

By the way - you now officially 'ROCK' by my very high standards.

Thanks. Oh, and the stats wasn't applied state, it was estats (engineering). All engineers are required to take it and it's basically what statistics methods typically apply to engineering. Oh, and before you ask, computer engineering.

 

[archangel]

Thanks. Oh, and the stats wasn't applied state, it was estats (engineering). All engineers are required to take it and it's basically what statistics methods typically apply to engineering. Oh, and before you ask, computer engineering.

Combat engineering...yuk...sent to OCS in the Army for Engineering OCS...really boring...resigned commission to go back to combat Air Cav...a Buck Sgt I preferred to be! VN rocked and so did Col.Moore! yeah 7th Cav reborne! :2guns:

 

[Hobbit]

Combat engineering...yuk...sent to OCS in the Army for Engineering OCS...really boring...resigned commission to go back to combat Air Cav...a Buck Sgt I preferred to be! VN rocked and so did Col.Moore! yeah 7th Cav reborne! :2guns:

Um, I said computer engineering, not combat. I'm not in the service, at least not yet. If I join, it will be after college.

 

[Eightball]

Uh, maybe I know a little something about rapists because I actually listen to what reformed rapists say instead of some feminist speculating everything in order to make herself feel better. I would think the rapists probably know more than you, and I'm just repeating what they say. Additionally, some of you seem to be confining your conclusions to serial rapists. Just like serial killers aren't typical of all murderers, serial rapists are far different from your average rapist. I think the statistic reads that more than 90% of rape victims knew their attacker, which confines serial rapes to less that 10% of all rapes. When considering that non-serial rapists typically don't rape more than once, or at least not more than one victim, while serial rapists rape repeatedly, you must decrease even further the percentage of all rapists who are serial rapists.

Do you really think there's such a thing as a reformed rapist?

I think they fall into a similar category as molesters. They are not reformable as I have read and heard from experts.

Castration or Lobotomys seem to be the only answer for these deviates.

 

[Merlin1047]

That actually sounds like a good endorsement for porn if you ask me. Stay home and masturbate to internet porn instead of raping people. That's what I do.

LOL. Well I hope you and Rosie have a long and happy relationship. Perhaps if more people had your philosophy, there would be fewer liberals in this country.

 

[Avatar4321]

That's absurd. I know plenty of people who watch porn on a regular basis including myself and none of us are in any danger of turning into a gay person or a child molestor.


And as for this quote:
"Cocaine, of course, causes a few other chemical reactions in other places of the body"

How can something be different and the same. This is clearly just some nonsense made up by fundamentalist Christians. I've worked in a substance abuse clinic and dealt with cocaine addicts. You aren't going to fool me with this bullshit.

Those who are addicted always resist admitting they are addicted. Its a matter of pride. But pornography can be very addictive. And it is very destructive. It does destroy lives.

Our lives are made up of the little things we do. Our brains are like a computer but unfortunately there isnt a delete key. You put stuff in your head, it stays in your head and ends up coming out in your life. Huge Fortune 500 companies will pay millions for a thirty second ad during the super bowl. If watching an ad for 30 seconds can affect people so much for these huge companies to pay that much money do you honestly think that looking at and watching pornography is harmless?

 

[Avatar4321]

But what is it about porn that is addiction? It should not be something that causes a chemical response, like drugs or nicotine. All you are doing is looking at images? How does that become addicting?

And since most porn addicts are men, how would porn addiction lead to boob jobs?

Again I have to say its sad that the educational system in this nation is failing.

Gabriella, you say you like sex. So I assume you understand that there is a chemical reaction in your brain and in the male brains that triggers hormones to enjoy sex correct? And I assume your fiancee/spouse enjoys looking at you correct? Is it really that difficult to understand what a powerful chemical reaction can occur in your significant others brain simply by looking at you? I mean we are talking about sexual stimulation. Obviously youve experienced sexual arousal. How difficult is it to understand why that would be so addicting? Seriously here why are you asking questions that are so obvious.

The second question is alittle more complicated. I can understand that question since we normally wouldnt think about this, but did you ever consider that the ones getting the boob jobs are men? There is an abnormal amount of men becoming transexuals nowadays because of modern science. Not to mention the fact that men get the impression that big breasts are whats important and pressure their significant others to get breast augmentation or some horny women sees porn and thinks that getting enlarged breasts is something she wants to look sexy. Alittle more complicated yes but still not really that difficult to understand is it?

 

[Avatar4321]

Actually, we guys have a better perspective on it, and I've never bought the "power" thing. The reason we guys have a better perspective on raging sex drives is the same reason girls have a better perspective on pregnancy and birth, though to a much greater extent since girls *do* have some sex drive, but guys can never be pregnant. To give you a little insight, imagine this: Every 20 seconds to 20 minutes, you have a sudden, uncontrollable urge to have sex. You feel like you could hump anything that moves. This never stops, except when you're unconcious or dead, and sometimes not even then. When guys rape, it's almost always about power. Still don't believe me? I've talked to rapists who were incarcerated, released, and dedicated their lives to keeping others from making the same mistake, and they'll almost always tell you they raped the girl because they were horny and she wouldn't put out. In fact, most rapes occur when a guy starts wanting to get intimate, but the girl says no. The guy's really horny, so he ignores her and has sex anyway. No power struggle there, just a guy who's a slave to his hormones.

You know. I cant help but feel people are arguing past each other with the power/sex debate on rape. After all power is a powerful arousal mechanism for sex. Guys feel powerful having sex. Some women do too. After all thats where the sub/dom sex culture comes from. Instead of being so vicious in the arguments back and forth maybe you guys should realize you might both be right. And just FYI I'm not saying this to you specifically hobbit im talking to everyone who was arguing over this one.

 

[Avatar4321]

The answer is simple. Peopld don't rape people because they are horny. Masturbating is much easier. And if cocaine had the same effects on the brain as porn then I should be dead after watching some finite amount of porn. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make you any smarter. I think my analogy is funny because it points out just how absurd hobbit's beliefs are.

Spiritual death is even worse than physical death, and you my friend are spiritually dead.

 

[Avatar4321]

And you're basing your opinion on what feminists who wouldn't even dirty themselves by talking to a rapist thinks. Which do you think is more credible. Also, that may be just 5 people, but these 5 people knew dozens, if not hundreds of other rapists from prison. They said that it's hardly ever about 'power' and that, while it's completely the rapist's fault, girls would be far less likely to be raped if they would avoid situations that make them vulerable, such as going up to a guy's room by themselves. Revealing clothing doesn't help, either.

Besides, I'd take the known facts from a few sample rapists over the speculations of feminist 'experts' with no corroborating evidence anyday.

Ok this one im going to have to agree with shattered on. you didnt support yourself and you are arguing against things she didnt really say.