Empirical Falsification Of the CAGW meme.

[flacaltenn]

Gravity within a molecule deflects cooler photons away?

Sure, that's how a mirror works. I look into it. It KNOWS I'm cool -- so it reflects me back..

 

[IanC]

Photon counting is one my specialties. Glad you asked.

I am sure that you are counting something that you are calling photons...but at present, photons remain theoretical constructs...don't be fooled by your instrumentation

Yes, flacaltenn, you are counting "theoretical constructs". That's an awkward 7 syllable phrase. There must be a simpler word for that.

Heed SSDD. Don't be fooled by observable, measurable, testable, repeatable theoretical constructs.

theoretical constructs == hallucinatory sparkly thingies ???

SSDD only has a few tools in his toolbox. As the old adage goes- to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

He keeps trying to pound his squared peg into every shaped hole, whether it fits or not.

 

[IanC]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

 

[SSDD]

Photon counting is one my specialties. Glad you asked.

I am sure that you are counting something that you are calling photons...but at present, photons remain theoretical constructs...don't be fooled by your instrumentation

Yes, flacaltenn, you are counting "theoretical constructs". That's an awkward 7 syllable phrase. There must be a simpler word for that.

Heed SSDD. Don't be fooled by observable, measurable, testable, repeatable theoretical constructs.

I'm going to contact the FDA today.. And ask them to withdraw approval for four different measurement devices. On the basis that someone on the Internet told me that photons were just a figment of my imagination. And as such -- the operation of such machines is simply an exercise in faith...

Probably means I have to refund close to $250,000 in development fees that I was paid. BUT --

Appeals to ridicule won't make photons anything other than theoretical particles...

From Observables to Unobservables in Science and Philosophy

Clip pp 214,215: "That is to say that as long as they exist, photons necessarily move at 300,000 kilometers per second. But photons are theoretical entities; they are postulated in hypotheses to account for esoteric phenomena not a part of ordinary experience, and on that account we might be accused of resorting to the purely conceptual to illustrate our point."

 

[SSDD]

Photon counting is one my specialties. Glad you asked.

I am sure that you are counting something that you are calling photons...but at present, photons remain theoretical constructs...don't be fooled by your instrumentation

Yes, flacaltenn, you are counting "theoretical constructs". That's an awkward 7 syllable phrase. There must be a simpler word for that.

Heed SSDD. Don't be fooled by observable, measurable, testable, repeatable theoretical constructs.

theoretical constructs == hallucinatory sparkly thingies ???

SSDD only has a few tools in his toolbox. As the old adage goes- to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

He keeps trying to pound his squared peg into every shaped hole, whether it fits or not.

Afraid that describes you ian...

 

[SSDD]

Gravity within a molecule deflects cooler photons away?

Sure, that's how a mirror works. I look into it. It KNOWS I'm cool -- so it reflects me back..

What is the temperature of the source that is lighting your face?

 

[flacaltenn]

Photon counting is one my specialties. Glad you asked.

I am sure that you are counting something that you are calling photons...but at present, photons remain theoretical constructs...don't be fooled by your instrumentation

Yes, flacaltenn, you are counting "theoretical constructs". That's an awkward 7 syllable phrase. There must be a simpler word for that.

Heed SSDD. Don't be fooled by observable, measurable, testable, repeatable theoretical constructs.

I'm going to contact the FDA today.. And ask them to withdraw approval for four different measurement devices. On the basis that someone on the Internet told me that photons were just a figment of my imagination. And as such -- the operation of such machines is simply an exercise in faith...

Probably means I have to refund close to $250,000 in development fees that I was paid. BUT --

Appeals to ridicule won't make photons anything other than theoretical particles...

From Observables to Unobservables in Science and Philosophy

Clip pp 214,215: "That is to say that as long as they exist, photons necessarily move at 300,000 kilometers per second. But photons are theoretical entities; they are postulated in hypotheses to account for esoteric phenomena not a part of ordinary experience, and on that account we might be accused of resorting to the purely conceptual to illustrate our point."

You snipped off the BEGINNING of that quote. Explaining WHY photons have an esoteric nature. And that is that they only exist in motion. Nothing in the Title or quote says "they don't exist".

Let's try a REAL physics reference paper..

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/1999/jul/16/first-for-single-photon-measurements


First for single-photon measurements
Jul 16, 1999
The ability of physicists to control single quantum particles, such as individual atoms and photons, has increased greatly in recent years and has allowed many "thought" experiments to be actually performed in the laboratory. Experimental techniques have now advanced to the stage where it is possible to repeatedly observe a single photon without destroying it. In this latest breakthrough physicists at the Ecole Normale Supérieure in Paris used rubidium atoms to observe the photon in a superconducting niobium cavity (Nature 400 239).

Photons are traditionally detected by converting their energy into an electric signal, which destroys the photon in the process. An additional problem in quantum measurements is that if one variable - say the position - is measured accurately, then the consequent uncertainty in another, incompatible variable - the momentum in this example - will mean that future measurements of the position will yield different results. For photons the intensity (or photon number) and the phase are related through the uncertainty principle. Although various so-called quantum non-demolition (QND) measurement schemes have been demonstrated in which the photon intensity can be measured without destroying the photons, these experiments only work for macroscopic photon fluxes. Michel Brune, Jean-Michel Raimond, Serge Haroche and co-workers in Paris have now performed the first QND measurement on a single photon.

Go tell all these confused people that they are controlling and measuring just a theoretical construct. It's a construct for which we have rules, measurements and repeatable empirical observations.

 

[Billy_Bob]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

 

[SSDD]

You snipped off the BEGINNING of that quote. Explaining WHY photons have an esoteric nature. And that is that they only exist in motion. Nothing in the Title or quote says "they don't exist".

