Defining conservative vs liberal in america today

[Chris]

For Republicans America is a platform for individual fulfillment. But here's the catch: the Individual is defined in the narrowest possible terms. Any notion of the "The Public Good" is seen as "Socialism" (socialism being anything the government does for the non-wealthy). The Free Market will fix New Orleans levees. The Free Market will effectively control the amount of derivative based risk Wall Street will take. The Free Market will get us off imported oil(rather than spending decades making terrorists stronger). The Free Market will keep our rivers clean. The Free Market will make healthcare more efficient. The Free Market won't bribe Washington in order to increase it's profit margin. We don't need to worry about "The Public Good", individual selfishness driven by short term profit is a utopian reflex.

But the world doesn't work that way. Selfishness harms society....tears it apart....destroys the world economy....spills millions of barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico.....tears a hole in the ozone...creates a garbage patch in the Pacific Ocean twice the size of Texas...melts the North Polar ice cap.....creates massive deficits by giving huge tax breaks to the wealthy....

But the Republicans celebrate this selfishness. It is their core value. For them greed is good.

 

[Listening]

For Republicans America is a platform for individual fulfillment.

Pure bull.

America is a platform that allows people to migrate to and link with those who feel the way they do and set up local government in a way the best suites their needs. Individual fullfillment is left wing pile of crap.

But here's the catch: the Individual is defined in the narrowest possible terms.

More bunk. The individual is often defined as part of a family (a traditional nuclear family) and a community (often extended family).

Any notion of the "The Public Good" is seen as "Socialism" (socialism being anything the government does for the non-wealthy).

Barf. The public good has never been defined. What it is a code word for taking resources from some and passing them on to others using arbitrary standards for determining who gets what (often being who will keep the bastard in who is propping up the recievers).

The Free Market will fix New Orleans levees.

The Free Market will determine if New Orleans should exist or not. The free market, in a very real sense, is the local government that says...we are going to need to raise your taxes to fix your leavies. If the government won't say it...the levies won't get fixed. That is the fault of the "Free Market" of the lack of backbone of pols to tell people what needs to be said ?

The Free Market will effectively control the amount of derivative based risk Wall Street will take.

The Free Market is about equilibrium and not rates....to bad you don't understand the difference.

The Free Market will get us off imported oil(rather than spending decades making terrorists stronger).

Excpet when the EPA is around.

The Free Market will keep our rivers clean.

It certainly has.

The Free Market will make healthcare more efficient.

To think we have anything close to a free market in health care is delusional. When the market gets out from under government...you can bet it will get more efficient. Medical Tourism has shown that.

The Free Market won't bribe Washington in order to increase it's profit margin.

The Free Market can't be blamed for the lack of integrity. You believe a regulated market won't bribe people ?

We don't need to worry about "The Public Good",

The government does not concern itself with the public good. It concerns itself with laws. Who decides what the public good is ? You. You're a traitor.

individual selfishness driven by short term profit is a utopian reflex.

Wrong again....conservatives have been shown to be more generous than you big hearted liberals. The fact that we like our liberty tends to have us outside of the government meeting peoples needs (and doing a much better job of it BTW.

But the world doesn't work that way. Selfishness harms society....tears it apart....destroys the world economy....spills millions of barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico.....tears a hole in the ozone...creates a garbage patch in the Pacific Ocean twice the size of Texas...melts the North Polar ice cap.....creates massive deficits by giving huge tax breaks to the wealthy....

A mix of lies and half truths, not to mention articles of faith that have never been established as being related to Republican ideas. Selfishness is not did not spill millions of barrels of oil into the gulf. A large bloated red tape laden beauracracy did. But it's nothing compared to our federal government. But they can run health care better.

But the Republicans celebrate this selfishness. It is their core value. For them greed is good.

Please show me where this is our platform. Your a self serving ignorant liar with no facts to back up your bowel movement.

 

[Foxfyre]

First this has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats.

Second, this does have everything to do with Liberalism vs Conservatism as those terms are understood and demonstrated in America now.

