Every death in Afghanistan from this point forward is on Obamas hands

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This will forever be GWB’s war, the blood forever on his hands.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I have always had the position that this war was conducted wrong. I did however support it for 2 reasons until about a month ago. So you lefties can stop saying i dont support it now because of Obama. I dont support it now because in my limited opinion there is nothing left to gain. It has become obvious beyond any doubt that Karzi is playing both sides against the other and as soon as we leave the govt will most likely collapse. So whats the point of further loss of life and money?

 

[Flopper]

and if he made it so they all came home next week, the right would say we are giving up.

Grandpa, shut the fuck up.

So you're afraid of the right?

Got it, you're just like Obama with youre finger in the wind

After what happened in Vietnam, my instinctive reaction is to reject the idea of ending ANY mission without completing same. However, when politicians in Washington set our military personnel up for failure, whether by an insufficient commitment of personnel and resources to the mission, poor planning and lack of coherent mission objectives, unrealistic expectations that make the mission a practical impossibility, or policies, procedures and ROE that likewise make the mission objective simply unattainable, there comes a time to say, "ENOUGH!" That time has arrived. Never mind whose administration started it, or whose administration is now in charge of this debacle, it has now become, in my view unconscionable to continue to place our military personnel in harm's way for for an objective that cannot be achieved by use of military force.

It has become increasingly apparent that our military and civilian planners have drawn too many of precisely the wrong lessons from Vietnam. Some of these include "nation-building is a viable military strategy", "the public will accept and support limited wars if we make those wars clean, neat and sanitary enough", "the American people will NOT support a total war, with use of maximum violence to achieve total victory over the enemy, even if that is done quickly, efficiently and at minimal cost, because such a war is too brutal", "it's OK for America to have a "Make-do" military, rather than a "Can-do" military-now that the Cold War is over the people must have their "peace dividend", no matter the cost in readiness, morale, American lives, or failed missions", and "we cannot win a war, unless the rest of the world is OK with us doing that". Every single one of those supposed lessons is both a fallacious conclusion from flawed premises, and an outright lie!

As a combat veteran, I feel it is my duty to set the record straight. As noted above, there is ONE and ONLY ONE way to win a war on an enemy's home soil. That way is, to use enough force to achieve the objective, use it with maximum speed and maximum violence, so as to grab the enemy by the throat, hold onto him, and choke him until one of the following conditions is achieved (1) the enemy no longer has the will to fight, and abjectly surrenders, or (2) he no longer has the resources in arms and personnel to resist, and abjectly surrenders. In other words, find the enemy, fix him, engage him, and utterly destroy him, in the most efficient manner possible. Note that no body counts, "hearts and minds work" or theoretical projections are needed; the fight goes on until there is no more territory to take, there is no more enemy to kill, and/or he runs up the white flag.

Yes, that kind of war is nasty; there is no room for chivalry or mercy in it, there is no sanitizing it, or softening it. It is utterly brutal, violent, and vicious. It is hell on earth, and it is that way because no matter what you do to try to make it more palatable to the squeamish, it always has been and always will be that way. War, since its earliest beginnings, has been at its most basic level, about one soldier saying to his enemy "This was YOUR land,: now, it is MY land, and you will either accept that, or die", and then imposing his will on his foe. You can minimize destruction and casualties on both sides by getting it over with as quickly, and violently as possible,or you can attempt something less, and have more destruction and casualties over a longer time frame for an uncertain result. Hell yes, it's awful, which is why the nation should only resort to it, when no other course of action will achieve the needed result. War is not a game, , a political exercise,or a sporting event, and should never be treated as one! If there is no clear national imperative to unambiguously WIN it, then there is quite simply no excuse for being IN it.

So to every politician democrat or republican, liberal or conservative,or anything in between, here's the message: Our military personnel have done their duty, without regard for their personal safety. Now it is your turn to do YOUR duty; stop playing political games, stop passing the buck and placing the blame, quite worrying about polls and re-election, and decide to either WIN , ALL THE WAY, or GET OUT, ALL THE WAY. You either have a clear necessity to win completely, or you do not; so make up your damn minds which it is, and tell the rest of us, because the time for wasting the lives and breaking the bodies and minds of American troops for partisan political bullshit is OVER!

