Exxon/Mobil Paid No Federal Income Tax in 2009

[Jarhead]

WOW nice leap. However, somewhere along the way you forgot that the focus was to take the drilling rights away from companies who avoid paying their share by exploiting loopholes, using dummy corporations, moving offices overseas and etc.

Don't engage in such practices and you won't have to face the consequences. Aren't you righties supposed to be all about personal responsibility??

Yep. We do. But we alos laugh at those that bend over backwards to find somewhere, somehow, how the corporations may have done something unethical.

If they broke the law, fine them.

But if you need to play semantics with the law to claim they broke it, then the time has come to back off.

LOL Do you laugh at yourself seeing how republicans/conservatives/independents in name only (actually hardcore republicans) bend over backwards to find somewhere, somehow, how obama may have done something unethical?? Sorry I just noticed the parallel and thought I would ask. Maybe the time has come to back off?" LOL

The core of the argument is to point out something that is WRONG with the system and draw attention to it so you can see about correcting the problem. Avoiding the facts of the argument as the previous poster did, and as you did, does nothing to further the argument and is less than honest.

BTW quoting the whole post and only cherrypicking one sentence out of it to respond to is very dishonest of you.

First:

Yes I do find it amusing and concerning when people pick apart every move President Obama makes. He farts and people say it is becuase he ate Marxist food.

It makes it quite difficult to lend credibility to true and accurate AND SOMETIMES necessary criticsm.

When did I cherry pick your post? I dont even know how to do it ot be frank. I hit reply and I type away.

If I did it, it certainly was not intentional, and I dare you to find a single response of mine anywhere else where I did it. I DONT KNOW HOW TO NOR DO I CARE TO KNOW HOW TO.

 

[drsmith1072]

Of course they didn't. What would make it different than any other year... From 2008:

Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes | Reuters

Guess what, bub - All Taxes Are Eventually Paid For By Consumers.

Companies price their tax burden into their products and services.

You are right, we consumers do pay Exxon's taxes. Which means we are paying taxes to foreign governments because of the tax burden Congress put on these corporations. Some will say that Corporations should be taxed at a higher percentage (which if they were we, the consumers would be paying) but their comes a point when the cost of a product (in this case doing business as a corporation under the taxing authority of the U.S.) becomes too expensive and customers (in this case multi-national corporations) begin going elsewhere (in this case The Bahamas and elsewhere) to purchase their goods.

I'm not saying corporations should not be taxed, but what I am saying is that Congress has priced us out of the market so to speak.

Immie

Really? Do you happen to have any specifics on the numbers for the "tax burden Congress put on these corporations."?

Is it really as high and imposing as you are implying?

BTW what are they purchasing in "the bahamas and elsewhere"?

 

[Vast LWC]

First:

Yes I do find it amusing and concerning when people pick apart every move President Obama makes. He farts and people say it is becuase he ate Marxist food.

It makes it quite difficult to lend credibility to true and accurate AND SOMETIMES necessary criticsm.

And to be perfectly fair: MSNBC, and the more liberal of the media sources, used to pick apart every little tiny thing that Bush did too. When he farted, it was some sort of evil Capitalist plot to increase the Greenhouse gas levels.

Now don't get me wrong, Bush did do a hell of a lot of things wrong, and I'll be the first to point them out...

...but this whole media frenzy over the tiniest minutiae in the lives of the last president and this one is WAY over the top, on both sides. Damn talking heads.

 

[Vast LWC]

Exxon's net profit was close to 7% last year - and nearly 10% in 2008 (which was an oil asset bubble year).

Return on Assets is 7.5%, not bad considering the intensive capital investment requirement - and certainly not exorbitant.

As to what rate they pay for leases, a better question is: why does the Federal Government own so much land? It would be better used and maintained in private hands.

That figure does not include any of the funds that exxon re-invested into itself to further growth of the company, which would in fact still be profit.

 

[drsmith1072]

You are right, we consumers do pay Exxon's taxes. Which means we are paying taxes to foreign governments because of the tax burden Congress put on these corporations. Some will say that Corporations should be taxed at a higher percentage (which if they were we, the consumers would be paying) but their comes a point when the cost of a product (in this case doing business as a corporation under the taxing authority of the U.S.) becomes too expensive and customers (in this case multi-national corporations) begin going elsewhere (in this case The Bahamas and elsewhere) to purchase their goods.

I'm not saying corporations should not be taxed, but what I am saying is that a Congress has priced us out of the market so to speak.

Immie

Immie? That's exactly what they've done. Exxon/Mobile pays HUGE Taxes in the cost of doing business. Anyone that thinks otherwise isn't looking deep enough.

