Exercises in Vision Theology

[Chuckt]

Exercises in Vision Theology
© Chuckt 2009

Vision #1

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Vision #2

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Acts 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Here is the exercise. If you didn't know either situation or the particulars of each story, how would you know which vision is from the Lord without the Bible? I know of one or more possible biblical exceptions but how would you know? And if you found someone who was selfish and conceited and a being showed up and gave him a vision and said "I'm god" then how would you know? Tell me how you would know without using Bible terms or the Bible.

I've been looking into this because of your question and I haven't tried to answer you too fast as I have given it some thought, meditation and asking the Lord about it. I don't know everything but I have been a believer for about 32 years but that doesn't guarantee you anything.

It is not wrong to want to seek God or to understand what God wants and it is very commendable. I think you have to know your heart and guard your heart. And the reason is that we're trying to communicate with God and you are trying to use the flesh or the spirit instead of His word to guide you. The problem is the heart and knowing who is speaking.

I have dreams but they have been just dreams. Question: How can you know the difference between your own dream and one that is from the Lord? Or how do I know the difference between communication between my flesh, the world and the devil? Who is speaking?

The problem is that the heart is where communication comes from:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The imagination comes from the heart:

Jeremiah 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD.

How well do you know your own heart? The Bible says our hearts are deceitfully wicked. How then will we know if it is the imaginations of our hearts or whether the answer is from the Lord? The false prophets spoke a vision of their own heart and not from the Lord. How then will you know what is from the Lord?

Question: How well do you know the nature of God and does it match up with the Bible? If I asked everyone here to write 1500 words on the nature of God, how many of you would get it right? Do people who get it wrong have wrong ideas about God and if they do then how can you trust them or me to tell you the right things about the Bible? If the Bible is true then why would someone get a simple test like that wrong?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

What is the definition of "imaginations" here?
1) the thinking of a man deliberating with himself
a) a thought, inward reasoning
b) purpose, design
2) a deliberating, questioning about what is true
a) hesitation, doubting
b) disputing, arguing

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1261&t=KJV

Is what going on in your mind like "Visions" considered thoughts or part of your thought process?

Let’s look at one vision in the life of Peter:

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon [him], and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from [his] hands.
Acts 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
Acts 12:9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

If an Angel smote you on the side and got you out of prison and if you doubted like Peter then apparently Visions were so real that you couldn't tell the difference between them and reality. That is a problem because then how do I know whether a person has imaginations of their own heart, mental illness or a vision?

I'm not here to put burdens on people but the users could come together collectively and ask that teachers submit 500 words or 1500 words on the doctrine of God and when people get that right, we can maybe see whether they have the tools to deal with experiences outside of scripture which is very dangerous because anyone can get off track and hear things because the world speaks to us, the devil speaks to us and there are many spirits that are in the world:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

People use to carry pots and things on their heads and it is possible that they attached lamps to their sandals or shoes so they could see where they were walking in the dark. We're in this world darkened by sin so we need His word:

Psalm 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

We want the Jesus star to arise in your hearts and to light it up. You don't want anything else.

The problem comes when you talk to people about man and I was thinking how hard it is to stop a Mormon when he gives his Mormon testimony. We're fighting pride.

Man based religions are based on pride or selfishness or self. They are the doctrines of demons.

The Bible also said that these teachings would come alongside of the Bible or of another sort. If we find false visions then it can possibly be something that we don't have the power to stop because it comes from another source. And how hard has it been for people to deal with Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses or other man based religions? Do you have the power to stop what is wrong?

What is true doctrine?

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Why doesn't it say to speak visions? Because of the problems I just stated.

Are any of you good enough to see something taught in the gospels, to see it practiced in the book of Acts and to see it explained in the epistles? Are you good enough to find an old testament verse? Then you can make sound doctrine.

Are we better theologians than Satan? How well do we know our Bible? Do we have 6,000 year comprehension? Have we walked in the temple of God? Have we been in heaven? Do we know better than Satan who walked in heaven? Have we been to heaven yet? Have you studied prophecy for 6,000 years or studied the Word of God for 6,000 years? If you were to have a tug of war with the religions of the world, who would win? That is the power of the enemy over you because there are over 2,000 cults and no one has convinced all of them to leave just like you don't have power over false theology.

When you go outside of the Bible, the hardest lessons you will learn is to disobey the word of God. Going and doing something outside of the Bible is no different than what Adam and Eve did. It can lead to spiritual death.

