Do you believe the war on drugs is a failure?

[Montrovant]

Oh heavens no. Certainly not all Americans would use drugs if they were available! There are the ones that will and the ones that won't. Of the ones that will, they should be afforded all the drugs they want. Drug users tend to die young. That means that drug use if left alone, is self-limiting. Sending people to endless and fruitless rehab is a waste of money, time and effort. It serves only to make people who run the rehab centers wealthy. Let the drug users - use!

I think you would be very surprised at just how many of your fellow Americans use recreational drugs, most typically marijuana. But you should understand the importance of being more specific about which drugs you are talking about and the critical difference between drug use and drug abuse. Because there are major differences at play here.

If you have a serious interest in this topic and you would care to be better informed about it I recommend the following book to you; Marijuana, The Forbidden Medicine, by Dr. Lester Grinspoon, MD, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Psychiatric Medicine, Harvard University Medical School. (Available from Amazon.)

In contrast with your theory of natural selection via unconstrained access to recreational drugs, Dr. Grinspoon advances the argument that while stress is known to be the leading cause of early death in America, moreso than any other single factor, the judicious use of certain recreational drugs, mainly marijuana, can significantly reduce the destructive effect of stress, thereby prolonging life. So unless you believe your opinion to be more authoritative than Dr. Grinspoon's it seems your theory is seriously flawed.


Your Chinese friends undoubtedly have been conditioned to think about recreational drug use in the context of smoking raw opium as a national pastime. So it follows that their impressions where the topic of drugs is concerned have been negatively influenced.

You might look at the connection between marijuana use and stroke, but that's up to you. I certainly don't care of potheads have strokes. It's none of my business. Best if they do anyway.

I believe that notion was addressed in response p.3, above. The educated consensus is marijuana use logically reduces the potential for having a stroke. But my guess is you don't want to believe that.

Right?

It's a shame that pro pot propaganda is so strong. You can choose to believe that marijuana use reduces the liklihood of stroke and I'm glad that you do, despite medical evidence to the contrary. Everyone who wants pot should be able to have as much as they want legally.

I was ALL drugs to be legalized and unrestricted. If you limit yourself to just pot, you are being a hypocrite. Why should you just indulge your own desires and leave the others? Legalize it all. Just allow the public to protect themselves with an unrestricted right of self defense.

As far as my fellow Americans go.... Now why would I be interested in what they are doing? Especially if "my fellow Americans" don't share my interests or values. It's a big and very multicultural nation. I am free to pick and choose from among this human banquet who my "fellows" really are. Less and less every day do I find them being Americans. In fact, I'm moving more and more towards the opinion of Americans held by the foreigners I deal with every day. Americans are nothing more than lazy drug addicts who go around with their hands out demanding baksheesh on the street corners and throwing a tantrum when they don't get it. I have come to agree with my Chinese friends "we believe in legalizing drugs, for you, not for us".

Legalize drugs. Americans will either crawl out of their drug induced torpor or they won't. If they don't, they will die, quite young. At least those won't be demanding baksheesh on the street corners.

You mean, the way alcohol being legal has led all drinkers to die young?

 

[FA_Q2]

Really?
Is the drug war a failure - of course. Is there ANYONE that thinks differently? I didn't go through the entire thread so I don't know but no matter what side of the fence you are on, the war on drugs has been a colossal failure.

Now to drugs legalization (and I do mean pretty much ALL drugs) all we have to look to is prohibition. It failed for the exact same reasons that the war on drugs has failed. You cannot control that which you make illegal. All you do is drive it underground where criminals and the disasters that they cause emerge. Legalize it and virtually every negative that come with drugs goes away and you can actually deal with the problems that are left. It is asinine (and completely at odds with those that claim small government/freedom as their mantle) to want the government telling you what you can and cannot put in your body.

 

[SillyWabbit]

Really?
Is the drug war a failure - of course. Is there ANYONE that thinks differently? I didn't go through the entire thread so I don't know but no matter what side of the fence you are on, the war on drugs has been a colossal failure.

