Divided, We Stand?

[Billy_Kinetta]

Nice sentiment, but either Pelley is dense as hell, or simply does not understand the nature of those who covet power for its own sake.

One does not normally unite with an enemy striving to fundamentally change the country into a model that has failed wherever forced.

The Democratic Party is no longer American, and must be driven from political authority.

There are 34 other political parties out there. It's not as if they are not expendable.

You advocate one party rule while claiming while claiming Democrats must be driven out of political authority.

I do not. I advocate the removal of a political force hostile to the American system of government. You comprehend the number 34, yes?

How unAmerican can you get? Being a Trump supporter puts the first foot on that path.

Defense of the Republic and foundational American thought cannot by its very nature be un-American.

Your assertions about the Democrat party have no basis in fact.

Not up on 20th Century history or the last two decades, huh?

Under Democrat rule the Great Ddpreseion ended, two World Wars were won, civil rights, voter rights and women’s rights were defended, Social Security and Medicare were established.

Just for starters -

The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

 

[Slade3200]

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

Well said! I also find it useful to ask questions and allow the person you are engaged with to explain their ideas. It helps me understand their knowledge and perspective but also allows room to find commonalities and expose flaws in their logic should flaws exist. At that point introducing alternative ideas can be explored. But it does take two to tango and often both are using flawed sources for information and the debate never gets below the surface.

Most people are not that knowledgeable on issues they support. So asking them to explain what they believe followed by non-accusatory questions lead people to the conclusion that they don't understand their position they are taking as well as they thought they did which makes it easier to negotiate with them.

Of course none of this is likely to work on USMB because most everyone here has come to do battle and vanquish the enemy, not to change opinions.

Yeah I see it happening both ways. Some
People get angry when they can’t explain themselves or back up their arguments. I think that’s why politics and religion are such contentious topics. It always puzzled me why people got so mad when talking about these topics and one thing that this board has taught me is that ego and ignorance both play a large part in where the anger comes from.

Those with humility and open minds seem to be willing and able to engage at a much higher level than those who troll and insult

 

[Silver Blooded]

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And calling somebody you don’t know a moron is useful in what way besides providing a false sense of superiority to compensate for deep rooted insecurities?

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

It begins in places just like this. We may post because we won't to change hearts and mind but what we really do is build walls between us such that the opposition hears only what confirms their position. What we should be doing is creating threads that are more neutral where ideas can be shared and agreements can be reached. And secondly, we should use techniques that actually work. Calling someone a stupid idiot will never change their opinion and will just derail the thread.

Do discussions on USMB of race, religion, abortion, climate change, illegal immigration, etc change the minds of the opposition? I think not and that's because posters are far more interesting in stating their own opinion than actually changing the opinions of others.

You’re right, most of what goes on here is trolling and fighting. I’ve engaged in some good debates which have caused me to rethink my positions and/or learn events and history that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve also been guilty of engaging in ugly attacking ways. In the end, we are all responsible for how we engage and we all need to better

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

You and Slade are both delusional in that you both think you can change the cultural divide in our country.

Yes, you are correct. Finding common ground is the best way to connect with someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum. My best friend is a liberal. She and I connected through Christianity and our love for work, BEFORE she found out I was a conservative. The only real change I've seen since she found out I'm rightwing is consideration for my different view points: she scolded her daughter for saying "I would just kill my babies, anyway," in front of me. Telling her daughter that she didn't know if that would offend me or not. I don't think she would have said that if she didn't know I was a conservative. But, other than that one event, nothing has really changed politically between either of us. Her beliefs are still wrong to me, and she still feels the same about mine, despite our countless discussions about abortion, poverty, and immigration.

Still, I got lucky because she's a good person that puts God and the needs of children before politics, because that's why our friendship didn't fall apart when she found out I was a conservative. I have a lot of liberal coworkers at my school and if all of them find out that I'm a conservative, I'm willing to bet a decent chunk are going to ostracize me for my political beliefs without asking *why* I'm a conservative. I've heard conservatives talking about this happening to them, especially gay and black conservatives from #walkaway. If the common ground between you isn't as strong as their political beliefs -- relationship dead.

This idea of repairing the divide by friendship is as much of a fantasy as the "race war" that racists keep saying is coming. The only way a race war will happen is if a catalyst happens. The same with this repair of the divide you're talking about. A catalyst needs to happen if the divide is going to be repaired. Until then, I'll stay silent in real life, and argue on the internet.

 

[Silver Blooded]

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And calling somebody you don’t know a moron is useful in what way besides providing a false sense of superiority to compensate for deep rooted insecurities?

