Does true and false exist perfectly in the real world?

[IsaacNewton]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

 

[zaangalewa]

I'm a German and I understand what you say here - in my way, not in your way. The english language is for me cloudy and unclear - and what I call "meine wundervolle Sprache voll himmelsklarer Poesie und tiefgründiger Weisheit" is for you dark and unknown. Fortunatelly exists a world of ideas - a pure spiritual world - which is common between all human beings. That's why we are able to find the ideas of different cultures in the different languages - and we are able to compare this with our ideas. We are able to find the common elements and are able to eliminate unimportant sideeffects and so on and so on. As far as I know should this world of ideas, where we use different names or sounds for ideas, also be compatible with every "intelligent species" in this universe here, because physics is using the world of ideas too - it uses mathematics - and we are able to make in physics or any other natural science sensefull 'prophecies' for experiments. In this case an idea find its truth in the reality. Sure is the moon not [only] a perfect circle for example - but he is circle too and his volume - ¿his? : the moon is male in the german language and the sun is female - is 4/3*pi*r^3, if I remember well.

German is one of many obsolete languages and will soon be overshadowed by one of the other top 6:

- English
- Spanish
- Chinese
- Arabic
- Hindi
- Russian

And what has this to do with anything what I ever said in my life?

 

[zaangalewa]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

A spear is not "objective reality" in sense of a natural law or a materialistic form of philosophy. A spear (object) is a realized idea of an human being (subject). The statement "most people are not educated" [so I am right] shows only your own arrogance.

 

[Mindful]

English is defined more by what we don't say, than by what we do say. We communicate in a sort of code.

 

[Mindful]

Down to the basics:

Is the moon still there when you don't look at it?

 

[IsaacNewton]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

A spear is not "objective reality" in sense of a natural law or a materialistic form of philosophy. A spear (object) is a realized idea of an human being (subject). The statement "most people are not educated" [so I am right] shows only your own arrogance.

LOL No I am only going by statistics. 75% of just the US population doesn't have a college degree. I made no moral judgement on those who don't, just a quantitative judgement on the amount of factual information one has if they are not educated.

You place other judgements on it.

Don't like spear? How about the sharp edge of a tree trunk that was struck by lightning.

 

[yiostheoy]

Down to the basics:

Is the moon still there when you don't look at it?

The speed of light is our best guide.

It takes light 1.28 seconds to reach the Earth from the Moon.

So when you see the moon what you see was really there 1.28 second ago.

It take light 8 mins and 20 secs to reach the Earth from the sun.

So when you see sunlight it has really been travelling 8 mins and 20 secs to reach you here.

This tells you that the Moon and the Sun were there just a few seconds or minutes ago from when you last saw them.

So it is still a pretty safe bet EMPIRICALLY and BY INFERENCE that they are still there now.

The Andromeda Galaxy, which is the furthest thing that the human eye can see unaided in the night sky, is 2.54 million light years away. So when you look up into the night sky and you see it towards the south in the constellation Andromeda during the summer and fall, it may or may not still be there.

We don't know.

The light travelling to Earth left Andromeda Galaxy 2.54 million years ago -- long before man even evolved on the planet Earth.

So if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?

Yes, because God hears it.

 

[jillian]

I was listening to someone talk about mathematics and he said that the number three exist perfectly in your mind. It is 3 and nothing more. A square exist in the same way because if you imagined a square in your mind it would be mathematically perfect but in the real world a square base of building may not be a perfect square at all since it's sides and angles may not be equal to one another. That by the way is the definition of a square. Would the concepts of true and false also be the same? In our minds it is perfect but in the real world it may not match what we are thinking. A good example is when a boss says 'this employee always works hard' and happens to not remember the few times when he didn't. He bases his logic on that which is 'this employee always words hard' as a true statement that is always true. In his mind it is true so he is able to make his judgements on that assumption but in real life it may not be as true as he thinks it is. Could he actually come to any conclusions about him without the absoluteness of the truth existing in his mind? Would his thoughts seem cloudy and unclear? Isn't it just easier to break our ideas into true and false just so we can have a some kind of idea of the world we can understand? It just seems like true and false has to exist as perfectly consistent things in our mind just so we can think build a picture of the world that we can comprehend in our own minds even though that picture may or may not be accurate.

there is fact.... and there is an absence of fact.

one is called reality... the other is BS. and a persistent refusal to acknowledge fact is not the same as there being no fact.

there is only one set of facts. they do not always fit neatly together. and there can be different opinions derived from those facts. but it doesn't change what the facts are.

what is in "your own mind" is irrelevant. and our shared reality is not the same as a discussion of physics and the nature of atoms.