And what I am saying is that if Congress didn't make it so expensive to do business in the U.S. fewer companies would seek domicile in other lands.

If you have a vending machine selling soda for $2 a can and right next to your machine someone puts another machine in selling soda for $1.5, which machine do you think thirsty customers are going to empty first?

Same principal applies here. If I can pay less in taxes by domiciling my corporation in The Bahamas then you can bet that is what I am going to do.

Immie

still no specifics?

As for your soda it depends upon the brand name. If there is Dr Pepper in one machine for $2 and the other machine has MR. Pibb for $1.50 I am paying the $2. LOL Quality of the product is worth the extra fifty cents.

It just amazes me how far some will go to defend and justify a corporation hiding m,oney to avoid paying taxes while they still receive the full benefits of being an American corporation.

BTW don't you think wages and benefits for American employees is more of a deciding factor than taxes??

 

[Skull Pilot]

If a business shows no net profit, why would they pay any income taxes?

Are you saying that the companies in question made no net profit?

If a business pays out most of what it earns to stockholders, taxes are collected on the gains of those stocks.

Doesn't this depend on whether the stockholders are American citizens or not?



Where did they buy the equipment??



Where are those employees located and what is their nationality?

If a business contracts work out to another company, taxes are collected

Where is the other company located and where is it's base

Don't worry folks the money that Exxon made and spent caused many millions of tax dollars to flow into government's itchy little hands.

Ok well if you say so then it must be true. LOL

yes because Exxon has no US citizens as employees right?

they do absolutely no business in the US right?

They have no US stock holders right?

Maybe we should just declare Exxon persona non gratis and kick them out of the country.

While we're at it can we kick every other slacker out who gets more from the government than they pay in taxes?

 

[drsmith1072]

You are right, we consumers do pay Exxon's taxes. Which means we are paying taxes to foreign governments because of the tax burden Congress put on these corporations. Some will say that Corporations should be taxed at a higher percentage (which if they were we, the consumers would be paying) but their comes a point when the cost of a product (in this case doing business as a corporation under the taxing authority of the U.S.) becomes too expensive and customers (in this case multi-national corporations) begin going elsewhere (in this case The Bahamas and elsewhere) to purchase their goods.

I'm not saying corporations should not be taxed, but what I am saying is that a Congress has priced us out of the market so to speak.

Immie

Corporations are not going to The Bahamas to buy stuff. They are funneling income through offshore entities to avoid taxes. That's all they are doing.

Generally, lower corporate taxes are better, and it is rational for companies to seek to pay the lowest amount possible in taxes. However, corporations are not paying taxes to foreign governments when taxes in those jurisdictions are effectively zero.

Exactly my point!

The Bahamas make it worth while for these corporations to go elsewhere.

Would you have preferred it if my example had said that the new machine gave sodas away for free?

I'm not saying that we should not tax these companies. What I am saying is that we have priced ourselves out of the market. If we don't want corporations running to other countries then we have to bring our prices (tax rates) down to a point that makes it more cost effective to do business here than elsewhere. If we don't these companies are going to go somewhere else. I don't blame them, but it would sure be nice if more of those tax dollars came into the good ole U S of A than were sheltered on foreign soil.

That's all I'm saying.

Immie

Since employee wages and benefits are also a major deciding factor for companies who choose to take their business overseas while still remaing and exploiting the benefits of being an American company should we also get rid of the minimum wage so companies can set whatever wages they think are appropriate for the job??

I am sure that will draw companies away from where ever they went to and back to the USA?? Oh wait that is one of the reasons that they decided to move in the first place. LOL

You guys seem dead set on focusing on taxes but there is more to a company moving operations overseas than taxes. So what would you do about the American employee??

 

[drsmith1072]

Good luck running your car without any gasoline - or paying for $7+ gas if we complete destroy all domestic production.

We can always count on Green Bug-eyed Incompetents, (such as you) who are unable to compete in the free markets, to call on the Government to punish those who dare to be successful, especially when they have overcome the burdens the government has layered upon them to make the task more difficult.

Who said anything about stopping domestic production?

They'll be plenty of other folks more than willing to step into the gap.

Did American entrepreneurship suddenly disappear overnight while I wasn't looking?

Did giant Oil Conglomerates like Exxon suddenly become the only possible means of producing oil at some point?

It's not really that difficult a concept. You see actions have consequences. If you overregulate/tax/burden an industry, they go elsewhere to produce. It's not rocket science. In fact, it's rather basic economics.

So by continually arguing to punish them for being succesessful, because of the laws of nature, you are stopping domestic production.

Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean it's not reality.

Since we are obviously only presenting opinions here, and some times it has nothing to do with tax rates/regulation and instead has to do with an American company wanting to make as much profit as possible so they move their operations overseas so they can pay 3rd world employees a fraction of what they would have paid their American counterparts. However when they did this and "saved" all of that money did they pass that onto the consumer who now has less money because he is out of work or had to settle for a lower paying job because their job went overseas?? HELL NO.
They pocket that and retain the same price they had before and despite that, IF anything should affect their now inflated bottom line they immediately try to find a way to retain their profit margin by laying off a few more of their remaining American based employees. Which in turn hurts the American economy beause with more people out of work or settling for lower paying jobs there is less money entering the market through consumer spending. However, what do these American companies care about that as long as they can retain their profit margins and be counted as having rights of citizens (freedom of speech, I still wonder what else they qualify for) in almost every way but one?

It's all about greed and last time I heard I thought that was a sin and was a bad thing? LOL

 

[boedicca]

It's not a sin to act in one's rational self interest in a manner that does not coerce anyone else.

You are not forced to purchase Exxon products. If you oppose their business model that much, buy your gasoline elsewhere. It's really simple.

Just don't be a coward and expect the government to punish them for law abiding behavior just because you don't like it. That's what weenies do.

 

[drsmith1072]

Exxon's net profit was close to 7% last year - and nearly 10% in 2008 (which was an oil asset bubble year).

Return on Assets is 7.5%, not bad considering the intensive capital investment requirement - and certainly not exorbitant.

As to what rate they pay for leases, a better question is: why does the Federal Government own so much land? It would be better used and maintained in private hands.

so you support coorporate welfare for mega corporations?
Diversion attempt ignored.

Lowering taxes isnt corporate welfare.

The government has no money. It's the taxpayers money. Sound fiscal policy where people and corporations of people keep more of their own money is not welfare.

Stop being dishonest and trying to redefine terms.

Corporations of people?? LOL talk about dishonestly trying to redefine terms. LOL

Although you may not be far from the truth based on the recent scotus ruling giving corporations the right to freedom of speech. I say why stop at giving corporations the freedom of speech. Let's make them just like everyone else and set them up at the same rate every other indiviual pays based on their income.

 

[boedicca]

Are shareholders people?

Are employees people?

Do the large number of suppliers and vendors to Exxon whose livelihoods depend upon Exxon's business employ people?

 

[drsmith1072]

I'd rather have Greedy Corporations than Greedy Government.

Then you are a damn FOOL!!

Corporation DO NOT care about you or anything or anyone else...they are NOT people...they only care about its own GROWTH...ALL ELSE BE DAMNED.

Do. You. Understand. What. That. Means?

Why don't you stop spouting your NUT-WING BS and get a clue for once in your life man.

Sheeesh!!

Corporations are businesses. Businesses are made up of people and provide jobs for people. There is no corporation in existance that doenst involve people.

Your unhealthy obsession with corporations is perplexing and just not right. They are useful tools to promote economic growth such as sole proprietorships, partnerships, and LLCs.

There is nothing wrong with people banding together to work in a common industry and producing goods and services that other people desire. In fact, it's a pretty darn good way to live.

Yes they are made up of people and provide jobs. However, when those jobs and people are in another country and not American citizens how does theat help the American employee? How is that good for America??

Oh and nice continued strawman about how if we believe that American corporations who do everything that they can and exploit every loophole they can find to avoid paying taxes to the country that made their success possible we are somehow against "people banding together to work in a common industry and producing goods and services that other people desire."

Do you guys one the right EVER have an honest debate where you don't make up shite and attribute it the other side in a desperate attempt to demonize them??

 

[Big Fitz]

Think Progress ExxonMobil paid no federal income tax in 2009.

exxon-mobilLast week, Forbes magazine published what the top U.S. corporations paid in taxes last year. “Most egregious,” Forbes notes, is General Electric, which “generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.” Big Oil giant Exxon Mobil, which last year reported a record $45.2 billion profit, paid the most taxes of any corporation, but none of it went to the IRS:

Exxon tries to limit the tax pain with the help of 20 wholly owned subsidiaries domiciled in the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands that (legally) shelter the cash flow from operations in the likes of Angola, Azerbaijan and Abu Dhabi. No wonder that of $15 billion in income taxes last year, Exxon paid none of it to Uncle Sam, and has tens of billions in earnings permanently reinvested overseas.
<more>

Game, Set, Match argument for flat taxation, no exemptions or subsidies.

Not to mention, conclusive proof, we as a nation are overtaxed.