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

It begins in places just like this. We may post because we won't to change hearts and mind but what we really do is build walls between us such that the opposition hears only what confirms their position. What we should be doing is creating threads that are more neutral where ideas can be shared and agreements can be reached. And secondly, we should use techniques that actually work. Calling someone a stupid idiot will never change their opinion and will just derail the thread.

Do discussions on USMB of race, religion, abortion, climate change, illegal immigration, etc change the minds of the opposition? I think not and that's because posters are far more interesting in stating their own opinion than actually changing the opinions of others.

You’re right, most of what goes on here is trolling and fighting. I’ve engaged in some good debates which have caused me to rethink my positions and/or learn events and history that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve also been guilty of engaging in ugly attacking ways. In the end, we are all responsible for how we engage and we all need to better

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

Yes I understand... you get enjoyment out of deluding yourself into thinking you are dominating your political enemy’s through insults and debate. In reality, nobody gives a shit. It’s childish and shows your personal insecurities but if that floats your boat then go right ahead.... also I didn’t take anything you said out of context. You made the point that if the world isn’t going to act defend then why should you and I was responding to that... here’s your statement.

“Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.”

If you get it, why do you keep beating the dead horse of how you're morally superior to me? You should already get it into your head that I don't care. Also, I didn't say you took something out of context - you misquoted me. I didn't say I was arguing on the internet because "everyone else is doing it," I said I was doing it because it's fun.

 

[NotYourBody]

There are 34 other political parties out there. It's not as if they are not expendable.

You might not know it bk but Putin is the real head of your party

I see it as a quadfecta of leadership belonging to Putin, MBS, Kim, and Trump. With Trump playing the role of the dimwitted tool.

 

[Slade3200]

And calling somebody you don’t know a moron is useful in what way besides providing a false sense of superiority to compensate for deep rooted insecurities?

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

You’re right, most of what goes on here is trolling and fighting. I’ve engaged in some good debates which have caused me to rethink my positions and/or learn events and history that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve also been guilty of engaging in ugly attacking ways. In the end, we are all responsible for how we engage and we all need to better

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

You and Slade are both delusional in that you both think you can change the cultural divide in our country.

Yes, you are correct. Finding common ground is the best way to connect with someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum. My best friend is a liberal. She and I connected through Christianity and our love for work, BEFORE she found out I was a conservative. The only real change I've seen since she found out I'm rightwing is consideration for my different view points: she scolded her daughter for saying "I would just kill my babies, anyway," in front of me. Telling her daughter that she didn't know if that would offend me or not. I don't think she would have said that if she didn't know I was a conservative. But, other than that one event, nothing has really changed politically between either of us. Her beliefs are still wrong to me, and she still feels the same about mine, despite our countless discussions about abortion, poverty, and immigration.

Still, I got lucky because she's a good person that puts God and the needs of children before politics, because that's why our friendship didn't fall apart when she found out I was a conservative. I have a lot of liberal coworkers at my school and if all of them find out that I'm a conservative, I'm willing to bet a decent chunk are going to ostracize me for my political beliefs without asking *why* I'm a conservative. I've heard conservatives talking about this happening to them, especially gay and black conservatives from #walkaway. If the common ground between you isn't as strong as their political beliefs -- relationship dead.

This idea of repairing the divide by friendship is as much of a fantasy as the "race war" that racists keep saying is coming. The only way a race war will happen is if a catalyst happens. The same with this repair of the divide you're talking about. A catalyst needs to happen if the divide is going to be repaired. Until then, I'll stay silent in real life, and argue on the internet.

I appreciate you sharing all that. I bet you have many friends in real life and many enemies on the Internet. It’s to bad you can’t be more genuine in your social life for fear of judgement from your political opposition.

In my opinion change starts one person at a time. The more hate and division that is sown, whether it be in real life or on the Internet the more the disconnect becomes. Your fights with Internet strangers is only going to feed your hatred for liberals and vice versa. That’s no way to foster acceptance, cooperation and unity.

You work in a school so perhaps you should apply your philosophy to the students. Would you encourage them to think and act the way you do?

 

[Slade3200]

And calling somebody you don’t know a moron is useful in what way besides providing a false sense of superiority to compensate for deep rooted insecurities?

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

You’re right, most of what goes on here is trolling and fighting. I’ve engaged in some good debates which have caused me to rethink my positions and/or learn events and history that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve also been guilty of engaging in ugly attacking ways. In the end, we are all responsible for how we engage and we all need to better

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

Yes I understand... you get enjoyment out of deluding yourself into thinking you are dominating your political enemy’s through insults and debate. In reality, nobody gives a shit. It’s childish and shows your personal insecurities but if that floats your boat then go right ahead.... also I didn’t take anything you said out of context. You made the point that if the world isn’t going to act defend then why should you and I was responding to that... here’s your statement.

“Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.”

If you get it, why do you keep beating the dead horse of how you're morally superior to me? You should already get it into your head that I don't care. Also, I didn't say you took something out of context - you misquoted me. I didn't say I was arguing on the internet because "everyone else is doing it," I said I was doing it because it's fun.

I don’t think I’m morally superior to you. That’s you injected that into the conversation. I’m simply expressing my point of view on the matter. You’re entitled to have yours as well.

I’m sorry if I misinterpreted what you said.

 

[Silver Blooded]

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

You and Slade are both delusional in that you both think you can change the cultural divide in our country.

Yes, you are correct. Finding common ground is the best way to connect with someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum. My best friend is a liberal. She and I connected through Christianity and our love for work, BEFORE she found out I was a conservative. The only real change I've seen since she found out I'm rightwing is consideration for my different view points: she scolded her daughter for saying "I would just kill my babies, anyway," in front of me. Telling her daughter that she didn't know if that would offend me or not. I don't think she would have said that if she didn't know I was a conservative. But, other than that one event, nothing has really changed politically between either of us. Her beliefs are still wrong to me, and she still feels the same about mine, despite our countless discussions about abortion, poverty, and immigration.

Still, I got lucky because she's a good person that puts God and the needs of children before politics, because that's why our friendship didn't fall apart when she found out I was a conservative. I have a lot of liberal coworkers at my school and if all of them find out that I'm a conservative, I'm willing to bet a decent chunk are going to ostracize me for my political beliefs without asking *why* I'm a conservative. I've heard conservatives talking about this happening to them, especially gay and black conservatives from #walkaway. If the common ground between you isn't as strong as their political beliefs -- relationship dead.

This idea of repairing the divide by friendship is as much of a fantasy as the "race war" that racists keep saying is coming. The only way a race war will happen is if a catalyst happens. The same with this repair of the divide you're talking about. A catalyst needs to happen if the divide is going to be repaired. Until then, I'll stay silent in real life, and argue on the internet.

I appreciate you sharing all that. I bet you have many friends in real life and many enemies on the Internet. It’s to bad you can’t be more genuine in your social life for fear of judgement from your political opposition.

In my opinion change starts one person at a time. The more hate and division that is sown, whether it be in real life or on the Internet the more the disconnect becomes. Your fights with Internet strangers is only going to feed your hatred for liberals and vice versa. That’s no way to foster acceptance, cooperation and unity.

You work in a school so perhaps you should apply your philosophy to the students. Would you encourage them to think and act the way you do?

Actually, USMB is pretty much the only place I socialize on the internet. In my opinion, one of the dangerous places for a teacher is social media. So, I don't have too many enemies on the internet aside from the ones I've made here. Although I've probably made quite a few in the one week I've been on this message board.

In my opinion, change has to be en masse. I mean, the civil rights movement was a massive group with many catalysts promoting it, adding to it, until things finally changed. One person at a time might cause a catalyst to happen, such as a Rosa Parks event. But otherwise, I can't see this country changing slowly towards harmony. Especially with the MSM promoting discourse. As for arguing promoting my hatred for liberals: I disagree. Shit that happens on USMB is completely insignificant to my life. Censorship in real life is what bothers me about liberals. But USMB is water off a duck's back to me.

And FUCK NO!!!! I would NEVER indoctrinate a student, and I DESPISE teachers that do. I enforce discipline for classroom management. If the student's can't behave, then they can't learn. But philosophies? Urgh... Teachers should just teach discipline and academic standards. Students need to develop their own opinions, or let their parents develop it for them. I see articles about teachers sending students home with political homework and it makes me sick. Plus, I'm currently K-2 sped, so none of this shit matters yet anyway. ABCs, colors, one-on-one correspondence, writing, and we're good for the day.

 

[emilynghiem]

And calling somebody you don’t know a moron is useful in what way besides providing a false sense of superiority to compensate for deep rooted insecurities?

Who gives a fuck whether it's useful? I said it was fun. It's fun to argue and beat people in arguments and debates. Trying to better ourselves won't fix this divide, unless the entire country is in agreements, and since that won't happen, I might as well use it to have some fun arguing with people on the internet.

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

You’re right, most of what goes on here is trolling and fighting. I’ve engaged in some good debates which have caused me to rethink my positions and/or learn events and history that I wasn’t aware of. I’ve also been guilty of engaging in ugly attacking ways. In the end, we are all responsible for how we engage and we all need to better

Yes, having civil discussions is nice, but nowhere near as fun as calling someone you don't know a fucking moron because they think making the 1% pay for everything will fix our country.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

You and Slade are both delusional in that you both think you can change the cultural divide in our country.