Can the angels or Satan show you visions? This is called a flash or a vision:

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Angels know future events:

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.
And the enemy has the power of deception:
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I know the source of the Bible but I can't judge other people's visions because I'm not inside other people and it is unfair to put me against other people but men of God have to stand with the Word of God.

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Visions could possibly give new meanings to this verse.

 

[theword]

Exercises in Vision Theology
© Chuckt 2009

Vision #1

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Vision #2

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Acts 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Here is the exercise. If you didn't know either situation or the particulars of each story, how would you know which vision is from the Lord without the Bible? I know of one or more possible biblical exceptions but how would you know? And if you found someone who was selfish and conceited and a being showed up and gave him a vision and said "I'm god" then how would you know? Tell me how you would know without using Bible terms or the Bible.

I've been looking into this because of your question and I haven't tried to answer you too fast as I have given it some thought, meditation and asking the Lord about it. I don't know everything but I have been a believer for about 32 years but that doesn't guarantee you anything.

It is not wrong to want to seek God or to understand what God wants and it is very commendable. I think you have to know your heart and guard your heart. And the reason is that we're trying to communicate with God and you are trying to use the flesh or the spirit instead of His word to guide you. The problem is the heart and knowing who is speaking.

I have dreams but they have been just dreams. Question: How can you know the difference between your own dream and one that is from the Lord? Or how do I know the difference between communication between my flesh, the world and the devil? Who is speaking?

The problem is that the heart is where communication comes from:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The imagination comes from the heart:

Jeremiah 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD.

How well do you know your own heart? The Bible says our hearts are deceitfully wicked. How then will we know if it is the imaginations of our hearts or whether the answer is from the Lord? The false prophets spoke a vision of their own heart and not from the Lord. How then will you know what is from the Lord?

Question: How well do you know the nature of God and does it match up with the Bible? If I asked everyone here to write 1500 words on the nature of God, how many of you would get it right? Do people who get it wrong have wrong ideas about God and if they do then how can you trust them or me to tell you the right things about the Bible? If the Bible is true then why would someone get a simple test like that wrong?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

What is the definition of "imaginations" here?
1) the thinking of a man deliberating with himself
a) a thought, inward reasoning
b) purpose, design
2) a deliberating, questioning about what is true
a) hesitation, doubting
b) disputing, arguing

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Is what going on in your mind like "Visions" considered thoughts or part of your thought process?

Let’s look at one vision in the life of Peter:

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon [him], and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from [his] hands.
Acts 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
Acts 12:9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

If an Angel smote you on the side and got you out of prison and if you doubted like Peter then apparently Visions were so real that you couldn't tell the difference between them and reality. That is a problem because then how do I know whether a person has imaginations of their own heart, mental illness or a vision?

I'm not here to put burdens on people but the users could come together collectively and ask that teachers submit 500 words or 1500 words on the doctrine of God and when people get that right, we can maybe see whether they have the tools to deal with experiences outside of scripture which is very dangerous because anyone can get off track and hear things because the world speaks to us, the devil speaks to us and there are many spirits that are in the world:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

People use to carry pots and things on their heads and it is possible that they attached lamps to their sandals or shoes so they could see where they were walking in the dark. We're in this world darkened by sin so we need His word:

Psalm 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

We want the Jesus star to arise in your hearts and to light it up. You don't want anything else.

The problem comes when you talk to people about man and I was thinking how hard it is to stop a Mormon when he gives his Mormon testimony. We're fighting pride.

Man based religions are based on pride or selfishness or self. They are the doctrines of demons.

The Bible also said that these teachings would come alongside of the Bible or of another sort. If we find false visions then it can possibly be something that we don't have the power to stop because it comes from another source. And how hard has it been for people to deal with Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses or other man based religions? Do you have the power to stop what is wrong?

What is true doctrine?

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Why doesn't it say to speak visions? Because of the problems I just stated.

Are any of you good enough to see something taught in the gospels, to see it practiced in the book of Acts and to see it explained in the epistles? Are you good enough to find an old testament verse? Then you can make sound doctrine.

Are we better theologians than Satan? How well do we know our Bible? Do we have 6,000 year comprehension? Have we walked in the temple of God? Have we been in heaven? Do we know better than Satan who walked in heaven? Have we been to heaven yet? Have you studied prophecy for 6,000 years or studied the Word of God for 6,000 years? If you were to have a tug of war with the religions of the world, who would win? That is the power of the enemy over you because there are over 2,000 cults and no one has convinced all of them to leave just like you don't have power over false theology.