 

[boedicca]

Double taxation of overseas profits just puts American businesses at a huge disadvantage. The only way to make that work is to set the tax rate below that of other countries so that moving international subs to a cost plus basis and moving profits onshore is more beneficial than keeping the current structure. That sounds good to me.

 

[drsmith1072]

I'd rather have Greedy Corporations than Greedy Government.

Ahh ! but now we have the worst of both worlds a greedy government ran by greedy coprorations.

Then let's vote the Democrats out.

and replace them with what?? The same big government republicans that ran the show for 6 years and did almost every act that you are now trying to use to attack the democrats?? LOL

 

[drsmith1072]

if you dont have taxes so high they will be paying their fair share because it will be more effort to go elsewhere.

Why is this concept so difficult for you to understand. If you overtax people, the people with means will leave and those without will suffer.

But no, of course you don't understand it. You have to "stick it" to those rich people. Because by making them move elsewhere and placing more burden on the poor we are supposed to feel better about it.

Umm seems like thay have already gone elsewhere.
They will not quit selling product to the USA. We are their consumers.
Well I am not, I have been boycotting Exxon for years. I will have them on their knees soon
Well I will not, but WE could.
Consumers collectively have tremendous power if they were only smart enough to use it.

I also do no business with any company that has N.A. on the end of their name.

if they've already gone than bring them back by lowering taxes and ending the overregulation

Seriously, how difficult is this to understand?!

based on the difference between foreign employee wages and benefits and American employee wages and benefits, do you actually believe that the two steps that you listed will bring them back?? Really?

Funny thing is that i have yet to see any REAL numbers concerning how these corporations were overtaxed and over-regulated. I wonder why? Seems to me that it's all nothing but blowing smoke in an attempt to defend corporate greed.

 

[drsmith1072]

No Nancy, I mean Clancy...you yourself just stated "And you think the Government is any better?" indicating that you KNOW that Corporations are nothing but SCUM.

I, however, believe and KNOW that the Government IS better.

WHO is the government other than you and me and your fellow American citizens...not a bunch of old farts in a corporate dungeon somewhere thinking up new ways to bilk the good folks from their money.

What has the Big Corp done for you lately? What has Big Miner done for you lately?

Aww Nancy? That's cute.

I'd take Corporation Greed over Government Greed any day.

Actually nowadays Government is made out of Elitists, meaning they don't give a darn flying shit about you or me.. They care about their own Special Interests, their own damn Greedy Agendas. Which in the end, hurts us more than Corp Greed.

What has the Big corp done for me? Actually, I work at a Local Ice Rink which indeed is a Franchise, they have provided Money for Gas, Money for my Lunch and Breakfast today and let's not forget money to pay off my new Truck.

You've been completly taught to hate all Corporations, and the only alternative you prefer or seem to think is "better" is Government.


Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Thomas Paine

The primary difference is that government greed can be held accountable by the voters who elect their representatives. Those "elistis" on both sides do what they can to bring taxpayer dollars to their state in order to please their constituency which is part of their job. You may call it wrong that politician A from a state that you don't live in arranges a deal to bring money to his state or district to "buy" his/her vote but that is the way it has been done for years by both republicans and democrats. Furthermore, if they stay in office for any length of time they must be doing somethign right by their constituency. If their constituency doesn't support him they will vote him out and replace him.
You may call what a congressperson who does not represent you special interest but to his/her constituency it may be just what they wanted.

So the ice rink provided all of that for you or did they PAY YOU A SALARY and in turn YOU bought and paid for all of that with your own hard earned money??

BTW I didn't see anywhere in thsi thread where marc stated that he hated ALL corporations. My guess is that this is nothing more than hyperbole so you can try to demonize your opponent rather than listen to and debate what he actually said.

 

[Jarhead]

Ahh ! but now we have the worst of both worlds a greedy government ran by greedy coprorations.

Then let's vote the Democrats out.

and replace them with what?? The same big government republicans that ran the show for 6 years and did almost every act that you are now trying to use to attack the democrats?? LOL

Replace them with those with state legislature records of TRUE bi partisan voting.

In other words, replace them with those that have proven that they believe people first, party last.

They DO exist.

 

[drsmith1072]

let's just put an end to all private businesses and corporations.

We can ALL work for the government. The government will tax us to pay us and whenever we want a pay raise the government will just borrow some more money from China.

The Libby Utopia.

LOL got to love the amount of hyperbole coming from the right. LOL

 

[boedicca]

If you punish success, the end result will be less business activity, less jobs, and more government dependency. If you can' see that, you aren't paying attention.