Yes, you are correct. Finding common ground is the best way to connect with someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum. My best friend is a liberal. She and I connected through Christianity and our love for work, BEFORE she found out I was a conservative. The only real change I've seen since she found out I'm rightwing is consideration for my different view points: she scolded her daughter for saying "I would just kill my babies, anyway," in front of me. Telling her daughter that she didn't know if that would offend me or not. I don't think she would have said that if she didn't know I was a conservative. But, other than that one event, nothing has really changed politically between either of us. Her beliefs are still wrong to me, and she still feels the same about mine, despite our countless discussions about abortion, poverty, and immigration.

Still, I got lucky because she's a good person that puts God and the needs of children before politics, because that's why our friendship didn't fall apart when she found out I was a conservative. I have a lot of liberal coworkers at my school and if all of them find out that I'm a conservative, I'm willing to bet a decent chunk are going to ostracize me for my political beliefs without asking *why* I'm a conservative. I've heard conservatives talking about this happening to them, especially gay and black conservatives from #walkaway. If the common ground between you isn't as strong as their political beliefs -- relationship dead.

This idea of repairing the divide by friendship is as much of a fantasy as the "race war" that racists keep saying is coming. The only way a race war will happen is if a catalyst happens. The same with this repair of the divide you're talking about. A catalyst needs to happen if the divide is going to be repaired. Until then, I'll stay silent in real life, and argue on the internet.

Dear Silver Blooded
Thank you especially for sharing this personal experience and relationship you have that encompasses the political divide.
I agree that we cannot expect to change each other's political BELIEFS.
However, I DO believe we can change our APPROACH and PERCEPTION/RELATIONS between people and groups
of different beliefs, and even opposing/conflicting beliefs.

What you and your friend have developed is ongoing RESPECT for each other's beliefs.
If we can do that one on one, then we can also do that COLLECTIVELY between groups of
people agreeing to take individuals as individuals, and not discriminate against individuals as a GROUP, invoking "mob or collective mentality" and "generalizations."

To deny someone liberty/due process because of the actions of OTHERS or actions of a GROUP is a form of oppression and abuse of power.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing personally, but if we start abridging and infringing on
individual rights, freedoms, respect and protections of the laws because of how we treat each other as GROUPS, this becomes abusive and oppressive.

As for arguing over the internet, this can be done Constructively with mutual give and take and exchange of information and experiences to expand and add to each other's perception and understanding.

Or it can be destructive, where as Slade3200 expressed it, the projection of negative reactions and rejection back and forth merely cements and reinforces divisive "stereotypes" as a GROUP (and "fear" that conflicts can't be resolved except by political or physical force) making it harder to achieve that "one on one" connection and respect for differences you have with your liberal friend.

That change in perspective to include each other regardless of conflicts or difference
IS WHAT IT TAKES to change the paradigm or dynamic in the political process --
from "adversarial" to cooperative,
from competing to "dominate" by exclusion or coercion to EQUAL INCLUSION of both sides' beliefs and seeking solutions that both can support without compromising core beliefs.

I support you in taking the dynamic that you have with your liberal friend,
and seeking the same with the people you argue with online.

You have more influence than you might think. Treating people with that same respect
goes a long way, what comes around goes around. The effort you invest in making relations
more civil and inclusive compels others to follow by example.

I'd like to encourage you to replicate more of the same. When we can have more open
honest dialogue, we have the opportunity to apply our diverse perspectives to put together
collaborative solutions that won't violate or exclude beliefs from one side or another, but
will accommodate and include all input so the focus is on the most effective approaches all people can support.

Thank you for this effort, and I pray and support you in applying this
to your circle of influence, both in real life direct relations and in interactions online.

Please do not underestimate the capacity you have to change how other people interact
based on your example. Change happens mutually, so the more you open up to receive
and accommodate others, they in turn open up more to work with you to the same degree.

I support you in that, and appreciate your outreach.
It IS ENOUGH to change how we use the political process, including online media.
Thanks!

 

[BrokeLoser]

How many stars in the American flag?

Fifty, you say? I'm not sure. If there were fifty, then citizens of liberal states and conservative states would join in common purpose on the blue field which is, after all, called, "the union."

Instead, it seems, we are recklessly tugging at the thread that holds us together. Today, liberals and conservatives barricade themselves in digital citadels where some media, with calculated bias, assure their viewers that what they already believe is correct. If we wall ourselves in castles of confirming information, I fear a new Cold War. This time, a cold civil war.

