End the Occupation

[rhodescholar]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

You seem mentally ill, please choke to death at your next meal and make the world a better place.

 

[rhodescholar]

If there was no horrible, big bully aggression by Israel and their backers, then they could have their land. Yes, they are elitist-egoists for being willing to put generation after generation through terror & violence just for a piece of land.
Save yourselves and thrive somewhere else.

You are too fucking stupid and uninformed to even begin conversing with. Go away, idiot.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, it did not. In fact the word "Palestine" is not mention in Article 30. In fact, the word "Palestine" is not mentioned anywhere in the entire treaty.

P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.

Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne said that the Palestinians would become citizens of Palestine. This complied with international law.

The people are the sovereigns in a territory. (The people of the place not the people from someplace else.)

Neither the LoN nor the Mandate annexed or otherwise claimed sovereignty over the territory. They held it in trust on the behalf of the people. The Mandate had neither land nor borders. The Mandate had no authority over land or borders. Palestine retained it land and borders after the Mandate left Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Article 30 does say "nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." Assuming that the word "state" is interpreted to mean government, THEN: the interpretation would be: nationals of the Territory to which the Mandate Applied.

But in NO CASE has the implication been made that in 1923, there was a "State of Palestine." The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory.

most Respectfully,
R

Actually, it did not. In fact the word "Palestine" is not mention in Article 30.

Neither was Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, or Iraq.

What is your point?

That not one of those nations could exist without the help of the LoN granting them lands and helping them set up a government. It was the treaty of Sevres that named the nations and that was ratified as part of Lausanne

 

[Phoenall]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Correct, now why did you miss out the part that says the borders will be those of the Mandate of Palestine to be called palestine for the purposes of this treaty ?

You really silly hoping that we wont look deeper into your links to find the parts that show you are wrong. The give away is starting the c&p in the middle of a sentence, monte was good at that and would run crying to mummy when caught out.


As an aside who signed these treaties for the palestinians, as that would be the clincher to prove it was a valid nation.You know like Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon all had people who signed these treaties................

 

[Phoenall]

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

In all that cut and paste frenzy, there's an item you missed.

From your link:

"The Security Council,

Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine,.."


Note: bolded emphasis was mine.

So?

What were the terms of the truce?

BOTH SIDES TO CEASE HOSTILITIES, a pity the arab muslims ignored this and carried on firing at Israeli children

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Correct, now why did you miss out the part that says the borders will be those of the Mandate of Palestine to be called palestine for the purposes of this treaty ?

You really silly hoping that we wont look deeper into your links to find the parts that show you are wrong. The give away is starting the c&p in the middle of a sentence, monte was good at that and would run crying to mummy when caught out.


As an aside who signed these treaties for the palestinians, as that would be the clincher to prove it was a valid nation.You know like Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon all had people who signed these treaties................

There was no Mandate in 1949.

 

[Phoenall]

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

In all that cut and paste frenzy, there's an item you missed.

From your link:

"The Security Council,

Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine,.."


Note: bolded emphasis was mine.

In all that cut and paste frenzy,​

You asked. Now you can't say I ducked.

We can because you failed to post the parts that said there was no nation of palestine just the mandate of palestine

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, it did not. In fact the word "Palestine" is not mention in Article 30. In fact, the word "Palestine" is not mentioned anywhere in the entire treaty.

P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.

Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne said that the Palestinians would become citizens of Palestine. This complied with international law.

The people are the sovereigns in a territory. (The people of the place not the people from someplace else.)

Neither the LoN nor the Mandate annexed or otherwise claimed sovereignty over the territory. They held it in trust on the behalf of the people. The Mandate had neither land nor borders. The Mandate had no authority over land or borders. Palestine retained it land and borders after the Mandate left Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Article 30 does say "nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." Assuming that the word "state" is interpreted to mean government, THEN: the interpretation would be: nationals of the Territory to which the Mandate Applied.

But in NO CASE has the implication been made that in 1923, there was a "State of Palestine." The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory.

most Respectfully,
R

Why do you pimp Israeli propaganda?

The Mandate was not Palestine.

Then palestine does not exist as the LoN were the legal land owners and they set up the mandates. You forget it was called the mandate of palestine, which you confuse with the mandatory of palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

In all that cut and paste frenzy, there's an item you missed.

From your link:

"The Security Council,

Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine,.."


Note: bolded emphasis was mine.

In all that cut and paste frenzy,​

You asked. Now you can't say I ducked.

We can because you failed to post the parts that said there was no nation of palestine just the mandate of palestine

My links did not mention a Mandate. The Mandate left Palestine the year before.

 

[Phoenall]

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Correct, now why did you miss out the part that says the borders will be those of the Mandate of Palestine to be called palestine for the purposes of this treaty ?