Now to drugs legalization (and I do mean pretty much ALL drugs) all we have to look to is prohibition. It failed for the exact same reasons that the war on drugs has failed. You cannot control that which you make illegal. All you do is drive it underground where criminals and the disasters that they cause emerge. Legalize it and virtually every negative that come with drugs goes away and you can actually deal with the problems that are left. It is asinine (and completely at odds with those that claim small government/freedom as their mantle) to want the government telling you what you can and cannot put in your body.

The negatives do not simply go away.

Imprisoning people and assigning them criminal records for some things is asinine. It creates havoc where none would exist--and in the process creates more.

BUT, not everything needs to be legal.

Where does one draw the line?

Who draws the line?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg5ZcxBbYJY]Dead Kennedys - Where Do Ya Draw the Line - YouTube[/ame]

 

[FA_Q2]

Really?
Is the drug war a failure - of course. Is there ANYONE that thinks differently? I didn't go through the entire thread so I don't know but no matter what side of the fence you are on, the war on drugs has been a colossal failure.

Now to drugs legalization (and I do mean pretty much ALL drugs) all we have to look to is prohibition. It failed for the exact same reasons that the war on drugs has failed. You cannot control that which you make illegal. All you do is drive it underground where criminals and the disasters that they cause emerge. Legalize it and virtually every negative that come with drugs goes away and you can actually deal with the problems that are left. It is asinine (and completely at odds with those that claim small government/freedom as their mantle) to want the government telling you what you can and cannot put in your body.

The negatives do not simply go away.

Imprisoning people and assigning them criminal records for some things is asinine. It creates havoc where none would exist--and in the process creates more.

BUT, not everything needs to be legal.

Where does one draw the line?

Who draws the line?
(removed vid for brevity)

Not ALL the negative go away but MOST of them do. The imprisonment you mentioned is one of them. A HUGE portion of the border problem (as most of the issues going on there stem from illegal drug trafficking) will go away. Most of the problems that surround drugs do not actually have anything to do with drug use but the criminal element that surrounds it. Take that out of the equation and you are left with just the person, the problems that are associated with its actual use. Those issues are quite containable and, for the most part, only affect the user themselves and the people that surround him. I will not trivialize the impact a drug user has on a family. I know exactly what this is like having has a cocaine addicted father myself for many years but that is trivial to the problems that occurred to us and others because of the criminal element in his use. Not only that but the problem persisted for years longer than it had to because drug use is inherently hidden when it is illegal. When people are hiding their bad habits, it becomes far harder to address them.


Where do you draw the line? Well that is rather simple and complicated at the same time. The ling belongs in the same place that it does for alcohol, cigarettes, bleach and a thousand other products sold on a daily basis. Proper customer notification or potential hazards, simple free market policies and oversight on how such drugs are manufactured and sold are all we really need. People can make the choices for themselves.

 

[SillyWabbit]

We do make simple choices for ourselves everyday.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Your right to swing a frying pan ends where my nose begins.

All the things you talk about are regulated by government agencies. What change would make things any better--not just for the users, but also for those around them?

Who will lay down the law? Do we need law?

 

[FA_Q2]

Was I not clear? Ask something specific if I was not. I quite clearly said that drugs need to be legal but also regulated.

 

[Katzndogz]

Was I not clear? Ask something specific if I was not. I quite clearly said that drugs need to be legal but also regulated.

As soon as its regulated you have created a very lucrative black market. Legalize it all.

 

[FA_Q2]

Was I not clear? Ask something specific if I was not. I quite clearly said that drugs need to be legal but also regulated.

As soon as its regulated you have created a very lucrative black market. Legalize it all.

Yes, like the huge black market for beer, right? Or perhaps that booming black market for doughnuts, coffee, rice, cleaning products blah blah blah.

All regulated. Try again.

 

[Katzndogz]

Was I not clear? Ask something specific if I was not. I quite clearly said that drugs need to be legal but also regulated.

As soon as its regulated you have created a very lucrative black market. Legalize it all.