Given this danger, why do both parties promote almost nothing but divisive scandals? Because it is so much easier than health insurance or immigration reform. Taking on actual challenges would require work, and listening, and thought, and union.

"Divided, we stand"? Scott Pelley on our American flag, and our common purpose - CBS News

Pretty much correct.

The good news (if you want to call it that) is that the angry white men are dying off faster than ever thanks to the high fat/low fiber lifestyles of most in the South. With them, the bigotry, hatred, and (the worst part) the intellectual dishonesty and oneupmanship is dying off as well. So that is indeed good news. Not that people are dying but the basic bottom line result.

LefTard Logic:
“The old law abiding, heterosexual, Christian white guy who built this nation needs to die so the illegal wetbacks, faggots, men in dresses, Feminazi’s and degenerates can run this nation their way.”

 

[Kilroy2]

How many stars in the American flag?

Fifty, you say? I'm not sure. If there were fifty, then citizens of liberal states and conservative states would join in common purpose on the blue field which is, after all, called, "the union."

Instead, it seems, we are recklessly tugging at the thread that holds us together. Today, liberals and conservatives barricade themselves in digital citadels where some media, with calculated bias, assure their viewers that what they already believe is correct. If we wall ourselves in castles of confirming information, I fear a new Cold War. This time, a cold civil war.

Given this danger, why do both parties promote almost nothing but divisive scandals? Because it is so much easier than health insurance or immigration reform. Taking on actual challenges would require work, and listening, and thought, and union.

"Divided, we stand"? Scott Pelley on our American flag, and our common purpose - CBS News

No political entity is more irresponsibly divisive than the media. Both parties are held hostage to it and average citizens are just clickbait fodder.

My take is

Without media where would you get information, the street corner, the Internet, radio. your parents, local and government politicians

Media should just report the news and if they want to offer opinions as to what it means then offer both sides

The problem is people who can't handle all the information that is out there and they end up trusting one source over the other sources. The Kiss principle.

There is tons of information

The effort to tell the difference between fake news and facts is like trying to explain the difference between vanilla ice cream, strawberry ice cream, chocolate ice cream, and the various other flavors to a child who is just to busy enjoying eating it.

I would take free press over the State run news

The problem is politics and politicians and the truism that Power Corrupts weak minds

The ability to expose yourself to everything and then just save it for a rainy day

Is there really something wrong with being divided, I don't think think that it is if your able to listen to all sides. It can become a problem if you don't want to listen and except that people even though they are human beings have there differences.

It is human nature to have opposite sides but feeling of superiority ruins human nature

 

[Slade3200]

Well for somebody who likes to win arguments you just threw out a pretty piss poor one. We can only control our own actions. Doing something you know isn’t right because “everybody else is doing it” is a lesson we learn in grade school. People who do that lack character, integrity and personal responsibility.

Dude, can you read or is your brain out-to-lunch. I don't care. Keep sucking your own dick about morality - I'm having fun. Oh, and when did I say I'm arguing because "everybody else is doing it." Take that shit out of quotes you disingenuous fucker. I said I'm doing it because it's enjoyable. Not because it's moral. Not because everyone is doing it. Because it's fun. You can attack me all you want; I don't give a shit. I'm enjoying myself on this message board arguing, and you want to please yourself by sucking your own dick about morality and how arguing on the internet "isn't right" and that I "lack character" then go for it. That's what message boards are for. Real life is for real issues. You take this place way too fucking serious if you think shit that happens on USMB actually matters in any way.

And that is much of what USMB and similar forums are all about, a place to lash out against strangers with different beliefs, something you would never do at work or at home. It's also good entertainment, but not to be taken seriously.

Hey, that's why I joined. I have to sit at work and listen to people attack my political beliefs listen to Democrats talk about how all Republicans are racists, and stupid for supporting unborn children. Naturally, I'm not going to say anything to my coworkers, otherwise I'll be ostracized. So, I can come here and vent my frustrations. YES! And that's what I'm saying, but this dude is acting like discussions on the internet are fucking sacred. If REAL changes about the partisan divide are going to be made, it needs to start in the real world, not on a fucking internet message board.

I have lived in democrat and republican strongholds and have been members of both parties. Real change comes from people standing up for what they believe in the right way, not by hiding behind some fake montra on the internet and telling the opposition how stupid they are for not agreeing with you. That only assures they will not listen to you. You have to confront the opposition not as the enemy but as one seeking to work toward common goals which must be conciliatory enough in order to establish a dialog. For example, if you want to change someone's opinion that does not support reduction in greenhouse gases, begin by agreeing with them on the need for petroleum in order to start a meaningful dialog. The first step in changing the opinion of the opposition is get them to listen to you which won't happen as long as you are telling them how wrong and how stupid they are.