Third, it is not a matter of selfishness, but if it was, conservatives give more to charity from their personal assets, give more in volunteer time and talent, give more blood, and are far more likely to include private service and relief agencies in their social contract than are liberals

In my opinion liberals too often look to a strong central government to take property away from the people and redistribute it and then feel righteous. Whether the distributed funds are actually accomplishing what they are intended to do is secondary or unimporant

Conservatives see that method of doing charity the least efficient and effective and the worst stewardship of resources. They are more likely to see that as building an entitlement mentality that is corrupting and harmful to both those receiving the charity and those distributing it. To the Conservative, if the individual does not choose to give voluntarily, it is not charity.

 

[Clementine]

In thread after thread it seems that eventually somebody will throw out 'conservative' or 'liberal and/or progressive' as perjorative terms. The mud slinging that generally follows when that happens will invariably provide an incorrect definition of each.

Perhaps we can consider and discuss typical definitions from this that I received in my e-mail earlier. Would you agree or disagree with one or more or all of these statements?

TO WIT:

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

Okay that's it for the email. Others may come up with additional comparisons, but please, can we keep the trollisms and food fights to a mininum? We don't have to agree with each other's point of view, but we don't have to denigrate each other in order to say that.

I would agree with the definitions above. I think liberals have faith in government and believe people are basically fools who need bureaucrats to tell them what to do. Conservatives have faith in the individuals and want people to strive to elevate themselves. They believe we should make our own choices without government imposing their will on us.

 

[daveman]

foxfyre, have you been to Appalachia? Flint Michigan? Cleveland?

Restraint on business for the sake of the environment and the poor is absolutely a necessary government function. I'm having trouble making sense of what you have said in your last post.

Restraint on business for the sake of the poor?

How is eliminating jobs good for the poor?

Well, besides making more of them, that is...

 

[editec]

In the common use of those terms as done on board like these?

Ther terms are basically another way of saying MY TEAM or YOUR TEAM.

Most of the political/social/economic debates here come down to little more than dueling RHETORIC between two or more ignoramouses.

 

[Listening]

First this has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats.

Second, this does have everything to do with Liberalism vs Conservatism as those terms are understood and demonstrated in America now.

Third, it is not a matter of selfishness, but if it was, conservatives give more to charity from their personal assets, give more in volunteer time and talent, give more blood, and are far more likely to include private service and relief agencies in their social contract than are liberals

In my opinion liberals too often look to a strong central government to take property away from the people and redistribute it and then feel righteous. Whether the distributed funds are actually accomplishing what they are intended to do is secondary or unimporant

Conservatives see that method of doing charity the least efficient and effective and the worst stewardship of resources. They are more likely to see that as building an entitlement mentality that is corrupting and harmful to both those receiving the charity and those distributing it. To the Conservative, if the individual does not choose to give voluntarily, it is not charity.

I would highly recommend a book entitled "A conflict of visions" by Thomas Sowell.

He breaks things down according to what he calls the constrained and unconstrained vision.

It encompasses what you have stated, but goes much further.

He does not use the term conservative or liberal and he does not besmirch one side or the other. He simply points out the differences.

One place he says things are different is that the constrained vision is more likely to want incremental steps with an option to return to the previous way if an experiment does not work. While the unconstrained puts a lot of faith mans "reasoning". The constrained values history and it's lessons while the unconstrained wants to toss out history believing we can do it better next time and there is no need to let history encumber us with needless fear.

The constrained does not believe you can build large social systems. It also places a watchful eye on leaders.

The unconstrained believes in grand systems that will benefit everyone and believes it takes an "educated" class to run things for the rest of us.

Sowell quotes several folks for the past 200 years to develop the contrast. It isn't complete...in fact it leaves a lot of room for more research. But it is thought provoking.

 

[buckeye45_73]

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

BULLSHIT. It depends on the the activity.
how do you mean? it's very true, Liberals want to regulate your life, from warnings on cigarettes to controlling your thermostat due to global warming

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

BULLSHIT. American Liberals seek a more FAIR distribution of wealth. American Conservatives seek to let the free market distribute wealth, regardless of fairness or merit. They will tell you that the free market is wholly based on merit but they are wrong.

What is fair? Who determines fair? I love this

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

BULLSHIT. Anyone with a functioning brain and/or a beating heart would prefer to minimize anyone's dependence on either.
Uh you ducked it, the fact is liberals hate private charity (especially the religous kind) and want all chariy run by the government

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

I don't know what is meant by "social concerns"
Affirmative action ring a bell? busing? School vouchers?