You really silly hoping that we wont look deeper into your links to find the parts that show you are wrong. The give away is starting the c&p in the middle of a sentence, monte was good at that and would run crying to mummy when caught out.


As an aside who signed these treaties for the palestinians, as that would be the clincher to prove it was a valid nation.You know like Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon all had people who signed these treaties................

There was no Mandate in 1949.

Yes there was as it cant end until the arab muslims either hand the land to Israel or declare full nation status. You need to stop confusing Britain as the mandatory and the actual mandate that sets out the rules for Britain to follow.

 

[Phoenall]

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

In all that cut and paste frenzy, there's an item you missed.

From your link:

"The Security Council,

Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine,.."


Note: bolded emphasis was mine.

In all that cut and paste frenzy,​

You asked. Now you can't say I ducked.

We can because you failed to post the parts that said there was no nation of palestine just the mandate of palestine

My links did not mention a Mandate. The Mandate left Palestine the year before.

WRONG that was the mandatory power, which you seem to think is the set of rules that had to be followed. The mandate is still in force because the land question is still not settled, and is overlooked by the UN as the successor to the LoN

 

[P F Tinmore]

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Correct, now why did you miss out the part that says the borders will be those of the Mandate of Palestine to be called palestine for the purposes of this treaty ?

You really silly hoping that we wont look deeper into your links to find the parts that show you are wrong. The give away is starting the c&p in the middle of a sentence, monte was good at that and would run crying to mummy when caught out.


As an aside who signed these treaties for the palestinians, as that would be the clincher to prove it was a valid nation.You know like Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon all had people who signed these treaties................

There was no Mandate in 1949.

Yes there was as it cant end until the arab muslims either hand the land to Israel or declare full nation status. You need to stop confusing Britain as the mandatory and the actual mandate that sets out the rules for Britain to follow.

Is that why it was a monumental flop?

 

[Phoenall]

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Correct, now why did you miss out the part that says the borders will be those of the Mandate of Palestine to be called palestine for the purposes of this treaty ?

You really silly hoping that we wont look deeper into your links to find the parts that show you are wrong. The give away is starting the c&p in the middle of a sentence, monte was good at that and would run crying to mummy when caught out.


As an aside who signed these treaties for the palestinians, as that would be the clincher to prove it was a valid nation.You know like Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon all had people who signed these treaties................

There was no Mandate in 1949.

Yes there was as it cant end until the arab muslims either hand the land to Israel or declare full nation status. You need to stop confusing Britain as the mandatory and the actual mandate that sets out the rules for Britain to follow.

Is that why it was a monumental flop?

Was it, because the UN refused to take action against the arab muslims when they invaded land under their protection to wipe out the Jews. The mandate system created most of the nations in the M.E. it was only when it tried to create a non islamic nation that things went wrong, proving that the muslims are not interested in anything but world domination

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

In all that cut and paste frenzy, there's an item you missed.

From your link:

"The Security Council,

Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine,.."


Note: bolded emphasis was mine.

In all that cut and paste frenzy,​

You asked. Now you can't say I ducked.

We can because you failed to post the parts that said there was no nation of palestine just the mandate of palestine

My links did not mention a Mandate. The Mandate left Palestine the year before.

WRONG that was the mandatory power, which you seem to think is the set of rules that had to be followed. The mandate is still in force because the land question is still not settled, and is overlooked by the UN as the successor to the LoN

There may be some truth to that. Britain passed the torch to the UNPC not to Israel.

 

[The Pipe]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

You seem mentally ill, please choke to death at your next meal and make the world a better place.

Wait, watch, and weep.
Your hostility is noted.
You deem yourself qualified to make mental health assessments and then request that a poster commit suicide---and you reckon leaving the world to the likes of you will make it a better place....
Swell logic, sissy.
You win.
You win the prize for The Big Dummy Award.
You done made yourself look like a goddang foooool.
Fool says what?

 

[Shusha]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

No you ducked the many answers given, as you have yet to produce a definitive deliniation of the borders according to the arab muslims

The Parties to the present Agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine,

and elsewhere shall not violate the international frontier;

follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
-------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
----------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
--------------------------------------
Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

Oh, give me a break. The use of the term Palestine as a geographical descriptor does not confer or confirm sovereignty of territory by a specific entity (a Government or State). And this claim of yours is especially silly given the details of the Armistice agreements -- specifically:

*that the agreements themselves are between Israel and other Parties and NOT between Palestine and other Parties
*that "Palestine" had no government at the time (other than Israel)
*that the Agreements themselves repeat over and over like a mantra that they are not intended to prejudice the "settlement of the Palestine question" for example: It is emphasised that it is not the purpose of this Agreement to establish, to recognise, to strengthen, or to weaken or nullify, in any way, any territorial, custodial or other rights, claims or interests which may be asserted by either Party in the area of Palestine or any part or locality thereof covered by this Agreement...