You and Slade are both delusional in that you both think you can change the cultural divide in our country.

Yes, you are correct. Finding common ground is the best way to connect with someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum. My best friend is a liberal. She and I connected through Christianity and our love for work, BEFORE she found out I was a conservative. The only real change I've seen since she found out I'm rightwing is consideration for my different view points: she scolded her daughter for saying "I would just kill my babies, anyway," in front of me. Telling her daughter that she didn't know if that would offend me or not. I don't think she would have said that if she didn't know I was a conservative. But, other than that one event, nothing has really changed politically between either of us. Her beliefs are still wrong to me, and she still feels the same about mine, despite our countless discussions about abortion, poverty, and immigration.

Still, I got lucky because she's a good person that puts God and the needs of children before politics, because that's why our friendship didn't fall apart when she found out I was a conservative. I have a lot of liberal coworkers at my school and if all of them find out that I'm a conservative, I'm willing to bet a decent chunk are going to ostracize me for my political beliefs without asking *why* I'm a conservative. I've heard conservatives talking about this happening to them, especially gay and black conservatives from #walkaway. If the common ground between you isn't as strong as their political beliefs -- relationship dead.

This idea of repairing the divide by friendship is as much of a fantasy as the "race war" that racists keep saying is coming. The only way a race war will happen is if a catalyst happens. The same with this repair of the divide you're talking about. A catalyst needs to happen if the divide is going to be repaired. Until then, I'll stay silent in real life, and argue on the internet.

I appreciate you sharing all that. I bet you have many friends in real life and many enemies on the Internet. It’s to bad you can’t be more genuine in your social life for fear of judgement from your political opposition.

In my opinion change starts one person at a time. The more hate and division that is sown, whether it be in real life or on the Internet the more the disconnect becomes. Your fights with Internet strangers is only going to feed your hatred for liberals and vice versa. That’s no way to foster acceptance, cooperation and unity.

You work in a school so perhaps you should apply your philosophy to the students. Would you encourage them to think and act the way you do?

Actually, USMB is pretty much the only place I socialize on the internet. In my opinion, one of the dangerous places for a teacher is social media. So, I don't have too many enemies on the internet aside from the ones I've made here. Although I've probably made quite a few in the one week I've been on this message board.

In my opinion, change has to be en masse. I mean, the civil rights movement was a massive group with many catalysts promoting it, adding to it, until things finally changed. One person at a time might cause a catalyst to happen, such as a Rosa Parks event. But otherwise, I can't see this country changing slowly towards harmony. Especially with the MSM promoting discourse. As for arguing promoting my hatred for liberals: I disagree. Shit that happens on USMB is completely insignificant to my life. Censorship in real life is what bothers me about liberals. But USMB is water off a duck's back to me.

And FUCK NO!!!! I would NEVER indoctrinate a student, and I DESPISE teachers that do. I enforce discipline for classroom management. If the student's can't behave, then they can't learn. But philosophies? Urgh... Teachers should just teach discipline and academic standards. Students need to develop their own opinions, or let their parents develop it for them. I see articles about teachers sending students home with political homework and it makes me sick. Plus, I'm currently K-2 sped, so none of this shit matters yet anyway. ABCs, colors, one-on-one correspondence, writing, and we're good for the day.

I wasn’t talking about indoctrinating the kids. It was a hypothetical way of looking at your actions

 

[Dale Smith]

How many stars in the American flag?

Fifty, you say? I'm not sure. If there were fifty, then citizens of liberal states and conservative states would join in common purpose on the blue field which is, after all, called, "the union."

Instead, it seems, we are recklessly tugging at the thread that holds us together. Today, liberals and conservatives barricade themselves in digital citadels where some media, with calculated bias, assure their viewers that what they already believe is correct. If we wall ourselves in castles of confirming information, I fear a new Cold War. This time, a cold civil war.

Given this danger, why do both parties promote almost nothing but divisive scandals? Because it is so much easier than health insurance or immigration reform. Taking on actual challenges would require work, and listening, and thought, and union.

"Divided, we stand"? Scott Pelley on our American flag, and our common purpose - CBS News

Our "gubermint" is a foreign owned corporation that owns both political parties.

 

[emilynghiem]

LefTard Logic:
“The old law abiding, heterosexual, Christian white guy who built this nation needs to die so the illegal wetbacks, faggots, men in dresses, Feminazi’s and degenerates can run this nation their way.”