I agree with most of your post, however we haven't had a war with a really clear military objective since WWII. IMHO, there is something terrible wrong for a nation to commit itself to both war and prosperity at home. You either fully commit the nation and all of it's resources or you stay the fuck out.

 

[California Girl]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

 

[The Gadfly]

The blood, deaths, missing body parts, destroyed minds, ruined families and missing dads, not to mention the wasted money, is the responsibility of the person who put us there in the first place. If it were not for him NONE of this would be happening. NONE of it.

This bullshit spin is an insult. The horror was just fine before. Sickening.

.

He certainly bears his share of the responsibility, but one can't give a pass to the man who has had the power to bring them home since January 20, 2009.

No passes for Bush, Obama or anyone else on this one, Kevin. If either Iraq or Afghanistan was worth doing at all, it was worth doing properly, without half-measures. Since that was not done by EITHER administration, the presumption that this was nothing but political gamesmanship from the outset naturally follows. Asking why it took the politicians of BOTH major parties years to figure that out is a fair question. What you don't do, is point out the failed policies of your predecessor, and then fail to do anything meaningful to remedy the deficiencies. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the road-very simple, really. Even a fighting withdrawal is cheaper and more effective, than continuing to pile up casualties, by continuing a failed strategy while WISHING for a different result.

 

[Too Tall]

The blood, deaths, missing body parts, destroyed minds, ruined families and missing dads, not to mention the wasted money, is the responsibility of the person who put us there in the first place. If it were not for him NONE of this would be happening. NONE of it.

This bullshit spin is an insult. The horror was just fine before. Sickening.

.

so you were against us going there to begin with?....

Yes. I understood the reasons for going in, but on balance, I thought it was a bad idea. The negatives outweighed the positives. If this had been a quick, surgical action with specific goals to meet and then get the hell out, I could have been talked into it. But when I saw us send a massive force over there, I knew what was going to happen.

And don't even GET me started on IRAQ.

.

You must have been thrilled when Obama TRIPLED the number of troops in Afghanistan.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The blood, deaths, missing body parts, destroyed minds, ruined families and missing dads, not to mention the wasted money, is the responsibility of the person who put us there in the first place. If it were not for him NONE of this would be happening. NONE of it.

This bullshit spin is an insult. The horror was just fine before. Sickening.

.

He certainly bears his share of the responsibility, but one can't give a pass to the man who has had the power to bring them home since January 20, 2009.

No passes for Bush, Obama or anyone else on this one, Kevin. If either Iraq or Afghanistan was worth doing at all, it was worth doing properly, without half-measures. Since that was not done by EITHER administration, the presumption that this was nothing but political gamesmanship from the outset naturally follows. Asking why it took the politicians of BOTH major parties years to figure that out is a fair question. What you don't do, is point out the failed policies of your predecessor, and then fail to do anything meaningful to remedy the deficiencies. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the road-very simple, really. Even a fighting withdrawal is cheaper and more effective, than continuing to pile up casualties, by continuing a failed strategy while WISHING for a different result.

That was my point. Bush and Obama are both equally responsible for the mess in Afghanistan.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

Not only that but the casualities along with the cost are really the only factors to consider at this point. The terrorists are gone or dead.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

obama's intention was to fight to a stalemate and hold that until the enemy gave up. Victory is not in his vocabulary and it might make the taliban unhappy if they knew we intended to win.

It's time to leave.

Victory is not in [President Obama's] vocabulary

Tell that to bin Laden, Gaddafi, al-Awaki, dozens of other Taliban and al-Qeada ...

Or did you mean George Bush?

In case you haven't noticed, President Obama is the only president in a hell of a long time who is actually WINNING.

Hopefully, none of the Clown Car Candidates will get elected. If one is, we will be in several more wars before you can say, Holy Republican Profiteering War Machine. If Obama is re-elected, he will end it.

 

[DontBeStupid]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

Cali Girl is absolutely right here. You are trying to use our fallen troops as an attack on Obama as if he was the one who started the entire conflict in the first place and is now 100% responsible for not ending it.

You are using the deaths of our troops as a partisan attack.

And it's disgusting.