 

[yiostheoy]

English is defined more by what we don't say, than by what we do say. We communicate in a sort of code.

Girlies do that, that's exactly right.

Manly men say what they mean and mean what they say however.

 

[yiostheoy]

I'm a German and I understand what you say here - in my way, not in your way. The english language is for me cloudy and unclear - and what I call "meine wundervolle Sprache voll himmelsklarer Poesie und tiefgründiger Weisheit" is for you dark and unknown. Fortunatelly exists a world of ideas - a pure spiritual world - which is common between all human beings. That's why we are able to find the ideas of different cultures in the different languages - and we are able to compare this with our ideas. We are able to find the common elements and are able to eliminate unimportant sideeffects and so on and so on. As far as I know should this world of ideas, where we use different names or sounds for ideas, also be compatible with every "intelligent species" in this universe here, because physics is using the world of ideas too - it uses mathematics - and we are able to make in physics or any other natural science sensefull 'prophecies' for experiments. In this case an idea find its truth in the reality. Sure is the moon not [only] a perfect circle for example - but he is circle too and his volume - ¿his? : the moon is male in the german language and the sun is female - is 4/3*pi*r^3, if I remember well.

German is one of many obsolete languages and will soon be overshadowed by one of the other top 6:

- English
- Spanish
- Chinese
- Arabic
- Hindi
- Russian

And what has this to do with anything what I ever said in my life?

Well as long as you speak English you should be fine.

 

[yiostheoy]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

Your are a British Empiricist. As am I.

 

[Mindful]

Down to the basics:

Is the moon still there when you don't look at it?

The speed of light is our best guide.

It takes light 1.28 seconds to reach the Earth from the Moon.

So when you see the moon what you see was really there 1.28 second ago.

It take light 8 mins and 20 secs to reach the Earth from the sun.

So when you see sunlight it has really been travelling 8 mins and 20 secs to reach you here.

This tells you that the Moon and the Sun were there just a few seconds or minutes ago from when you last saw them.

So it is still a pretty safe bet EMPIRICALLY and BY INFERENCE that they are still there now.

The Andromeda Galaxy, which is the furthest thing that the human eye can see unaided in the night sky, is 2.54 million light years away. So when you look up into the night sky and you see it towards the south in the constellation Andromeda during the summer and fall, it may or may not still be there.

We don't know.

The light travelling to Earth left Andromeda Galaxy 2.54 million years ago -- long before man even evolved on the planet Earth.

So if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?

Yes, because God hears it.

Logical.

But there's a school of thought that we create our own reality.

It's only there because we put it there.

Without our observance, there's nothing?

 

[Mindful]

I'm a German and I understand what you say here - in my way, not in your way. The english language is for me cloudy and unclear - and what I call "meine wundervolle Sprache voll himmelsklarer Poesie und tiefgründiger Weisheit" is for you dark and unknown. Fortunatelly exists a world of ideas - a pure spiritual world - which is common between all human beings. That's why we are able to find the ideas of different cultures in the different languages - and we are able to compare this with our ideas. We are able to find the common elements and are able to eliminate unimportant sideeffects and so on and so on. As far as I know should this world of ideas, where we use different names or sounds for ideas, also be compatible with every "intelligent species" in this universe here, because physics is using the world of ideas too - it uses mathematics - and we are able to make in physics or any other natural science sensefull 'prophecies' for experiments. In this case an idea find its truth in the reality. Sure is the moon not [only] a perfect circle for example - but he is circle too and his volume - ¿his? : the moon is male in the german language and the sun is female - is 4/3*pi*r^3, if I remember well.