All you have managed to accomplish in ten pages of obfuscation is to confirm what we already know about your opinion which is that there is NO international boundary between Israel and "Palestine" -- a point I have agreed with since day one on this board.

The topic of this thread is whether or how Israel can unilaterally "end the occupation". And you have confirmed that you agree with me that she CAN'T (without destroying herself).

Which means the only way to achieve peace is through a mutual agreement defining territorial boundaries. Now, did you want to try to negotiate those boundaries with me on behalf of Team Palestine and attempt to find a solution? Or do you want to continue to do what the Palestinians do -- which is stomp your feet and demand the whole territory.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I SIS NOT say that; not at all.

Article 30 does say "nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." Assuming that the word "state" is interpreted to mean government, THEN: the interpretation would be: nationals of the Territory to which the Mandate Applied.

But in NO CASE has the implication been made that in 1923, there was a "State of Palestine." The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory.

Why do you pimp Israeli propaganda?

The Mandate was not Palestine.

(COMMENT)

It is important to understand, and understand the short title for what is means.

§ The first clause in the Preamble for the Mandate for Palestine (1922):

[The Allied] Powers [said:] the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them;
​

§ This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

•√• The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.
​

Neither the Mandatory Powers that were appointed of the Convention of Allied Powers, or the Council for the League of Nations had yet made an agreement which the exact boundaries of (what was to become) "Palestine." In 1922 the Boundary Commission Report was yet to be reviewed and accepted by the newly appointed Mandatory Powers. It had been submitted by Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet, French Army Surveyor, and Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, British Army, HM's Royal Engineers, leadership of the Boundary Commission.

This boundary definition was not to change until after the end of hostilities and the establishment of the Armistice Agreements of 1949, following the armed incursion across the frontiers.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I SIS NOT say that; not at all.

Article 30 does say "nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." Assuming that the word "state" is interpreted to mean government, THEN: the interpretation would be: nationals of the Territory to which the Mandate Applied.

But in NO CASE has the implication been made that in 1923, there was a "State of Palestine." The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory.

Why do you pimp Israeli propaganda?

The Mandate was not Palestine.

(COMMENT)

It is important to understand, and understand the short title for what is means.

§ The first clause in the Preamble for the Mandate for Palestine (1922):

[The Allied] Powers [said:] the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them;
​

§ This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

•√• The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.
​

Neither the Mandatory Powers that were appointed of the Convention of Allied Powers, or the Council for the League of Nations had yet made an agreement which the exact boundaries of (what was to become) "Palestine." In 1922 the Boundary Commission Report was yet to be reviewed and accepted by the newly appointed Mandatory Powers. It had been submitted by Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet, French Army Surveyor, and Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, British Army, HM's Royal Engineers, leadership of the Boundary Commission.

This boundary definition was not to change until after the end of hostilities and the establishment of the Armistice Agreements of 1949, following the armed incursion across the frontiers.

Most Respectfully,
R

Uhhh, OK???

This boundary definition was not to change until after the end of hostilities and the establishment of the Armistice Agreements of 1949, following the armed incursion across the frontiers.​

Do you have some links to that?

 

[Shusha]

Alright, since no one on Team Palestine seems to want to actually try to solve the problem and negotiate a solution....does anyone on Team Israel want to give it a go? I'll play for Team Palestine.

Opening play for Palestine:

One contiguous State incorporating the majority of the "West Bank" with land swaps, particularly areas east of Jerusalem in exchange for bordering neighborhoods in the north and south with high populations of Arab Palestinians. Eastern Jerusalem including the Old City and areas of Muslim religious significance. Hebron. The Jordan Valley and Jericho. Gaza.

Who's game?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This does not matter any more. It has been overtaken by event.

What were the terms of the truce?

(REFERENCE)

√ Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement, 24 February 1949:

Article XII
2. This Agreement, having been negotiated and concluded in pursuance of the resolution of the Security Council of 16 November 1948 calling for the establishment of an armistice in order to eliminate the threat to the peace in Palestine and to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved, except as provided in paragraph 3 of this Article.
​

√ Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979

Article II​

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
​

There is the very same type of document evidence pertaining to both the Armistice and Peace Treaty with Jordan.

(COMMENT)

It is probably more important to "stay on point" then to try and find a flaw or loop-hole in the Treaties. For the last 50 years, the Hostile Arab Palestinian was been trying to take issue with what was done. It should be quite obvious by now that pointing fingers towards the past and attempting to use it as some kind of justification is not working. It is time that a calmer heads prevail and that the Jihadist fade away. Otherwise there is not going to be any useful progress and Israel will gain even better political position than it has now.

Most Respectfully,
R