Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[theHawk]

Leviticus is not the Ten Commandments, and seems more like punishments decided by mankind for those not keeping the Commandments. While Genesis 3 might be construed as punishment, it also seems like God is explaining the consequences of their acts. For example, a child jumps off the roof. The doctor wouldn't say, "The punishment for jumping off the roof is a broken leg," he would remark the consequence of jumping off high places is usually a broken bone.

Where do we come to the conclusions that God was just waiting to punish someone for the sins of all? Where in Jesus' ministry does he proclaim that he was there so God might punish him alone in place of punishing each person individually? If it was going to be punishment for the remission of sins, why was Jesus always teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins?

There many more than Ten Commandments, over 600 in fact.

These were laws about behavior, and cleanliness, or purity.

Moses himself could not enter the tabernacle because of the sins of Israel. One cannot be in God’s presence while in such a state, because God is pure good. This is why Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden. Eden was a place where God and man could coexist.

The sinful must be purified before being with God. This is why sacrifices were made. The animal blood was considered the life force of the animal, and God would enact his purification on that instead of on the person, if they made the atonement. Now these animal sacrifices were a mere shadow of the true sacrifice to come, Jesus’ sacrifice as the Lamb of God. His sacrifice was the one final sacrifice for all mankind’s sins, past, present, and future. The animal sacrifices of the past were really pointing towards his sacrifice, just as taking the Eucharist today is reliving the sacrifice Jesus made in the past.

The forgiveness of sins is really Jesus paying that debt for you. So if you sin, you add to his suffering, assuming you ask for his forgiveness. Otherwise you will pay for that sin yourself in the place of torment.

 

[theHawk]

HISTORICAL FACTS? what evidence do you have that the Sanhedrin accused Jesus
of anything or ever heard a case against him? ROFLMAO @ "pressured
the Romans"

The New Testament. Now you can run around screaming like your head is on fire, but in the end you have zero proof that these testimonies are false.


If you want to believe that the Messiah is going to be just a “political leader” who brings a world without sin and death, well….I suppose that is your right. Personally I believe Jesus being the divine Son of God is far more plausible as we will only get a world without sin and death after heaven on earth has been established after the judgment.

 

[alang1216]

Does it get any better than this?

John MacArthur explains Jesus to Ben Shapiro.

You either accept Jesus is the Messiah, or that he is a blasphemer. There is no middle ground.

He also covers the animal sacrifice and why it was never good enough to cover for Israel’s sins.




Can any of you anti-Christs refute this?

Poor Ben, has no response.

An excellent example of confusing theology with history. Until you learn the difference you can't understand either.

 

[rosends]

Then why did the Sanhedrin accuse him of blasphemy? He was saying that he was the Son of Man. I know you like to ignore historical facts, but they found him guilty of violating the Sabbath, threatening to destroy the temple, and claiming to be the Messiah. They demanded his death for this, and pressured the Romans to do it for them since they were not allowed to do it themselves.

You can’t have it both ways.

Seriously? The only proof you have that the sanhedrin did anything is because of the Christian (agendized) text. There are so many errors in the events as told that either you believe that the entire Jewish hierarchy threw out all of the rule books or you believe that a text written after the fact to advance a particular agenda got details wrong to make its fiction acceptable to the ignorant masses.

If you knew anything about the way Jewish law works, you would know that violating the sabbath as described, threatening to destroy the temple and claiming to be the messiah are not punishable by death, and if there is any death penalty, crucifixion is not allowed (nor is handing a religious criminal over to civil authorities). The entire set of accounts is so rife with error that it must have been written by someone who knew nothing of Jewish law.

Or, you can claim that the power structure that claimed to be the Jewish authority didn't follow any of its own rules and yet the public accepted it as its leadership. If you really think that, then I pity you.

 

[theHawk]

Seriously? The only proof you have that the sanhedrin did anything is because of the Christian (agendized) text. There are so many errors in the events as told that either you believe that the entire Jewish hierarchy threw out all of the rule books or you believe that a text written after the fact to advance a particular agenda got details wrong to make its fiction acceptable to the ignorant masses.

If you knew anything about the way Jewish law works, you would know that violating the sabbath as described, threatening to destroy the temple and claiming to be the messiah are not punishable by death, and if there is any death penalty, crucifixion is not allowed (nor is handing a religious criminal over to civil authorities). The entire set of accounts is so rife with error that it must have been written by someone who knew nothing of Jewish law.

Or, you can claim that the power structure that claimed to be the Jewish authority didn't follow any of its own rules and yet the public accepted it as its leadership. If you really think that, then I pity you.

You make all these claims, yet back them up with nothing.

 

[Meriweather]

The sinful must be purified before being with God.

Explain how punishment purifies.

 

[Meriweather]

There are stacks and stacks of doccumentation showing what Ann Frank wrote about.

I am speaking of Anne's personal stories. There are also stacks and stacks of material on Biblical times. As you point out, they no more verify a personal resurrection as the stacks of material verify Anne's personal stories. Did you know there are three versions of the diary? The original, the version edited by Anne, the version edited by her father. (The last is the one published.)

This diary is definitely non-fiction and events seen through the eyes of Anne Frank, a young girl. Nothing wrong with that. But does it tell the whole story of everything that happened during the time she lived? Of course not. That's my point.

