Debate: Should we test for autism in the womb?

[Zoom-boing]

Pro choice anti choice is best.

BPeople can be anti abortion for themselves personally, but still be pro choice.

I consider myself pro choice AND pro life. Being pro choice is a way to protect human life.

Where does the choice of the unborn fit into all of this?

My only point is that as a parent, I would not have the means or the ability to cope with a severely autistic child like my friend's or, say, a child who lacked all motor abilities, and, especially, any child whose condition would require being removed to an institution. That kind of heartbreak would be too much for me to bear. If I had a 100% guarantee that the fetus I was bearing would end up in those conditions, I would abort.

You underestimate yourself. You'd be surprised how strong individuals can become when they need too.

I would also abort any fetus guaranteed, if such a test existed, that my future child would be suffer from acute, severe and incurable depression. I would not want to give birth to any child sentenced to life long suffering, mentally or otherwise. And I repeat, I do not believe that all disabilities necessarily go hand in hand with an inability to enjoy life. Studies have proven otherwise.

I'm not sure how I would feel about other, less severe disabilities. I don't think I would abort a future blind, deaf or Down's child, but I don't know. I've never been in that position. I would depend on what I felt were my abilities to care for the child, it's chances of having a full and happy life, and maybe also it's chances of being able to survive after I was gone. [

You make taking a life via abortion sound so casual . . . as if you were deciding between Italian or Chinese for dinner. Unbelievable.

I don't believe they are pro life. I think being pro life requires that quality of life be taken into consideration. Anti-choicers believe you have all these rights on conception but after birth you're on your own.

Should we just be honest and call them pro birthers"

I'm pro choice. No one is "pro abortion".

YOU are.

Your choice determines whether another human lives or dies. What choice does the unborn have? Oh that's right, they're not 'human' according to you pro-choice types.

 

[Anguille]

Where does the choice of the unborn fit into all of this?

If it were possible for them to make an inteeligent informed choice and if it werre possible for then to communicate it to us, it would still be overidden by the the person whose body they were inhabiting.

You underestimate yourself. You'd be surprised how strong individuals can become when they need too.

Since you don't know me or my circumstances in the least, your assertion is founded on nothing.

I am well aware of how resilient and resourceful people can be. The point why dedicate your life to something you don't feel is necessary or maybe even cruel. One can only do so much in life. We need to chose to use our time wisely.

You make taking a life via abortion sound so casual . . . as if you were deciding between Italian or Chinese for dinner. Unbelievable.

I don't see it as ca sual choice. I do think many anti choicers think forcing birth on the unwilling is a casual thing.

YOU are.

Your choice determines whether another human lives or dies. What choice does the unborn have? Oh that's right, they're not 'human' according to you pro-choice types.

That's right. IMO, fetuses are potential humans but not fully so. That is why abortion is not murder or manslaughter or killing.

 

[Gord]

Nothing mixed up about it. I don't think you have any business imposing your personal moral judgments on anyone else. That's ok though. I have no desire to impose mine on you.

Oh but you do. You are the one that wishes to impose a society on me where women can arbitrarily execute their children up to the point of birth (and in the case of your choice of president, even after they are born).

The difference is that *your* particular will keeps others from exercising theirs. Mine doesn't.

Of course it does - according to you the child does not the right to exercise their will.

You were the one who tried to use having been "repped" for your post as some validation of your beliefs.

No I was just using the reps to point out that you were wrong as usual.

So I think perhaps might be you who's confused. But that's ok. I'm used to it from the far right extremists.

Nice try, but I am not confused about who it is that is so selfish that sacrificing another's life is acceptable to satisfy that selfishness. It is liberals like you who are confused when think you are the ones that stand up for human rights. Human rights includes all humans. Not the just the ones you don't think of as inconvenient.

 

[Ravi]

Sigh. Yet another lying wingnut. Are all you rightwingers actually mentally handicapped?

I'll never figure it out.

 

[jillian]

Sigh. Yet another lying wingnut. Are all you rightwingers actually mentally handicapped?

I'll never figure it out.

And then they get offended by a cartoon that depicts their demands accurately.

I still remain flummoxed that these people feel they have the wisdom to make moral decisions for others.

I figure they should govern their own lives first.

 

[Anguille]

Sigh. Yet another lying wingnut. Are all you rightwingers actually mentally handicapped?

I'll never figure it out.

I wonder if it's something the water.

 

[Gord]

Sigh. Yet another lying wingnut. Are all you rightwingers actually mentally handicapped?

I'll never figure it out.

And then they get offended by a cartoon that depicts their demands accurately.

I still remain flummoxed that these people feel they have the wisdom to make moral decisions for others.

I figure they should govern their own lives first.

I wonder if it's something the water.

Three liberals without a substantive thought between them - just derision. I think I am beginning to understand how you feel about unwanted children as well...

 

[Cecilie1200]

Now maybe autism:



Unbelievable.

What is next, tests for blindness, deafness, whatever disability your child may have? Abort it if it's not going to turn out perfect?

When will they discover a test to see if you have a serial killer in the womb I wonder?

They already test for any number of defects in the womb, and most women do abort their babies if they test positive. In my fifth month of pregnancy, I had an amniocentesis that tested for Down's Syndrome, more genetic defects than I could possibly name, spina bifida, and cystic fibrosis. Tests for these things are common among pregnant women at high risk for such things, like women over 35.