When you go outside of the Bible, the hardest lessons you will learn is to disobey the word of God. Going and doing something outside of the Bible is no different than what Adam and Eve did. It can lead to spiritual death.

Can the angels or Satan show you visions? This is called a flash or a vision:

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Angels know future events:

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.
And the enemy has the power of deception:
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I know the source of the Bible but I can't judge other people's visions because I'm not inside other people and it is unfair to put me against other people but men of God have to stand with the Word of God.

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Visions could possibly give new meanings to this verse.

Only believers can believe in the testimonies of God by us saints. Unbelievers need the scriptures to pretend they know God.

 

[BreezeWood]

Chuckt: The problem is the heart and knowing who is speaking.

theword: Only believers can believe in the testimonies of God by us saints. Unbelievers need the scriptures to pretend they know God.

Exercises in Vision Theology


is Vision a play on words ?

the Christian (Vision) is not what they are seeing but what they think, are thinking ...


True Vision is what one sees without thought but with knowledge ... we all see the OuterWorld everyday with our eyes but within our Physiology we rather interpret what is seen than believing what actually we are seeing - this is our sin in life to overcome as God's commandment to accomplish Remittance for our Spirit, to see without the corruption of errant thought but with the knowledge that is available for those willing to discover the gift of Life as Created by God.

how would you know which vision is from the Lord without the Bible?

to believe one needs a Book as an interpretation between oneself and that of the Creator is someone who will never have a true Vision of Life that is freely given as sight and allowing their Spirit the real opportunity to pursue the true path of Freedom.

.

 

[jwoodie]

A little more context (and fewer Bible verses) would be helpful...

 

[shart_attack]

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Visions could possibly give new meanings to this verse.

Visions come from the subconscious imagination. And Christ our Savior tells us—in the Book of Matthew, Chapter 15—that they do not condemn.

11.) "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

12.) Then came His disciples, and said unto Him, "Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

13.) But He answered and said, "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14.) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

15.) Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Declare unto us this parable."

16.) And Jesus said, "Are ye also yet without understanding?

17.) Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18.) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19.) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20.) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Yet, Chuck my dearest of dear USMB friends, you say in your OP that what is in the imagination comes from the heart, and that what comes from the heart condemns, yes?

I'm not sure I agree with you here, guy.

It seems to me that we need to make a delineation between those things which are purely imaginative and still only in the heart and/ or the mind, and those things which are imaginative and yet have already been expressed aloud in actual, physical words after having come from the heart and/ or the mind.

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you know the source of the Bible except the Holy Spirit reveals it?

Same for any vision. The Holy Spirit will give you power to discern it. But there are keys that can be found in the scriptures.

 

[Chuckt]

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Visions could possibly give new meanings to this verse.

Visions come from the subconscious imagination. And Christ our Savior tells us—in the Book of Matthew, Chapter 15—that they do not condemn.

11.) "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

12.) Then came His disciples, and said unto Him, "Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

13.) But He answered and said, "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14.) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

15.) Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Declare unto us this parable."

16.) And Jesus said, "Are ye also yet without understanding?

17.) Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18.) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19.) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20.) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Yet, Chuck my dearest of dear USMB friends, you say in your OP that what is in the imagination comes from the heart, and that what comes from the heart condemns, yes?

I'm not sure I agree with you here, guy.

It seems to me that we need to make a delineation between those things which are purely imaginative and still only in the heart and/ or the mind, and those things which are imaginative and yet have already been expressed aloud in actual, physical words after having come from the heart and/ or the mind.

It is okay. I wrote this article out of experience with some people who needed to be corrected and no one actually helped me go beyond this Bible study by actually taking the test or helping me improve the Bible study.


When I was a young Christian, I read verses that seemed to line up with that you could lose your salvation and it was learned behavior from people who taught it as well and what some young Christians do is go around condemning everyone to get them saved.

I'm thinking that our hearts can condemn us. Maybe I'll think about other verses as well.

1 John 3:20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

On top of that, there are people who go to my pastor and say, "I had a dream about you" and that you shouldn't get on that plane and that it turns out to be false. The pastor says that that is not edification and the gift of the spirit is edification.