 

[Dot Com]

I believe we have accomplished all we can over there. In fact now it appears that previous gains are being lost. At this point i believe we are damaging our international cred.

Regardles of when we leave the country will probably spiral into civil war. At that point we simply need to keep our planes on alert to take out any terrorist threats.

We prosecuted this war wrong from day one and its time to cut our losses and save our men and women. On the current timetable we will leave in 2014. Most likely nothing will be any different then than it is now. Thus the deaths will be pointless and on Obamas hands.

BRING EM HOME

I don't remember seeing you on the Presidential ballot?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

This will forever be GWB’s war, the blood forever on his hands.

By the time the R's get done, they will be blaming President Obama for every single death in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan.

They're lying about gas prices, they lied every day about bin Laden and Gaddafi and they have no hesitation about lying about everything else he has done or not done.

That's why they're called GObP/Republicans.

 

[Too Tall]

This will forever be GWB’s war, the blood forever on his hands.

I suppose the thing to do after the attack on 911 that was planned by OBL and supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan would have been to negotiate a truce with them, don't you agree?

Better yet, get a new President who will TRIPLE the number of troops in country since he knew that partisan assholes will blame the former President.

I will bet you blame the deaths of our troops in Vietnam on Nixon instead of JFK.

 

[The Gadfly]

So you're afraid of the right?

Got it, you're just like Obama with youre finger in the wind

After what happened in Vietnam, my instinctive reaction is to reject the idea of ending ANY mission without completing same. However, when politicians in Washington set our military personnel up for failure, whether by an insufficient commitment of personnel and resources to the mission, poor planning and lack of coherent mission objectives, unrealistic expectations that make the mission a practical impossibility, or policies, procedures and ROE that likewise make the mission objective simply unattainable, there comes a time to say, "ENOUGH!" That time has arrived. Never mind whose administration started it, or whose administration is now in charge of this debacle, it has now become, in my view unconscionable to continue to place our military personnel in harm's way for for an objective that cannot be achieved by use of military force.

It has become increasingly apparent that our military and civilian planners have drawn too many of precisely the wrong lessons from Vietnam. Some of these include "nation-building is a viable military strategy", "the public will accept and support limited wars if we make those wars clean, neat and sanitary enough", "the American people will NOT support a total war, with use of maximum violence to achieve total victory over the enemy, even if that is done quickly, efficiently and at minimal cost, because such a war is too brutal", "it's OK for America to have a "Make-do" military, rather than a "Can-do" military-now that the Cold War is over the people must have their "peace dividend", no matter the cost in readiness, morale, American lives, or failed missions", and "we cannot win a war, unless the rest of the world is OK with us doing that". Every single one of those supposed lessons is both a fallacious conclusion from flawed premises, and an outright lie!

As a combat veteran, I feel it is my duty to set the record straight. As noted above, there is ONE and ONLY ONE way to win a war on an enemy's home soil. That way is, to use enough force to achieve the objective, use it with maximum speed and maximum violence, so as to grab the enemy by the throat, hold onto him, and choke him until one of the following conditions is achieved (1) the enemy no longer has the will to fight, and abjectly surrenders, or (2) he no longer has the resources in arms and personnel to resist, and abjectly surrenders. In other words, find the enemy, fix him, engage him, and utterly destroy him, in the most efficient manner possible. Note that no body counts, "hearts and minds work" or theoretical projections are needed; the fight goes on until there is no more territory to take, there is no more enemy to kill, and/or he runs up the white flag.

Yes, that kind of war is nasty; there is no room for chivalry or mercy in it, there is no sanitizing it, or softening it. It is utterly brutal, violent, and vicious. It is hell on earth, and it is that way because no matter what you do to try to make it more palatable to the squeamish, it always has been and always will be that way. War, since its earliest beginnings, has been at its most basic level, about one soldier saying to his enemy "This was YOUR land,: now, it is MY land, and you will either accept that, or die", and then imposing his will on his foe. You can minimize destruction and casualties on both sides by getting it over with as quickly, and violently as possible,or you can attempt something less, and have more destruction and casualties over a longer time frame for an uncertain result. Hell yes, it's awful, which is why the nation should only resort to it, when no other course of action will achieve the needed result. War is not a game, , a political exercise,or a sporting event, and should never be treated as one! If there is no clear national imperative to unambiguously WIN it, then there is quite simply no excuse for being IN it.

