Do those with employer sponsored HC have a right to force others to pay for it?

[Wilbur Right]

What post was that again?

You are a pot head eh? Cant remember what you wrote? And when you wrote it Roll another one dude. Party on.

 

[g5000]

Others are not necessarily paying more in taxes because of someone else's tax break.

Yes, they most certainly are. We are all paying higher tax rates to make up the difference of the $1.2 trillion of annual tax expenditures.

It's a government gift program, paid for by higher tax rates and heavy deficit borrowing.

If I am able to build a billion dollar company aided by getting a tax break on a legal deduction, I have created a tax base that did not exist before, adding to the countries tax revenues.

If you can't get a business going without taking from others, then you need a new business model.

 

[g5000]

In 2008, employers with employer sponsored health insurance got 131 BILLION dollars in tax breaks.

What are the largest tax expenditures?

That tax break was paid for either with taxes on employers and employees without healthcare insurance, or deficit dollars passed on to children, who didn't get a vote.

Great, you push for the employees to pay taxes on their benefits packages and then sit back and watch every union abandon your party.

Employer-sponsored health insurance is a massive labor boondoggle, and needs to go away.

Your employer's share of your health insurance payments is income not taxed. This is the single largest individual tax expenditure, and it causes all of us to have to pay higher tax rates.

Simply eliminate the employer sponsorship of health insurance, and replace it with pay which you would use to buy your own insurance yourself.

 

[g5000]

In 2008, employers with employer sponsored health insurance got 131 BILLION dollars in tax breaks.

What are the largest tax expenditures?

That tax break was paid for either with taxes on employers and employees without healthcare insurance, or deficit dollars passed on to children, who didn't get a vote.

That's only relevant if we were to assume the government is entitled to 100% of what corporations make.

Equating a lower tax burden with "getting" something only works if the gubmint is entitled to everything from you from the get-go. All that is happening is the government is taking less.. that is no gift.

It is a gift. Being taxed less than you would have been is, by definition, a gift.

If you are taxed less, someone else is taxed more to make up the difference. Your gift comes at someone else's expense.

It results in the insane system where people earning identical incomes are taxed wildly different amounts.

Eliminate all tax expenditures, and we could significantly lower tax rates, and balance the budget, and everyone earning identical incomes would pay identical taxes.

 

[g5000]

If a feudal lord had 20 serfs under him, and his annual expenditures came to $1000, he would have to tax each serf $50.

If he then took $200 of this money and returned it to 5 of his favorite serfs, he would have $800 left. Not enough to cover his $1000 in expenses. And so he needs to tax everyone an additional $10 to balance his books. In short, he would have to raise the tax rates by 20 percent on everyone to come out even and to give the $200 gift to his five favorites.

This is the system we have today.

Those 5 inner circle serfs tell themselves, "Woo hoo! I get to keep more of my money! Yay!", completely oblivious to the fact everyone is paying higher tax rates because of them, including themselves.

Instead of paying $50 in taxes, the other 15 serfs who are carrying them are paying $60 in taxes.

Bad for the economy. And wealth begins to concentrate up to the favored five.

 

[g5000]

Your Mortgage Interest Deduction is completely cancelled out by higher tax rates and higher home prices. You are not coming out ahead. You have been lied to. Viciously lied to.

$80 billion is given away each year in mortgage interest deductions. If that is being cancelled out at your level, then where is that money going?

It is going to the people who benefit from higher home prices. Mortgage lenders, commissioned brokers, and commissioned real estate agents.

This is a massive transfer of wealth from your pockets up the food chain. This is how wealth is being unnaturally concentrated through the legislative process.

You are being taken, rubes. Taken hard. Raped up the ass, and you don't even know it.

 

[Wilbur Right]

What post was that again?

Where did you go soggy? You smoking a big ole blunt arent ya?

 

[JoeMoma]

• What does IRS stand for? Internal Revenue Service! Taxes are revenue to the government. A tax deduction is a decrease in revenue, not an increase in expenditures.

That being said, the guy creating an income of $1,000,000 a year that adjusts that figure down to $990,000 for tax purposes due to $10K a year of health insurance is still paying plenty in taxes ( probably well over $200k) The government is not expending a dime to subsidize his health care.

 

[g5000]

• What does IRS stand for? Internal Revenue Service! Taxes are revenue to the government. A tax deduction is a decrease in revenue, not an increase in expenditures.

That being said, the guy creating an income of $1,000,000 a year that adjusts that figure down to $990,000 for tax purposes due to $10K a year of health insurance is still paying plenty in taxes ( probably well over $200k) The government is not expending a dime to subsidize his health care.