German is one of many obsolete languages and will soon be overshadowed by one of the other top 6:

- English
- Spanish
- Chinese
- Arabic
- Hindi
- Russian

And what has this to do with anything what I ever said in my life?

Well as long as you speak English you should be fine.

That's not enough. They have to think it.

 

[zaangalewa]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

A spear is not "objective reality" in sense of a natural law or a materialistic form of philosophy. A spear (object) is a realized idea of an human being (subject). The statement "most people are not educated" [so I am right] shows only your own arrogance.

LOL No I am only going by statistics. 75% of just the US population doesn't have a college degree.

So what? Not everyone is able to be an idiot on the high level for academics.

I made no moral judgement on those who don't, just a quantitative judgement on the amount of factual information one has if they are not educated.

You place other judgements on it.

Don't like spear? How about the sharp edge of a tree trunk that was struck by lightning.

Everyone has a brain - a brain simulates the reality all around. If we see something then we see indeed electrochemical impulses on membranes of cells behind the eyes. And what changes this knowledge? A tree is a tree and we see it. There's an objective side of the tree - the tree as it is for itselve and the world all around - and there's a subjective side of the tree - the tree as it looks like for us - and there's also an intersubjective side of the tree. Bees for example have a different perception of the colors of flowers. So if we say a flower has one color - for example the color white - a bee could say it are two colors. So the bee has another idea about the colors of this flowers - but both ideas are realized. Behind both perceptions is a form of reality.

But says anyone who is "not educated" a spear will not kill him? Or says someone who thinks he is educated nonsense about other people he calls uneducated? I saw by the way some years ago an interesting video where a deer reacted not when a bad hunter shot three times and failed three times. Then it dissapeared because of the strange situation. It knew just simple not what a gunshot is. Why should it think a gunshot is dangerous? No one told it to him in an intersubjective way. In this case your example would be true. But human beings know normally what a spear is and they are always part of an intersubjective dimension too: normally everyone is able to communicate and to find out what's fake or true.

 

[IsaacNewton]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

A spear is not "objective reality" in sense of a natural law or a materialistic form of philosophy. A spear (object) is a realized idea of an human being (subject). The statement "most people are not educated" [so I am right] shows only your own arrogance.

LOL No I am only going by statistics. 75% of just the US population doesn't have a college degree.

So what? Not everyone is able to be an idiot on the high level for academics.

I made no moral judgement on those who don't, just a quantitative judgement on the amount of factual information one has if they are not educated.

You place other judgements on it.

Don't like spear? How about the sharp edge of a tree trunk that was struck by lightning.

Everyone has a brain - a brain simulates the reality all around. If we see something then we see indeed electrochemical impulses on membranes of cells behind the eyes. And what changes this knowledge? A tree is a tree and we see it. There's an objective side of the tree - the tree as it is for itselve and the world all around - and there's a subjective side of the tree - the tree as it looks like for us - and there's also an intersubjective side of the tree. Bees for example have a different perception of the colors of flowers. So if we say a flower has one color - for example the color white - a bee could say it are two colors. So the bee has another idea about the colors of this flowers - but both ideas are realized. Behind both perceptions is a form of reality.

But says anyone who is "not educated" a spear will not kill him? Or says someone who thinks he is educated nonsense about other people he calls uneducated? I saw by the way some years ago an interesting video where a deer reacted not when a bad hunter shot three times and failed three times. Then it dissaüpered becaue of teh strange situation. It knew just simple not what a gunshot is. Why should it think a gunshot is dangerous? No one told it to him i an intersubjective way. In this case your example would be true. But human beings know normally what a spear is.

Relax regarding 'uneducated'. It just means less education, not inferior morally.

And your point about seeing color and perception is a good one. I'm no expert but I think the pigments in things reflect certain color wavelengths and various eyes can either see that color or some form of grayscale. They don't see purple where we see green if there is no pigment that reflects a purple wavelength. But your point is valid. The subjective view of reality is determined by the senses of the organism. The objective reality though remains the same.

Humans have 5 million smell receptors, dogs have 220 million. This is the reason they can hunt or find something far better than us by smell. Certainly we perceive the smells of the world differently. But a dog would recognize a skunk the same or very similar as we would.