So to every politician democrat or republican, liberal or conservative,or anything in between, here's the message: Our military personnel have done their duty, without regard for their personal safety. Now it is your turn to do YOUR duty; stop playing political games, stop passing the buck and placing the blame, quite worrying about polls and re-election, and decide to either WIN , ALL THE WAY, or GET OUT, ALL THE WAY. You either have a clear necessity to win completely, or you do not; so make up your damn minds which it is, and tell the rest of us, because the time for wasting the lives and breaking the bodies and minds of American troops for partisan political bullshit is OVER!

I agree with most of your post, however we haven't had a war with a really clear military objective since WWII. IMHO, there is something terrible wrong for a nation to commit itself to both war and prosperity at home. You either fully commit the nation and all of it's resources or you stay the fuck out.

Well, Flopper, that's close; in fact, you CAN have both prosperity at home and a successful war abroad. PROVIDED, that the war is both (a) not too large, and (b) of limited duration. See the first Gulf War for an example (and yes, I know there was a recession the following year, but that occurred for other reasons, and was relatively mild and brief in any event). Something on the scale and duration of WW II, is obviously an entirely different circumstance which requires putting the nation on a complete "war footing" at home as well as abroad. Afghanistan, at least, COULD have had a clear military objective, had the politicians been so inclined; as it was, both parties were more concerned with public perception and winning elections that with actually prosecuting the war. The current mess is exactly what happens, anytime that is done.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

Cali Girl is absolutely right here. You are trying to use our fallen troops as an attack on Obama as if he was the one who started the entire conflict in the first place and is now 100% responsible for not ending it.

You are using the deaths of our troops as a partisan attack.

And it's disgusting.

Shame on her for suggesting that and fuck you for running with it.

 

[California Girl]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

You'll forgive me if I lean towards trusting our military to decide.... I tend to view those who know more about this shit to make that call. Just don't use our war dead for your petty partisan crap. It's sick.

 

[California Girl]

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

Cali Girl is absolutely right here. You are trying to use our fallen troops as an attack on Obama as if he was the one who started the entire conflict in the first place and is now 100% responsible for not ending it.

You are using the deaths of our troops as a partisan attack.

And it's disgusting.

Shame on her for suggesting that and fuck you for running with it.

Please don't mistake me for someone who is 'suggesting' it. I'm saying it loud and clear. You are using our war dead for petty partisan bullshit. That ain't a 'suggestion', it's an accusation.

And it sickens me. It sickens me from the left, and it sickens me from the right.

Got a number as to how many of my friends - our Military - you would like to see dead so that you can 'blame Obama'?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

My thought..... I wish people would not use our war dead for their petty partisan bullshit.

Nothing partisan about it. It is time to leave. If anything that is more a left position than a right one. The only one to blame now is the person in charge.

You'll forgive me if I lean towards trusting our military to decide.... I tend to view those who know more about this shit to make that call. Just don't use our war dead for your petty partisan crap. It's sick.

First of all im speaking about our future dead. There is NO reason for further bloodshed. And making that point is as valid as any other opinion. It has NOTHING to do with my political position therefore it CANT be a partisan attack.

Like it or not its my personal opinion as well as my right to express it. All this stupid PC bullshit is what leads to disasters like this.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Cali Girl is absolutely right here. You are trying to use our fallen troops as an attack on Obama as if he was the one who started the entire conflict in the first place and is now 100% responsible for not ending it.

You are using the deaths of our troops as a partisan attack.

And it's disgusting.

Shame on her for suggesting that and fuck you for running with it.

Please don't mistake me for someone who is 'suggesting' it. I'm saying it loud and clear. You are using our war dead for petty partisan bullshit. That ain't a 'suggestion', it's an accusation.

And it sickens me. It sickens me from the left, and it sickens me from the right.

Got a number as to how many of my friends - our Military - you would like to see dead so that you can 'blame Obama'?

Please dont mistake me for someone who gives a rats ass about your accusation. Its my fucking opinion and ill pronounce it however i damn well please despite your dellicate feelings.