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

BULLSHIT, but only because of the biased wording. Liberals prefer more progressive taxation, Conservatives prefer more regressive taxation.

explain this, progressive taxing is taxing the rich at a higher rate, is it not? so how is he wrong?

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

BULLSHIT. Liberals consider themselves both citizens of America and the world. Conservatives see themselves as ONLY citizens of America.
LOL, citizens of the world, there is no world government, yet. i'm an American, not and Earthling.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

BULLSHIT. Neither is big on specifics.
Conservative are very specific, liberals love vague ideas with lots of exceptions, like you cant say slut, UNLESS you're a comedian, hmmmmm. It should be one for all or all for none, no exceptions.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

WTF is "the social contract for all" supposed to mean?

liberals talk about the social contract all the time, yet you dont know what it is?

 

[Immanuel]

In thread after thread it seems that eventually somebody will throw out 'conservative' or 'liberal and/or progressive' as perjorative terms. The mud slinging that generally follows when that happens will invariably provide an incorrect definition of each.

Perhaps we can consider and discuss typical definitions from this that I received in my e-mail earlier. Would you agree or disagree with one or more or all of these statements?

TO WIT:

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

Okay that's it for the email. Others may come up with additional comparisons, but please, can we keep the trollisms and food fights to a mininum? We don't have to agree with each other's point of view, but we don't have to denigrate each other in order to say that.

Hold on a minute. I have not read anything beyond the OP, but why do you think you have the right to denigrate American Liberals in your OP and then you tell everyone else to play nice?

Immie

 

[naturegirl]

The problem with big government is the sheeple. Those that think government is the answer to do the right thing. What some don't realize is lots of wolves get invited in, they steal in dark rooms behind closed doors.

It's hard to guard the sheep when the wolves outnumber the sheep herders.

 

[zeke]

but why do you think you have the right to denigrate American Liberals in your OP and then you tell everyone else to play nice?

Just his way of proving a point I guess. Rethugs are assholes.

 

[Foxfyre]

In thread after thread it seems that eventually somebody will throw out 'conservative' or 'liberal and/or progressive' as perjorative terms. The mud slinging that generally follows when that happens will invariably provide an incorrect definition of each.

Perhaps we can consider and discuss typical definitions from this that I received in my e-mail earlier. Would you agree or disagree with one or more or all of these statements?

TO WIT:

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

Okay that's it for the email. Others may come up with additional comparisons, but please, can we keep the trollisms and food fights to a mininum? We don't have to agree with each other's point of view, but we don't have to denigrate each other in order to say that.

Hold on a minute. I have not read anything beyond the OP, but why do you think you have the right to denigrate American Liberals in your OP and then you tell everyone else to play nice?

Immie

Are you serious Immie? What do you see in the OP that denigrates liberals?

 

[regent]

The liberals of the1700's feared government, their concept of government was that it was used to take care of the king, the nobles and the Church and oppress the people. With this experience, liberals wanted as little government as possible and created a helpless govenment, the Articles. That didn't work so both liberals and conservatives created a considerably stronger government, with liberals still wary. In 1800 liberals became the government and some of their fear began to abate. With time, liberals began to see that government could also be used to take care of the people just as it had taken care of the king, the nobles and Church. More people were given the vote, more laws were passed protecting the people and America gradually changed.
When the Great Depression hit America, government suddently became essential to many for survival, and a bigger change occurred. Today liberals no longer fear government as they did in the 1700's and now see Government as a tool that can be used by the citizens for bettering their lives.
So how do conservatives see government?

 

[Immanuel]

In thread after thread it seems that eventually somebody will throw out 'conservative' or 'liberal and/or progressive' as perjorative terms. The mud slinging that generally follows when that happens will invariably provide an incorrect definition of each.

Perhaps we can consider and discuss typical definitions from this that I received in my e-mail earlier. Would you agree or disagree with one or more or all of these statements?

TO WIT:

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

Okay that's it for the email. Others may come up with additional comparisons, but please, can we keep the trollisms and food fights to a mininum? We don't have to agree with each other's point of view, but we don't have to denigrate each other in order to say that.

Hold on a minute. I have not read anything beyond the OP, but why do you think you have the right to denigrate American Liberals in your OP and then you tell everyone else to play nice?

Immie

Are you serious Immie? What do you see in the OP that denigrates liberals?