Yes, like the huge black market for beer, right? Or perhaps that booming black market for doughnuts, coffee, rice, cleaning products blah blah blah.

All regulated. Try again.

And all of them can make you high. Which is why heroin should be treated just like doughnuts and cocaine just like coffee.

Legalize it all. Unrestricted and unlimited. Speaking of which, why ever in the world are we trying to stop glue sniffing? It doesn't make sense does it, that all the people who would like to use a good quality glue that works have to be punished because some 12 year old wants to sniff it? The 12 year old should have as mucn right to glue as any one else.

Cleaning products, well that's a different story. Cleaning products harm the "environment", Mother Earth and Gaia doesn't like it so we end up with the Dishwasher Detergent Law in Washington.

Washington State's Dishwasher Detergent Law - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Unless the rotting corpses of drug addicts start polluting groundwater, you got nothing to worry about. Legalize it all.

 

[Katzndogz]

What's really funny is that regulating cleaning products really HAS resulted in a lucrative black market.

FREEDOM EDEN: Dishwasher Detergent Smugglers

Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it.

"Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty dishes I cannot live with

...Among other states that have banned or are banning phosphates in dishwasher detergent are Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. A bill on Capitol Hill would impose a nationwide ban.

Gads I love seeing this kind of stuff go on. What IDIOTS we are, what down and dirty (no pun intended) IDIOTS. Legalizing drugs is right up our alley. Legalizing drugs has an added benefit of removing users at younger and younger ages.

 

[Intense]

If so, what is your solution to drug abuse in America?

Do you believe the war on drugs is a failure?

It depends on what side you are on.

 

[SillyWabbit]

Now it comes:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE7OK9sMDvo]CBS: Prescription Drugs in Water Supply - YouTube[/ame]

Now I know why we're all just a wee bit whacked.

Yes:

You too.

 

[Katzndogz]

If so, what is your solution to drug abuse in America?

Do you believe the war on drugs is a failure?

It depends on what side you are on.

No matter what side you are on, this war on drugs at least, is a failure. The last war on drugs that was won by the non addict side was won by Chairman Mao, because he had the addicts and sellers taken to the nearest park and shot through the head.

The war on drugs can't be "won" without convincing people not to take drugs in the first place. Then reduce the number of addicts by natural attrition. If you are really stupid and want to die young, take drugs. If not, then die young.

The major contributor to drug addiction is the success of the government's efforts to separate children from families and parental control.

 

[FA_Q2]

What's really funny is that regulating cleaning products really HAS resulted in a lucrative black market.

FREEDOM EDEN: Dishwasher Detergent Smugglers

Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it.

"Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty dishes I cannot live with

...Among other states that have banned or are banning phosphates in dishwasher detergent are Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. A bill on Capitol Hill would impose a nationwide ban.

Gads I love seeing this kind of stuff go on. What IDIOTS we are, what down and dirty (no pun intended) IDIOTS. Legalizing drugs is right up our alley. Legalizing drugs has an added benefit of removing users at younger and younger ages.

Sure it has. There is a huge black market for dishwasher soap....

Give me a break. This is not a black market and has no resemblance to the terrible black market we see with drugs. You are being obtuse here.

 

[Katzndogz]

What's really funny is that regulating cleaning products really HAS resulted in a lucrative black market.

FREEDOM EDEN: Dishwasher Detergent Smugglers

Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it.

"Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty dishes I cannot live with

...Among other states that have banned or are banning phosphates in dishwasher detergent are Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. A bill on Capitol Hill would impose a nationwide ban.

Gads I love seeing this kind of stuff go on. What IDIOTS we are, what down and dirty (no pun intended) IDIOTS. Legalizing drugs is right up our alley. Legalizing drugs has an added benefit of removing users at younger and younger ages.

Sure it has. There is a huge black market for dishwasher soap....

Give me a break. This is not a black market and has no resemblance to the terrible black market we see with drugs. You are being obtuse here.

Nope. Just pointing out how regulating something doesn't end problems. Sometimes it starts them.