And you could go to the age old question, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there does it make a sound. If there is no ear, or audio sensory organ to receive the sonic waves the falling tree puts out then no sound is transmitted. However, the sonic wave, which is a physical reality that travels via air, IS present. The objective part of this reality IS there. All of the elements necessary to produce a sound are there physically. But without the receptor, what we would call 'a sound' does not happen. An explosion in space would also 'make no sound' as sound is produced when waves travel through the medium air and those waves strike a receptor, ear drum, which vibrates at the frequency of the produced wave. In space there is no air medium so no wave and no sound as it can't travel through a vacuum.

 

[zaangalewa]

I'm a German and I understand what you say here - in my way, not in your way. The english language is for me cloudy and unclear - and what I call "meine wundervolle Sprache voll himmelsklarer Poesie und tiefgründiger Weisheit" is for you dark and unknown. Fortunatelly exists a world of ideas - a pure spiritual world - which is common between all human beings. That's why we are able to find the ideas of different cultures in the different languages - and we are able to compare this with our ideas. We are able to find the common elements and are able to eliminate unimportant sideeffects and so on and so on. As far as I know should this world of ideas, where we use different names or sounds for ideas, also be compatible with every "intelligent species" in this universe here, because physics is using the world of ideas too - it uses mathematics - and we are able to make in physics or any other natural science sensefull 'prophecies' for experiments. In this case an idea find its truth in the reality. Sure is the moon not [only] a perfect circle for example - but he is circle too and his volume - ¿his? : the moon is male in the german language and the sun is female - is 4/3*pi*r^3, if I remember well.

German is one of many obsolete languages and will soon be overshadowed by one of the other top 6:

- English
- Spanish
- Chinese
- Arabic
- Hindi
- Russian

And what has this to do with anything what I ever said in my life?

Well as long as you speak English you should be fine.

What you say here is in my own language called "culture bolshewism". We take care not to lose languages. In Switzerland for example live since hundreds of years Germans, French, Italians and Raetoromans in the same country and speak their languages. English is for our culture only a new lingua franka. The first was latin, the second was french, the current lingua franka is english. I don't need english in my daily life. I don't speak it.

 

[Michelle420]

Yes, true and false exist perfectly in the real world. For example, an ant is never not an ant at the same time and in the same way as when its an ant.

Philosophically speaking, this falls in the category of British Empiricism.

Ergo, our senses give us our only knowledge of the external universe.

Be are born tabula rasa.

Our environment forms us.

Our environment consists of our parents, our friends, our teachers, our ministers, our schools, and our employers.

Something either exists or it does not exist.

And then there is the vast unknown.

For example, the half dozen or more classic proofs of God suggest there is a God. But we do not know it nor can we prove it.

We know that we exist. Rene Descartes taught us this as well as Cartesian Geometry.

It is a safe bet that others exist also, since they can give us joy and pain, and even kill us.

Any statement is either valid or invalid.

Therefore truth exists objectively.

Something is either true or false.

There are no unicorns. At least none that we have ever seen in 10,000 years of human civilization.

Meh it's relative.

 

[Michelle420]

right it's not absolute even him thinking therefore he is, is only part of belief that the reality he said it in is real.

Im not speaking from his pov

I can establish as an absolute fact that I exist, and only establish it to myself.... but not to you or anyone else.

My existing is not relative fact, its an absolute fact but I can only establish it as such to myself. Thats a limitation.

What if you were hypnotized and everything you thought to be true about yourself wasn't and then you were told to wake up and poof this existence you thought real was no more.

I dont think as an absolute fact that anything is true about myself....to begin with except for existing.

I can think of no scenario where I could........think, if i didnt exist -

That existence im experiencing could all indeed be some misleading thing, or a hallucination.....or a computer model.....

but i know i exist, at the very least - im either a computer mind, or a human one....or something spiritual or metaphysical .....maybe even in another dimension....maybe I AM a dimension...


but i know i exist or i couldnt be thinking

Like A.I. or gnr use your illusions, life is but a dream and then you wake up or die depending on what you think at the time right?