I didn't say that they don't exist...I said that today, they are a theoretical particle. You guys who get so into the models that you start speaking of theory, and theoretical particles as if they were reality have apparently lost the ability to differentiate between reality and fiction. Photon is a story we tell because we don't understand the nature of light yet. Photon explains some things that we observe but don't yet understand. The story is subject to change as our ability to observe becomes better.

Theoretical construct...no matter how much you claim otherwise....and railing against anyone who points this out...or an inability to simply acknowledge that a thing is a theoretical thing not actually proven in reality suggests some odd psychology at work....it seems that all of science is developing some very odd psychology...

 

[SSDD]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

Even with literally millions of hours of experiment, and industry observation and measurement, they will not give up the failed hypothesis. It has become a religion to these people...not a science. If it were a science, then skepticism would rule and 100 hours of observation of IR NOT WARMING the air would raise the red question flags...much less more than a century of such observation.

 

[IanC]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

What a steaming pile of nonsense!

You aren't even trying to be coherent anymore. Get back on your meds.

 

[SSDD]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

What a steaming pile of nonsense!

You aren't even trying to be coherent anymore. Get back on your meds.

There is a reason that IR can't warm the air and a great deal of evidence observations and experiment support that claim...what is your explanation?

 

[IanC]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

What a steaming pile of nonsense!

You aren't even trying to be coherent anymore. Get back on your meds.

There is a reason that IR can't warm the air and a great deal of evidence observations and experiment support that claim...what is your explanation?

Give me a laser that outputs at 15 microns and I will show you how IR can heat CO2, which would then pass energy to the rest of the molecules by collision and raise the temperature of the air.

 

[flacaltenn]

You snipped off the BEGINNING of that quote. Explaining WHY photons have an esoteric nature. And that is that they only exist in motion. Nothing in the Title or quote says "they don't exist".

I didn't say that they don't exist...I said that today, they are a theoretical particle. You guys who get so into the models that you start speaking of theory, and theoretical particles as if they were reality have apparently lost the ability to differentiate between reality and fiction. Photon is a story we tell because we don't understand the nature of light yet. Photon explains some things that we observe but don't yet understand. The story is subject to change as our ability to observe becomes better.

Theoretical construct...no matter how much you claim otherwise....and railing against anyone who points this out...or an inability to simply acknowledge that a thing is a theoretical thing not actually proven in reality suggests some odd psychology at work....it seems that all of science is developing some very odd psychology...

Photons are no more theoretical than our understanding of gravity. In either case, it's not necessary to go deeper into "internalizing" what these things are. Because the rules they follow are known explicitly and CAN be repeatedly observed and verified. You're grasping at any flotsam from the wreckage to stay afloat..

We KNOW photons follow the rules for Electromagnetic propagation. And we KNOW the energy they contain, the way their emission frequencies are derived, the fact that the energy in quanitized at the quantum level, etc, etc, etc.

 

[SSDD]

Give me a laser that outputs at 15 microns and I will show you how IR can heat CO2, which would then pass energy to the rest of the molecules by collision and raise the temperature of the air.

If we are talking about passing energy via conduction, then we aren't talking about a radiative greenhouse effect, are we? In your example, the air is being warmed via conduction, not IR.

 

[SSDD]

Photons are no more theoretical than our understanding of gravity. In either case, it's not necessary to go deeper into "internalizing" what these things are. Because the rules they follow are known explicitly and CAN be repeatedly observed and verified. You're grasping at any flotsam from the wreckage to stay afloat..

Our understanding of the fundamental mechanism of gravity is theoretical as well...we can make predictions based on our observations, but we don't know how gravity operates...

We KNOW photons follow the rules for Electromagnetic propagation. And we KNOW the energy they contain, the way their emission frequencies are derived, the fact that the energy in quanitized at the quantum level, etc, etc, etc.

Rail all you like...photons, as they are described by science, remain theoretical particles...

 

[Wuwei]

Rail all you like...photons, as they are described by science, remain theoretical particles...

So what if they are theoretical. Just how does that change the way QM is used or how scientists develop new applications?

 

[SSDD]

Rail all you like...photons, as they are described by science, remain theoretical particles...

So what if they are theoretical. Just how does that change the way QM is used or how scientists develop new applications?

The point is to point out a symptom...that being accepting the hypothetical, theoretical, and modeled as if they were reality...speaking of them in terms of reality rather than theory or hypothesis...beleiving that we actually know things that we don't and trying to apply that belief as if it were reality.

 

[Wuwei]

The point is to point out a symptom...that being accepting the hypothetical, theoretical, and modeled as if they were reality...speaking of them in terms of reality rather than theory or hypothesis...beleiving that we actually know things that we don't and trying to apply that belief as if it were reality.

Sure I agree you can think of it that way if you want. But I leave the study of the deep concept of reality to philosophers or religion. The hard sciences have been able to quite adequately deal with engineering, inventions, science experiments, mathematical models, etc to handle a wide breadth of applications and predictions that work quite well in our (real?) world. Just what is the reality of the universe? It's a nice thing to think about every once in a while, but it is not necessary to grasp in order to function in science.

 

[IanC]

Give me a laser that outputs at 15 microns and I will show you how IR can heat CO2, which would then pass energy to the rest of the molecules by collision and raise the temperature of the air.

If we are talking about passing energy via conduction, then we aren't talking about a radiative greenhouse effect, are we? In your example, the air is being warmed via conduction, not IR.

The total energy of the atmosphere is increased by GHGs absorbing radiation energy. The energy of the atmosphere is constantly changing form through molecular collision. When it is in kinetic form, that is measured as temperature, and it is indicative of the total energy but not perfectly so.