Dear BrokeLoser it's more like karmic justice:
the same people complaining of oppression by "White privileged males and heterosexual Christians"
end up persecuting, judging, blaming and rejecting
said groups based on RACE, Religion, class, and beliefs about gender/orientation
in order to commit the same wrongs and discrimination but in reverse.

Two wrongs don't make either right, but prove
anyone can look just as unjust and hypocritical
as we complain and judge others for. As soon as we
recognize this and accept this, we can start treating each other
as equals instead of thinking our view or group is more right than others.
Yes and no. For every point we get right, there are other groups with
corrections for us, so it comes out even. It's a mutual exchange.

This mutual flaws remind us we are equally capable of falling into the same trap
for which we judge and blame our neighbor. We don't understand
how they could have discriminated against others this way
"thinking it was right and in the best interest of humanity"
until we walk in the same shoes.

The purpose of this exercise is to show people are relatively equal.
None of us is more or less to blame than any other person.
We all contribute to problems as well as to solutions.​

 

[Pete7469]

You don't change anyone's opinion by insulting them. It either ends the discussion are just produces more insults.

You're right, but I have yet to see anyone change their opinion through intellectual polite discussion either.

It's the outside observer who either changes their opinion, or keeps it to themselves when they see someone made to look like a complete imbecile while struggling to make an argument in favor of failed regressive policies that have destroyed countries, impoverished 100's of millions, and killed 100+ million through forced famine or systematic murder.

People should be embarrassed if they're insisting there is a Great Santa Marx that lives underground in Moscow. It's as if they believe there really is some guy, divorced, remarried to Ho Chi Mihn, who freed the elves then purged them for converting to Buddism, travels around the world on non-secular holidays handing out free shit to non-white, non-Christian impoverished people from a sleigh pulled by 13 gender neutral rein deer.

That's how stupid liberals look to me when they talk.


.

 

[emilynghiem]

You don't change anyone's opinion by insulting them. It either ends the discussion are just produces more insults.

You're right, but I have yet to see anyone change their opinion through intellectual polite discussion either.

It's the outside observer who either changes their opinion, or keeps it to themselves when they see someone made to look like a complete imbecile while struggling to make an argument in favor of failed regressive policies that have destroyed countries, impoverished 100's of millions, and killed 100+ million through forced famine or systematic murder.

People should be embarrassed if they're insisting there is a Great Santa Marx that lives underground in Moscow. It's as if they believe there really is some guy, divorced, remarried to Ho Chi Mihn, who freed the elves then purged them for converting to Buddism, travels around the world on non-secular holidays handing out free shit to non-white, non-Christian impoverished people from a sleigh pulled by 13 gender neutral rein deer.

That's how stupid liberals look to me when they talk.


.

Yes and no Pete7469
our beliefs may not change, but our perception and approach to
conflict and to people or groups of different beliefs change mutually.

For everything you share with someone, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Change happens mutually.

So as long as you are gaining new insights and information, that's enough.
That means others are gaining as much from you, either directly or indirectly,
whether they verbally confirm this or not. You make as much a difference
in influencing others online as they do for you. We all do. Whether we say it or not.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is why Pelosi refuses to consider the new trade agreements negotiated with Canada and Mexico

That's not what the US Trade representative says:

"Senate Republicans said on Tuesday that Lighthizer believes that negotiations with Pelosi over passage of the trade deal were making progress and being handled “in good faith.” - Reuters, 5/23/19

Apparently your knowledge of this comes only from trump tweets.

she refuses to consider infrastructure repair and development unless Trump rolls back his tax cuts

Haha...what embarrassing, cultist nonsense. Just this week she met with trump on infrastructure. He instantly had an embarrasing little toddlerish hissy fit and stomped out.

she refuses the same immigration reforms Trump proposed which are identical to the immigration reforms the Democrats wanted in Schumer's 2013 Senate bill S. 744.

They are not identical. That's a wingnut blogger talking point, and you ate it right up:
CHART: How Trump's Immigration Proposal Compares With Other Plans

Why do you put so much energy into spreading misinformation?

From you link, "Pelosi, responding to Trump’s remarks, tweeted: “When the ‘extremely stable genius’ starts acting more presidential, I’ll be happy to work with him on infrastructure, trade and other issues.”

In other words, Pelosi admits she is unwilling to work on trade and infrastructure at this time. The trade agreement has been ready for Congress to consider since Oct. 2018, but Pelosi now demands two weeks to learn what is in it, clearly hoping to run out the clock on the current legislative session without working on the trade agreement, a big improvement over NAFTA, because Trump would get credit for it.