Basically everything you posted in regards to American Liberals is a slap in their face. Who on earth wants to be known as someone that supports theft in order to enrich themselves and the "poor"?

The comment about being more tolerant of others had to be written tongue in cheek because we both know that is not true.

Who on earth wants to admit they want to remove the personal liberties of others and enslave them to the government?

Then you call them Unpatriotic... Citizens of the World?

This was nothing more than a slap in the face of liberalism. Then you have the gall to tell everyone else to play nice? Shame on you!

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

In thread after thread it seems that eventually somebody will throw out 'conservative' or 'liberal and/or progressive' as perjorative terms. The mud slinging that generally follows when that happens will invariably provide an incorrect definition of each.

Perhaps we can consider and discuss typical definitions from this that I received in my e-mail earlier. Would you agree or disagree with one or more or all of these statements?

TO WIT:

American Liberals are more tolerant of and prefer more government control to regulate the activities and choices of the people.
American Conservatives are less tolerant of and prefer as little government control as reasonable to regulate the activities and choices of the people.

American Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
American Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

American Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
American Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

American Liberals look more to the Federal government to address social concerns of the citizens.
American Conservatives more to local government and individuals to address social concerns of the citizens

American Liberals believe in tax the rich to distribute to the poor.
American Conservatives believe in all citizens bearing an equal proportionate share of the burden.

American Liberals see themselves more as citizens of the world.
American Conservatives see themselves more as citizens of America.

American Liberals rarely define what they think in specific terms.
American Conservatives regularly specify what Conservatives think in specific terms.

American Liberals generally see it as the duty of the Federal government to establish the social contract for all.
American Conservatives generally want the Federal government to protect and defend the rights of the people and otherwise leave it up to the people to govern themselves and establish the society they wish to have.

Okay that's it for the email. Others may come up with additional comparisons, but please, can we keep the trollisms and food fights to a mininum? We don't have to agree with each other's point of view, but we don't have to denigrate each other in order to say that.

I would agree with the definitions above. I think liberals have faith in government and believe people are basically fools who need bureaucrats to tell them what to do. Conservatives have faith in the individuals and want people to strive to elevate themselves. They believe we should make our own choices without government imposing their will on us.

I don't think most liberals think people are fools. I do think they have been conditioned in a collective point of view that it is the duty of government to take what resources it needs in order to take care of eveybody. They see 'compassion' as overriding personal responsibility and choices people make and promote government intervention over promoting accountability. That does not make them bad people. In my opinion it just makes them shortsighted.

Conservatives reject the concept of a central government that 'takes care of us' as they see a government powerful enough to take whatever it wants from us as a government powerful enough to do anything it wants to us. It negates the concept of unalienable rights that made the USA the most free, most innovative, most productive, most prosperous, most generous nation that ever existed.

 

[Immanuel]

The liberals of the1700's feared government, their concept of government was that it was used to take care of the king, the nobles and the Church and oppress the people. With this experience, liberals wanted as little government as possible and created a helpless govenment, the Articles. That didn't work so both liberals and conservatives created a considerably stronger government, with liberals still wary. In 1800 liberals became the government and some of their fear began to abate. With time, liberals began to see that government could also be used to take care of the people just as it had taken care of the king, the nobles and Church. More people were given the vote, more laws were passed protecting the people and America gradually changed.
When the Great Depression hit America, government suddently became essential to many for survival, and a bigger change occurred. Today liberals no longer fear government as they did in the 1700's and now see Government as a tool that can be used by the citizens for bettering their lives.
So how do conservatives see government?

I pretty much agree with what you said here up until the last sentence.

In fact, the last sentence would have been correct if it had read like this:

Today liberals no longer fear government as they did in the 1700's and now see Government as a tool that can be used by the elite in order to enslave the common people.

Basically, they found out what our forefathers knew about the government and they adopted exactly what our forefathers fought so hard to suppress.

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

Hold on a minute. I have not read anything beyond the OP, but why do you think you have the right to denigrate American Liberals in your OP and then you tell everyone else to play nice?

Immie

Are you serious Immie? What do you see in the OP that denigrates liberals?

Basically everything you posted in regards to American Liberals is a slap in their face. Who on earth wants to be known as someone that supports theft in order to enrich themselves and the "poor"?