Read the words "A tax deduction is a decrease in revenue" until you understand the significance of that.

If your taxes are decreased by a deduction, someone else is taxed more to make up the decrease in revenue caused by your gift. Your gift comes at someone else's expense.

That is why every economist calls deductions, credits, and exemptions "tax expenditures". They are a cost which must be recouped from everyone else.

 

[bripat9643]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

 

[Arianrhod]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Even elective surgeries? Plastic surgeons would love that.

 

[bripat9643]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Even elective surgeries? Plastic surgeons would love that.

That's up to the legislature

 

[g5000]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Are you sure you are right wing? Because that is the antithesis of conservatism.

 

[bripat9643]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Are you sure you are right wing? Because that is the antithesis of conservatism.

So you think imposing taxes on everyone is "conservative" while eliminating some taxes is "liberal?"

 

[g5000]

We need government OUT of our lives as much as possible. We do not need government behavioral modification experiments which reward us with cheese for performing the way the government wants us to, and punishing us for not.

Did you buy a house and take out a mortage? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you buy the right kind of refrigerator? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you buy the right kind of health insurance? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you procreate? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Pseudo-conservatives who are actually liberals don't care if you earned an identical income as your neighbor. You are going to pay a radically higher tax bill for not being a good little mouse.

 

[g5000]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Are you sure you are right wing? Because that is the antithesis of conservatism.

So you think imposing taxes on everyone is "conservative" while eliminating some taxes is "liberal?"

I think giving you gifts at other people's expense is liberal.

Tax expenditures are the biggest government gift program out there, and they come at everyone's expense.

 

[JoeMoma]

• What does IRS stand for? Internal Revenue Service! Taxes are revenue to the government. A tax deduction is a decrease in revenue, not an increase in expenditures.

That being said, the guy creating an income of $1,000,000 a year that adjusts that figure down to $990,000 for tax purposes due to $10K a year of health insurance is still paying plenty in taxes ( probably well over $200k) The government is not expending a dime to subsidize his health care.

Read the words "A tax deduction is a decrease in revenue" until you understand the significance of that.

If your taxes are decreased by a deduction, someone else is taxed more to make up the decrease in revenue caused by your gift. Your gift comes at someone else's expense.

That is why every economist calls deductions, credits, and exemptions "tax expenditures". They are a cost which must be recouped from everyone else.

No it doesn't. If I somehow find an extra tax deduction to take on my taxes, your taxes don't automatically jump up by the same amount.

Also, I don't believe ALL economist call deductions, credits, and exemptions "tax expenditures". Some do, but they are idiots.

The people that are being robbed if any are future generations that will have to pay for the deficit spending that is going on now.

 

[Arianrhod]

Ah, but did you pay your employees with other people's money?

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Even elective surgeries? Plastic surgeons would love that.

That's up to the legislature

As a matter of fact, there's already Form 1040, Schedule A, Line 1. "Medical and dental expenses."

Not sure what you'd want to add to that.

 

[bripat9643]

We need government OUT of our lives as much as possible. We do not need government behavioral modification experiments which reward us with cheese for performing the way the government wants us to, and punishing us for not.

Did you buy a house and take out a mortage? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you buy the right kind of refrigerator? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you buy the right kind of health insurance? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Did you procreate? No? You will be punished with a higher tax bill than the good little mouse who did.

Pseudo-conservatives who are actually liberals don't care if you earned an identical income as your neighbor. You are going to pay a radically higher tax bill for not being a good little mouse.

Most such tax breaks were put in the code by Democrats.

 

[bripat9643]

Ummm...

All businesses pay employees with other peoples money. Unless it's not really a business and someone is just handing out cash.

A store buys a widget from ACME Manufacturing. It cost's them $10, they sell it for $12. They pay ACME the $10 for the widget. That leaves them with $2. Now sell a whole bunch of widgets, thingys, do-dads, and nick-a-brick. You now have money to pay expenses such as rent, utilities, employees, etc.

In each case the money comes from other people. Therefore all businesses pay their employee with money that comes from other people.


>>>>

Soooo, getting back to the takers cruising along on their employers' tax break-provided health insurance and bitching about "paying for somebody else" - i.e., those who provide their own insurance...what say you?

Here's the solution: make all healthcare expenditures tax deductible. Somehow I believe you won't approve.

Even elective surgeries? Plastic surgeons would love that.

That's up to the legislature

As a matter of fact, there's already Form 1040, Schedule A, Line 1. "Medical and dental expenses."

Not sure what you'd want to add to that.

You only get to deduct them if they are over $7000.