Wrong.

Your dumb

 

[zaangalewa]

It's too easy to walk off into a field of nonsense with this subject.

There is objective reality and subjective reality. Objective is the physical world, and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not it exists as do the laws that govern it. Subjective reality is how the brain interprets this physical reality. The more knowledge you have the sharper the image becomes.

Don't believe in gravity? It doesn't matter, it exists regardless of human belief. Don't believe a spear can end your life? The physical reality of an iron point piercing your skin and causing physical damage to your organs exists whether a mind believes it or not. Unfortunately for the human race most people are not educated and so find it hard to distinguish between objective reality and subjective reality.

A spear is not "objective reality" in sense of a natural law or a materialistic form of philosophy. A spear (object) is a realized idea of an human being (subject). The statement "most people are not educated" [so I am right] shows only your own arrogance.

LOL No I am only going by statistics. 75% of just the US population doesn't have a college degree.

So what? Not everyone is able to be an idiot on the high level for academics.

I made no moral judgement on those who don't, just a quantitative judgement on the amount of factual information one has if they are not educated.

You place other judgements on it.

Don't like spear? How about the sharp edge of a tree trunk that was struck by lightning.

Everyone has a brain - a brain simulates the reality all around. If we see something then we see indeed electrochemical impulses on membranes of cells behind the eyes. And what changes this knowledge? A tree is a tree and we see it. There's an objective side of the tree - the tree as it is for itselve and the world all around - and there's a subjective side of the tree - the tree as it looks like for us - and there's also an intersubjective side of the tree. Bees for example have a different perception of the colors of flowers. So if we say a flower has one color - for example the color white - a bee could say it are two colors. So the bee has another idea about the colors of this flowers - but both ideas are realized. Behind both perceptions is a form of reality.

But says anyone who is "not educated" a spear will not kill him? Or says someone who thinks he is educated nonsense about other people he calls uneducated? I saw by the way some years ago an interesting video where a deer reacted not when a bad hunter shot three times and failed three times. Then it dissaüpered becaue of teh strange situation. It knew just simple not what a gunshot is. Why should it think a gunshot is dangerous? No one told it to him i an intersubjective way. In this case your example would be true. But human beings know normally what a spear is.

Relax regarding 'uneducated'. It just means less education, not inferior morally.

I don't think in categories of elites.

And your point about seeing color and perception is a good one.

It says nothing about the reality of the world of ideas.

I'm no expert but I think the pigments in things reflect certain color wavelengths and various eyes can either see that color or some form of grayscale.

I guess Gustav Theodor Fechner (Psychophysics), who found out that the moon is made out of iodine (in english: "green cheese") would agree that perceptual psychology is not easy to understand.

They don't see purple where we see green if there is no pigment that reflects a purple wavelength. But your point is valid. The subjective view of reality is determined by the senses of the organism. The objective reality though remains the same.

Humans have 5 million smell receptors, dogs have 220 million. This is the reason they can hunt or find something far better than us by smell. Certainly we perceive the smells of the world differently. But a dog would recognize a skunk the same or very similar as we would.

I doubt about. Dogs eat what I never would eat. Not only the quantity also the quality of their perception seems to be different.

And you could go to the age old question, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there does it make a sound.

Yes. And the moon is also in the sky if no one takes a look at him. And the natural laws are everywhere in the universe the same laws.

If there is no ear, or audio sensory organ to receive the sonic waves the falling tree puts out then no sound is transmitted. However, the sonic wave, which is a physical reality that travels via air, IS present. The objective part of this reality IS there. All of the elements necessary to produce a sound are there physically. But without the receptor, what we would call 'a sound' does not happen. An explosion in space would also 'make no sound' as sound is produced when waves travel through the medium air and those waves strike a receptor, ear drum, which vibrates at the frequency of the produced wave. In space there is no air medium so no wave and no sound as it can't travel through a vacuum.

Do you say with this words we receive waves from the electromagnetic spectrum - excluding 20 - 20000 Hz?

 

[G.T.]

Id recommend 3 times inside of a professional sensory deprivation tank, for anyone.