Regulating the sales or even manufacture of "recreational drugs" won't end the problems associated with them, but it will create new ones. It all needs to be unlimited and low cost. Otherwise you have a black market to undercut the costs, or provide something that the regulated market won't permit. Raise the price of doughnuts to $40.00 each, see how fast you will put black market doughnuts on the streets. Regulate Marijuana to maintain purity, and see how fast dealers will be pedalling pot laced with something on the same corners they occupied selling tame stuff.

Legalize it all and make it very low cost.

 

[Montrovant]

What's really funny is that regulating cleaning products really HAS resulted in a lucrative black market.

FREEDOM EDEN: Dishwasher Detergent Smugglers

Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it.

"Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty dishes I cannot live with

...Among other states that have banned or are banning phosphates in dishwasher detergent are Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. A bill on Capitol Hill would impose a nationwide ban.

Gads I love seeing this kind of stuff go on. What IDIOTS we are, what down and dirty (no pun intended) IDIOTS. Legalizing drugs is right up our alley. Legalizing drugs has an added benefit of removing users at younger and younger ages.

Sure it has. There is a huge black market for dishwasher soap....

Give me a break. This is not a black market and has no resemblance to the terrible black market we see with drugs. You are being obtuse here.

Nope. Just pointing out how regulating something doesn't end problems. Sometimes it starts them.

Regulating the sales or even manufacture of "recreational drugs" won't end the problems associated with them, but it will create new ones. It all needs to be unlimited and low cost. Otherwise you have a black market to undercut the costs, or provide something that the regulated market won't permit. Raise the price of doughnuts to $40.00 each, see how fast you will put black market doughnuts on the streets. Regulate Marijuana to maintain purity, and see how fast dealers will be pedalling pot laced with something on the same corners they occupied selling tame stuff.

Legalize it all and make it very low cost.

And again, do you mean it will have a big black market like there is for alcohol, or cigarettes?

 

[Katzndogz]

Sure it has. There is a huge black market for dishwasher soap....

Give me a break. This is not a black market and has no resemblance to the terrible black market we see with drugs. You are being obtuse here.

Nope. Just pointing out how regulating something doesn't end problems. Sometimes it starts them.

Regulating the sales or even manufacture of "recreational drugs" won't end the problems associated with them, but it will create new ones. It all needs to be unlimited and low cost. Otherwise you have a black market to undercut the costs, or provide something that the regulated market won't permit. Raise the price of doughnuts to $40.00 each, see how fast you will put black market doughnuts on the streets. Regulate Marijuana to maintain purity, and see how fast dealers will be pedalling pot laced with something on the same corners they occupied selling tame stuff.

Legalize it all and make it very low cost.

And again, do you mean it will have a big black market like there is for alcohol, or cigarettes?

Not alcohol, setting up distilleries is too expensive, but cigarettes, that's another story. The smugglers sell those for two bucks a pack.

Regulation usually works like regulating the porn industry in Los Angeles. In other words, making it one big expensive cluster fuck. There is no more porn being made in Los Angeles. Mostly because it is now regulated.

 

[Montrovant]

Nope. Just pointing out how regulating something doesn't end problems. Sometimes it starts them.

Regulating the sales or even manufacture of "recreational drugs" won't end the problems associated with them, but it will create new ones. It all needs to be unlimited and low cost. Otherwise you have a black market to undercut the costs, or provide something that the regulated market won't permit. Raise the price of doughnuts to $40.00 each, see how fast you will put black market doughnuts on the streets. Regulate Marijuana to maintain purity, and see how fast dealers will be pedalling pot laced with something on the same corners they occupied selling tame stuff.

Legalize it all and make it very low cost.

And again, do you mean it will have a big black market like there is for alcohol, or cigarettes?

Not alcohol, setting up distilleries is too expensive, but cigarettes, that's another story. The smugglers sell those for two bucks a pack.

Regulation usually works like regulating the porn industry in Los Angeles. In other words, making it one big expensive cluster fuck. There is no more porn being made in Los Angeles. Mostly because it is now regulated.