 

[Chuckt]

How do you know the source of the Bible except the Holy Spirit reveals it?

Same for any vision. The Holy Spirit will give you power to discern it. But there are keys that can be found in the scriptures.

From the test of canonization.

 

[MaxGrit]

How do you know the source of the Bible except the Holy Spirit reveals it?

Same for any vision. The Holy Spirit will give you power to discern it. But there are keys that can be found in the scriptures.

From the test of canonization.

Canonization was not a test but a recognition of the scriptures that was universally agreed upon to be true at that time.

Canonization did not grant authority to scriptures. It only recognizes the authority inherent in scriptures.

 

[PostmodernProph]

When I was a young Christian, I read verses that seemed to line up with that you could lose your salvation

I don't think you can lose it.....I do, however think it can be thrown away......

 

[MaxGrit]

When I was a young Christian, I read verses that seemed to line up with that you could lose your salvation

I don't think you can lose it.....I do, however think it can be thrown away......

Impossible. A saint cannot throw away his sainthood when God wills him to be a saint. God is omnipotent. God's will is always done.

Anyone who is able to throw or lose his "faith" never got salvation and was not a saint. He fooled himself into believing he was a saint, but he was not. Maybe he will receive salvation in the future, if God wills it to grant grace to him. Only God knows who all the saints are because God elects whomever he wants.

 

[PostmodernProph]

When I was a young Christian, I read verses that seemed to line up with that you could lose your salvation

I don't think you can lose it.....I do, however think it can be thrown away......

Impossible. A saint cannot throw away his sainthood when God wills him to be a saint. God is omnipotent. God's will is always done.

Anyone who is able to throw or lose his "faith" never got salvation and was not a saint. He fooled himself into believing he was a saint, but he was not. Maybe he will receive salvation in the future, if God wills it to grant grace to him. Only God knows who all the saints are because God elects whomever he wants.

illogical.....one receives salvation by accepting Christ's sacrifice.....can one later deny the same sacrifice and become "not saved"?.....obviously yes.....

consider my brother.....baptized into the church, made public profession of faith, married, two children, served as an elder in church......then in his 40s divorced his wife, married his secretary, set out on a life of non stop partying......had four heart attacks and survived each of them.....my sister convinced him to start meeting with her pastor.....he recommitted his life to God before the fifth heart attack killed him.....

so tell me.....was he saved when he was an elder in the church?.....was he saved when he was devoting his life to partying?.....was he saved when he died?......

the way I look at it, he was saved, then he wasn't saved, then he was.....and God had him survive the heart attacks so he would have time to get his life in order before he died, because he WAS one of the elect.....

 

[Templicon]

God is love. The commandments are love. All religions and sciences fail that basic essence. Without the motive of love, all formulas scientific and religious in ultimate application therefore fail, because the answer, love, is always denied.

For example all sciences equate to be applied to global domination by force or finance. In the end that little experiment of human world government from nation-state root systems failing first, will ultimately fail for it violates the power of love which is more powerful than the power of forces.

Thus as long as the motive is everything but love, empty inside merely using it's veneer, which God as the power of love can "see", it will prove to be ultimately untrue and ineffectual in the long run.

Love is the challenge fallen man cannot rise to in a general sense. The historic record of many religions and scientific applications tell the story, for they all support human sacrifice as the cornerstone of all civilizations.

In a way the human sacrifice of Jesus Christ is a cornerstone of a civilization based on love, that must in time remove the current human civilization based on a pretense of love, freedom and justice, but is basically a falsehood as the main nourishment of that particular fruit in Eden.

Denial and imaginative contrivance is how man puts off the inevitable as long as possible, the "knowledge" of defining "good" and "evil" is the main distraction. Thus admission of failure to keep the law of love, is the first step to admission of Christ's superiority as the only human being whoever kept that law.

Therefore his death was only temporary, a foundation, for love truly never dies, never fails, and never vanishes. All enemies of love are what, in the long run, talking concepts that are not truly love, will perish in the way.

Love never fails. Now hatred will fail, it just takes time to reveal it for what it is, the true motivation of this world's power systems. That is why in time they will utterly fail, but it will be a drawn out process of expending the lie, and its power, and it's impotence. Lies do not die easily, they have to run their full course, sort of like the process of world government formation. Just a matter of time before the whole claim is put to the cosmic test of truth, real truth, not human "truth", but super-celestial divine Truth.