 

[irosie91]

Explain how punishment purifies.

Consult DANTE---remember he did a whole book called PURGATORY which was
much more interesting than PARADISO

 

[rosends]

You make all these claims, yet back them up with nothing.

What, that under Jewish law, claiming to be God or the messiah isn't blasphemy?

Torah for Today: What does the Torah says about …Blasphemy?

Britain's Biggest Jewish Newspaper Online

www.jewishnews.co.uk

or that the accusations of violating the sabbath wouldn't have led to the death penalty because they lacked certain elements?

What are the requirements to be killed in Beis Din?

It is my understanding that it is incredibly difficult to be killed in Beis Din - so much so that one that kills once every seven (or seventy) years is a murderous one (Makkos 1:10). What exactly a...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Cruelty of Capital Punishment - Aish.com

aish.com

or that it would not have been allowed to turn Jesus over to secular authorities?

Reporting and Prosecuting Jewish Criminals: Halakhic Concerns | jewishideas.org

Question: Does Jewish Law impose a responsibility to prevent criminal action? Does Halakha sanction reporting Jewish criminals to secular authorities? May an Orthodox Jew prosecute Jewish criminals?

www.jewishideas.org

What exactly do you want to know?

 

[Meriweather]

Consult DANTE---

I doubt I am going to find Dante among Old Testament scripture. Dante wrote in the 1300s AD. He's more than a thousand years too late from where I am searching.

 

[theHawk]

Explain how punishment purifies.

I suppose the same way boiling water purifies it.

 

[theHawk]

What, that under Jewish law, claiming to be God or the messiah isn't blasphemy?

Torah for Today: What does the Torah says about …Blasphemy?

Britain's Biggest Jewish Newspaper Online

www.jewishnews.co.uk

or that the accusations of violating the sabbath wouldn't have led to the death penalty because they lacked certain elements?

What are the requirements to be killed in Beis Din?

It is my understanding that it is incredibly difficult to be killed in Beis Din - so much so that one that kills once every seven (or seventy) years is a murderous one (Makkos 1:10). What exactly a...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Cruelty of Capital Punishment - Aish.com

aish.com

or that it would not have been allowed to turn Jesus over to secular authorities?

Reporting and Prosecuting Jewish Criminals: Halakhic Concerns | jewishideas.org

Question: Does Jewish Law impose a responsibility to prevent criminal action? Does Halakha sanction reporting Jewish criminals to secular authorities? May an Orthodox Jew prosecute Jewish criminals?

www.jewishideas.org

What exactly do you want to know?

Because the Jewish leaders of ancient Israel always followed their own laws and covenant?
LOL have you read any of the Bible/Tanakh? The whole thing is full of stories about how Jews consistently disregard God’s laws and break their covenant.

 

[rosends]

Because the Jewish leaders of ancient Israel always followed their own laws and covenant?
LOL have you read any of the Bible/Tanakh? The whole thing is full of stories about how Jews consistently disregard God’s laws and break their covenant.

Ah, so because in the bible the Jews misbehaved, therefore in the gospels, the Jews must be misbehaving. That's your argument? In the bible, the Jews also follow God's laws and behave. There are plenty of stories about that as well. Strange that you wouldn't see that as precedent to contextualize your stories.

I guess you pick what works for you.

 

[Meriweather]

I suppose the same way boiling water purifies it.

Let's not suppose. You seem to be claiming God wrote all six hundred commandments. Further, that punishment is needed for breaking any of these six hundred laws. I am looking for scriptures where God explains why punishment must occur before He is satisfied. Where does God call for punishment?

 

[theHawk]

Let's not suppose. You seem to be claiming God wrote all six hundred commandments. Further, that punishment is needed for breaking any of these six hundred laws. I am looking for scriptures where God explains why punishment must occur before He is satisfied. Where does God call for punishment?

Then don’t think of it as punishment, it is purification.

 

[Meriweather]

Then don’t think of it as punishment, it is purification.

In other words, Jesus' death was not punishment for the sins of mankind.

 

[Manonthestreet]

jesus was neither nor did he ever claim to be a messiah -

all of which was required for their book of forgeries and fallacies to entrap those that read the c-bible to become a member of their religion of servitude.

rather - what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination as the means for admission to the everlasting.

At Jesus' trial, He clearly affirms that He is the Christ, the Son of God. Mark 14:61-62 says

"Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus[.]"

Does Jesus ever directly and explicitly claim to be the Messiah (the Christ) in public, before his trial with the Sanhedrin?

At Jesus' trial, He clearly affirms that He is the Christ, the Son of God. Mark 14:61-62 says "Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,”

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

 

[Manonthestreet]

In other words, Jesus' death was not punishment for the sins of mankind.

Yes it was.

 

[theHawk]

Ah, so because in the bible the Jews misbehaved, therefore in the gospels, the Jews must be misbehaving. That's your argument? In the bible, the Jews also follow God's laws and behave. There are plenty of stories about that as well. Strange that you wouldn't see that as precedent to contextualize your stories.

I guess you pick what works for you.

It was foretold that the Messiah would be rejected by most men.

Isaiah 53 describes how he will be rejected, beaten, struck down and led to the slaughter.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes it was.

Then we should see it being foretold in the Old Testament and we should hear Jesus saying "Punishment for the forgiveness of sins" in the New Testament. I am not seeing either.