So there's a lot of cigarette smuggling going on? I find it odd that, in the close to 25 years I've been smoking, I've never seen someone selling black market cigs, never known anyone who claims to have bought black market cigs, never heard anyone say anything about black market cigs being available.

You talk a lot about legalization not having any effect on black market/illegal sales, but not only do you offer no evidence, the evidence we have of already legal drugs speaks against you.

Legalization would not instantly destroy drug cartels or gangs, etc., but the idea that it would make black market sales worse is, to put it politely, nothing but a speculative stretch.

 

[Katzndogz]

And again, do you mean it will have a big black market like there is for alcohol, or cigarettes?

Not alcohol, setting up distilleries is too expensive, but cigarettes, that's another story. The smugglers sell those for two bucks a pack.

Regulation usually works like regulating the porn industry in Los Angeles. In other words, making it one big expensive cluster fuck. There is no more porn being made in Los Angeles. Mostly because it is now regulated.

So there's a lot of cigarette smuggling going on? I find it odd that, in the close to 25 years I've been smoking, I've never seen someone selling black market cigs, never known anyone who claims to have bought black market cigs, never heard anyone say anything about black market cigs being available.

You talk a lot about legalization not having any effect on black market/illegal sales, but not only do you offer no evidence, the evidence we have of already legal drugs speaks against you.

Legalization would not instantly destroy drug cartels or gangs, etc., but the idea that it would make black market sales worse is, to put it politely, nothing but a speculative stretch.

I am SOOO glad you feel that way. I am absolutely for the legalization of all drugs. We can certainly afford to find out whether those cartels will just dry up and go away. All of them will just get jobs someplace. Legalization has many major benefits.

If you want stolen or smuggled cigs, just ask whoever your local drug dealer is. He knows. Or go the swap meet, they usually have a vendor.

On the other hand, the bit ticket black market item appears to be Tide laundry detergent. Although I'm not sure why.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Legalizing all drugs is stupid, there is no other way to describe it. If, for example, antibiotics were freely available stupid people would soon create super bugs. Gonorrrhea would be nothing to clap about.

A drug like MJ is widely abused, there is a huge black market and criminal enterprise in its production and sale. In parts of Northern California MJ is the major industry and one of the most profitable cash crops in a state known for agriculture

Much money is spent in the enforcement of MJ laws, so much so that the CA legislature passed 1000 PC in the early 1970's, allowing for the diveresion of those arrested for MJ possession. Of course the fact that the sons and daughters of judges and politicians were getting busted was a major factor in such legislation.

Today most police agencies in CA ignore simple use and possession. Why the feds continue to make MJ a priority is difficult to comprehend. The costs of enforcement incurred by the police, probation, prosecutors, public defenders and the courts is a waste of resources. If the DEA simply removed MJ from schedule I and allowed each state to regulate it production and distribution all of us would be way ahead.

The tax alone would help local and state governments; it would provide a reveue stream to treat drug abusers and not only those who use MJ. Arguments that school bus drivers would soon be driving while under the influence is an exaggeration; today MJ is used by bus drivers and school principles and in places of employment all over the nation, and so is alcohol and prescription drugs. Revenue from the decriminalization of MJ would provide for DOT required testing of school bus drivers and yes, there are very simple & cheap urine tests which reflect MJ use in minutes.

Policy which requires an employee to randomly test and to make any postive test cause for discipline (suspension or termination) are not only legal but required:

Office of Drug & Alcohol Policy & Compliance

The Omnibus Transportation Employee Testing Act of 1991 requires drug and alcohol testing of safety-sensitive transportation employees in aviation, trucking, railroads, mass transit, pipelines, and other transportation industries. DOT publishes rules on who must conduct drug and alcohol tests, how to conduct those tests, and what procedures to use when testing. These regulations cover all transportation employers, safety-sensitive transportation employees, and service agents – roughly 10 million people. Encompassed in 49 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 40, the Office of Drug & Alcohol Policy & Compliance (ODAPC) publishes, implements, and provides authoritative interpretations of these rules.

See link at:

U.S. Department of Transportation