This is why Pilate still asks, "what is truth?"

Love is ultimate truth, everything else is just part of man's denial of that truth, while claiming to be champions of it. Admitting we fail at love, is itself a truthful step toward redemption. Fall, redemption, restoration. The thing that will be the last obstacle, will be human world government, a love of power and riches, not truth.

But it will be successful at it's own version of "world peace" and security (in 7 to 14 years, and after the final WW cycle), but that too is temporary. You know, it has no real foundation. It seems the lie is too big to see, to hard to accept and hidden in plain sight.

The truth is a hard pill to swallow. It is a full surrender, or it is a full fight; with God. There is no middle ground ultimately, one is either for or against ultimate truth, God, and ultimate love, God. In the meantime there is a perfect sacrificial escape if one can believe "God loved the world so much he gave His only begotten Son..."

Which brings us to the subject of Faith...

Regards

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you know the source of the Bible except the Holy Spirit reveals it?

Same for any vision. The Holy Spirit will give you power to discern it. But there are keys that can be found in the scriptures.

From the test of canonization.

So we should trust the test of canonization rather than relying on the Holy Spirit? I must have missed that verse.

 

[shart_attack]

When I was a young Christian, I read verses that seemed to line up with that you could lose your salvation

I don't think you can lose it.....I do, however think it can be thrown away......

Impossible. A saint cannot throw away his sainthood when God wills him to be a saint. God is omnipotent. God's will is always done.

Anyone who is able to throw or lose his "faith" never got salvation and was not a saint. He fooled himself into believing he was a saint, but he was not. Maybe he will receive salvation in the future, if God wills it to grant grace to him. Only God knows who all the saints are because God elects whomever he wants.

What's the point in one's even accepting Christ as his or her personal Savior and thenceforth making a profession of faith in Him aloud before God and man if that someone still essentially has no idea that he or she has been saved even after having accepted Christ and made that profession of faith?

I won't go so far as to say Calvinism is stupid, because John Calvin was certainly more knowledgeable of the intricacies of many more New Testament scriptures than I am.

It isn't stupid, Calvinism.

It is, however, gratuitously counterproductive.

I do not believe that those of us who will one day spend eternity with our Father will spend eternity with Him only because of His having "elected" us to be there.

I believe, contrarily, what Christ my Savior tells me when He says in Matthew 10:32 that:

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

Thank you precious Jesus Christ* my Savior for loving me so much that You kept Your Word to our Father and died for me, a sinner.

Amen.

_______________________________FOOTNOTES__________________________________

* @ MaxGrit: I trust what Jesus tells (<---- note the verb tense there) me with regard to who will spend eternity with Him and our Father more than I trust what John Calvin&#8212;God bless his well-intentioned soul&#8212;told (<---- note the verb tense there) me.

 

[PostmodernProph]

What's the point in one's even accepting Christ as his or her personal Savior and thenceforth making a profession of faith in Him aloud before God and man if that someone still essentially has no idea that he or she has been saved even after having accepted Christ and made that profession of faith?

actually, I had that one figured out back in college already......if you weren't one of the elect you wouldn't give a fuck whether you were saved or not so that question would never be asked......

now I admit the Dutch Reformed Church, which believes there will only be 144,000 in heaven has a bit more problem with evangelism, however......

 

[Chuckt]

How do you know the source of the Bible except the Holy Spirit reveals it?

Same for any vision. The Holy Spirit will give you power to discern it. But there are keys that can be found in the scriptures.

From the test of canonization.

So we should trust the test of canonization rather than relying on the Holy Spirit? I must have missed that verse.

There are lots of fallen spirits in the world which rebelled against God. How do you know if you are getting a good fallen religious spirit or the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

What is the root word of transformed?

the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So basically Satan transforms after the likeness that comprises everything which means he is a big faker. He is basically the biggest hypocrite that ever was. Give him size ten shoes because he is an actor. Why should I give up the correct writings and the true Holy Spirit for a fake holy spirit and a fake actor?

What if the Holy Spirit told you to divorce your spouse? God's Holy Spirit wrote everything down because people lie and the testimony of the writers are better than Joseph Smith who went to jail because I'd rather receive the testimony of people who didn't suffer from wrongdoing than someone who suffered righteously.

All scripture is inspired of the Holy Ghost:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We will receive the true witness of the Holy Ghost and all other writings are anathema.