There are no important differences between Trump's immigration reform plan as outlined in his 2018 State of the Union address and Chuck Schumer's 2013 Senate bill, S. 744. This means the Democrats do not disagree with the President on border security or immigration reform, and their present opposition is based not on what they believe is best for the country but what they believe is best for their chances for reelection.

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

Worse, it's a self-inflicted wound. No one is forcing us to behave this way. Ego and tribalism.

So you believe Republicans should unit with Dims to destroy the country?

Absolutely. I think destroying the country would be really cool 'n stuff.
.

You must if you believe we should unite with the people intent on doing it.

But your opinions are completely bat shit, irrational nonsense. You see the entire left as a socialism embracing boogeyman when in reality their fringe embrace social policies you don't like. You see the entire right as a paragon of morality and financial stewardship when they're pretty much the opposite of that these days. No one will bother to have any rational conversation with someone espousing these huge blind partisan leaps of logic.

 

[toomuchtime_]

not because of policy disagreements but only because of a desire to deny to America anything that might also benefit Trump.

Oh really? Is that why the republican senate rejects Trumps trade deals?

Senate rejects Trump's deal to save Chinese company ZTE

Is that why the Republican senate rejected trump's border emergency?

Senate votes to reject Trump's border emergency declaration

Is that why the republican senate rebuked trump on the saudi/yemen war?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...6a24a8-45c2-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

Is that why the republican senate rebuked trump on tariffs?

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/07/11/politics/senate-trump-tariff-vote/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/

Or, on russian sanctions?

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/15/politics/sanctions-senate-republicans-trump/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/&rm=1

It is why Pelosi refuses to consider the new trade agreements negotiated with Canada and Mexico, and why she refuses to consider infrastructure repair and development unless Trump rolls back his tax cuts and why she refuses the same immigration reforms Trump proposed which are identical to the immigration reforms the Democrats wanted in Schumer's 2013 Senate bill S. 744. There are no policy disagreements on these issues, but the Democrats refuse to deal with them because they are Trump initiatives and he would get some of the credit for the outcomes.

As I recall, the meetings between Pelosi and Trump seem to end with him storming out of the room. The president told reporters afterwards that he wouldn’t negotiate with Democrats on any policies as long as they continued investigations. Trump has absolutely no interest in passing any legislation before the election which is why he has not been willing to negotiate. He just wants put on a good show for his base which means being more contentious than the opposition.

Obama's proposed immigration reform addressed dreamers and Trump's did not. Obama strongly supported family based immigration. Trump introduced merit based immigration as a replacement. Obama supported improvements in border security focusing on technology. Trump plan for border security is his wall. The two proposals could not be further apart which is why Trump's plan will be DOA in the House.

In fact, the President left the room because Pelosi has been refusing to consider the new trade agreements with Canada and Mexico since Oct. 2018 and has insisted Trump roll back his 2017 tax cut before she commits to any deal on infrastructure. Pelosi is trying to run out the clock on the current legislative session because the new trade agreement Trump negotiated with Canada and Mexico is a big improvement over NAFTA and Trump will get credit for it. As for infrastructure, the Democrats are demanding Trump roll back his 2017 tax cuts to fund the cost on infrastructure repair because they understand this will harm him in the election, so clearly they had nothing constructive to offer in the meeting.

As for immigration, you are apparently ignorant of both The Democratic position and Trump's position. Compare Trump's plan as detailed in his 2018 State of the Union address and Chuck Schumer's 2013 Senate bill, S. 744, which was endorsed by Obama and Clinton and every Democrat in the Senate voted in favor of it, and you will see they are identical in all important respects except one: Schumer wanted to give permanent residence status to all 11,000,000 illegals in the US and Trump wanted to provide a path to citizenship to all the dreamers about 800,000 individuals, and another 1,000,000 illegals who were also in this country under special circumstances. Despite the fact that the Democrats had supported the same things Trump proposed in his SOTU address, the Democrats refused to respond to his proposal even to the extent of discussing it, indicating clearly that the dreamers were never anything more than a political prop to them.

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

Here is an idea...instead of just insulting most the world by inferring they have de-evolved - why not take a more positive approach and assume that people in general are not the problem but events/circumstances have simply brought more negative personalities to the fore.

I truly believe with instantaneous access to reliable and faulty information we as a species are de evolving. No one vets anything anymore. Every strong opinion these days seems to be rooted in more emotion than fact. So why would I assume people in general aren't the problem? Holding individuals accountable is seen as a 'negative' in our current society, so we bullshit ourselves so we don't have to feel 'bad' about our own stupid decisions. I don't know exactly how we remedy this, but more white washing of real issues that lead to our political division is a monumental waste of time. No thanks.