The comment about being more tolerant of others had to be written tongue in cheek because we both know that is not true.

Who on earth wants to admit they want to remove the personal liberties of others and enslave them to the government?

Then you call them Unpatriotic... Citizens of the World?

This was nothing more than a slap in the face of liberalism. Then you have the gall to tell everyone else to play nice? Shame on you!

Immie

Ah but you see, none of the interpretations and/or characterizations you seem to have concluded from those statements is what is actually said. There are competent arguments in favor of every statement that can make any one of them look noble and righteous. So who is being derogatory here. You or me?

 

[Immanuel]

Are you serious Immie? What do you see in the OP that denigrates liberals?

Basically everything you posted in regards to American Liberals is a slap in their face. Who on earth wants to be known as someone that supports theft in order to enrich themselves and the "poor"?

The comment about being more tolerant of others had to be written tongue in cheek because we both know that is not true.

Who on earth wants to admit they want to remove the personal liberties of others and enslave them to the government?

Then you call them Unpatriotic... Citizens of the World?

This was nothing more than a slap in the face of liberalism. Then you have the gall to tell everyone else to play nice? Shame on you!

Immie

Ah but you see, none of the interpretations and/or characterizations you seem to have concluded from those statements is what is actually said. There are competent arguments in favor of every statement that can make any one of them look noble and righteous. So who is being derogatory here. You or me?

Both!

But, I made no bones about it.

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

Basically everything you posted in regards to American Liberals is a slap in their face. Who on earth wants to be known as someone that supports theft in order to enrich themselves and the "poor"?

The comment about being more tolerant of others had to be written tongue in cheek because we both know that is not true.

Who on earth wants to admit they want to remove the personal liberties of others and enslave them to the government?

Then you call them Unpatriotic... Citizens of the World?

This was nothing more than a slap in the face of liberalism. Then you have the gall to tell everyone else to play nice? Shame on you!

Immie

Ah but you see, none of the interpretations and/or characterizations you seem to have concluded from those statements is what is actually said. There are competent arguments in favor of every statement that can make any one of them look noble and righteous. So who is being derogatory here. You or me?

Both!

But, I made no bones about it.

Immie

Well we are probably on the same page as to which point of view is the most defensible and that is why I identify myself as a modern American conservative.

Years of being on the debate team and then years as a volunteer debate coach and judge has trained me to fully see and analyze both sides of any concept or issue and be able to argue/defend both sides competently. But most conservatives, even without formal training, can do that if they are required to do so. Liberals, both on debate teams and on message boards, seem to have a much tougher time doing that.

And most of us, once we have learned how to see, analyze, and understand both sides of an argument, weighed against the honest results when concepts are implemented, will almost always choose the side of conservatism as the most persuasive. Which speaks well of the American people because, issue by issue, most are right of center on most.

 

[Listening]

Ah but you see, none of the interpretations and/or characterizations you seem to have concluded from those statements is what is actually said. There are competent arguments in favor of every statement that can make any one of them look noble and righteous. So who is being derogatory here. You or me?

Both!

But, I made no bones about it.

Immie

Well we are probably on the same page as to which point of view is the most defensible and that is why I identify myself as a modern American conservative.

Years of being on the debate team and then years as a volunteer debate coach and judge has trained me to fully see and analyze both sides of any concept or issue and be able to argue/defend both sides competently. But most conservatives, even without formal training, can do that if they are required to do so. Liberals, both on debate teams and on message boards, seem to have a much tougher time doing that.

And most of us, once we have learned how to see, analyze, and understand both sides of an argument, weighed against the honest results when concepts are implemented, will almost always choose the side of conservatism as the most persuasive. Which speaks well of the American people because, issue by issue, most are right of center on most.

I appreciate your approach.

I would suggest the book I mentioned earlier. It is a fascinating read (to me).

One thing that lacks in a lot of these arguments are basic economic or financial models. That is where some of the proof is. If you can agree on the inputs, you can pretty much agree on the results. It is the inputs that drive the debate.

Where this is significant is that liberals are going to consign our children to a lifetime of debt. The GOP has not helped this situation in the last 30 years and, in fact, has been complicet in it to a large degree at the federal level.

You can't spend what you don't have. The GOP says it, but they don't seem to behave that way.

That is why the Tea Party was formed.

This is about our kids.