For the record, though, I was testing for them so that I could be prepared to take care of a special needs baby if I was having one, not because I intended to abort.

 

[Anguille]

Three liberals without a substantive thought between them - just derision. I think I am beginning to understand how you feel about unwanted children as well...

Do you understand how I feel about unwanted gourds?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Giving the fact that most doctors will not do an amniocentesis until you are more then seven months also and with most states not allowing partial birth abortions there is really no risk of them aborting the child. You also take a test early one already to see if there is the chance your child MIGHT have a genetic defect which even if it is postive it doesn't alway mean your child will have any problems. Also usually the only way a doctor will do an amniocentesis is if something like that test is postive or there are other risks such as to see how their lungs are developing.

What are you talking about, seven months? Amniocentesis is typically done in the fourth month or so, around the same time that the first sonogram is done. Amniocentesis became such a popular test among older women precisely BECAUSE of their desire to abort babies with genetic defects, so there's no point in doing one - in most people's eyes - if you can't abort anyway.

As for that other test, it is NOT an early precursor to amnio. It's a non-invasive alternative to amnio for women who don't want an amnio, and done at approximately the same time. It's not as accurate, but doesn't involve sticking a needle through your abdominal wall. And no, the doctor will do an amnio if you request it and can pay for it, but it usually only comes up if you are having a high-risk pregnancy for some reason. SOME sort of genetic testing is routine for any pregnant woman over the age of 35.

You are seriously out of touch with modern obstetrics.

 

[Cecilie1200]

As someone who is currently going through this, I can tell you that the test they give out "early on" (usually in the early 2nd trimester, 16-18 weeks) - called a TriScreen or a QuadScreen is done specifically to give you "odds" on whether or not your child could be born with a neural tube defect such as Down's Syndrome or Spina Bifida. When the tests are given, my doctor - who is personally against terminating pregnancies for those reasons - said without hesitation that this test is done to give parents piece of mind or to let parents begin to prepare for what might be coming OR to give them the option to terminate the pregnancy if they choose.

Although you are absolutely right, the tests do not say, "Yes, it is 100% certain that your child will be born with Down's Syndrome," and although the tests frequently give a false number of "high chance" percentages....the DRASTIC decrease in the number of children born with Down's Syndrome since the testing began speaks clearly to the fact that there are many people out there who are using the earlier testing to decide whether or not to abort and try again for their "perfect baby" than "take the chance" of have a child who might have a developmental disability.

I don't think we should "stop" scientific advancements in prenatal testing. If there is a test for Autism, it would be a great way for parents who are going to keep a child regardless to begin to prepare themselves for what might come. But it seems obvious from the current testing...that many, many parents are using current testing to decide whether or not to keep an "inperfect" child...and I have no doubt that this would become just another reason to terminate a pregnancy.

I suppose in the future, this won't be a problem - we will be able to choose the perfect egg, the perfect sperm in a lab...free of any defects or deficiencies of any kind. It will still be your baby, the doctors will tell you...just the most perfect baby the two of you could ever create...

And I wonder what the world will look like when everyone is "perfect."

You're doing the pregnancy thing too? My doctor just scheduled me to be induced on Monday. I'm so excited! Of course, at this point, I'd be excited and eager to give birth if the kid was squeezing out through my left nostril. I'm SO TIRED of being pregnant.

I think it's a wonderful thing to be able to test for diseases and defects early on, particularly if the research also leads to new discoveries in treating those conditions. There's nothing wrong with wanting information about your baby's health ahead of time so you can prepare. I just think it's sad that anyone would decide that a baby is like a fallen souffle that you throw in the trash and redo to get it "perfect".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Amnios are done between the 15th and 18th week of pregnancy. Last time I checked that was between 3 and 4 months. Though I seem to recall mine being done at about 9 or 12 weeks. It's been about 12 years, so I don't really remember. And any state that cuts off the right of termination prior to the time at which an amnio is done is effectively making the results moot.

Pregnancy: Amniocentesis

Mine was in my 21st week, but that's only because no one realized I was as far along in my pregnancy as I was. We all thought I had gotten pregnant four weeks later than that. It wasn't until we saw the sonogram that we realized I was so advanced. Boy, did I have to sit down with my calendar and do some refiguring.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Our first house was a split level, with the laundry room downstairs. Boy was that a mistake. Everytime I went down to do laundry, one or both my kids would get into trouble. The oldest decided he was going to magic marker everysingle part of his body, and I do mean every part. Thank goodness they were washable markers.

My youngest, well, I got this stupid idea to buy velcro fasten real diapers. He was finger painting and that was a heck of a thing to clean up. After I finished cleaning up those messes I sat down to call my friend to vent. Wonderful friend that she is said "And you know what's going to happen when your husband comes home? He's going to say "What did you do all day?"

Mine used to disassemble electronic devices to see how they worked. We found my first cellphone disemboweled in the bottom of his bedroom closet, with all these weird Blair Witch symbols painted on the wall in nail polish. We thought perhaps he was sacrificing it to some dark god, but didn't want to ask.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't believe they are pro life. I think being pro life requires that quality of life be taken into consideration. Anti-choicers believe you have all these rights on conception but after birth you're on your own.

Should we just be honest and call them pro birthers"

I'm pro choice. No one is "pro abortion".

Horseshit, no one is pro-abortion. As for "quality of life", some people have learned that quality isn't determined by your circumstances, but by how you handle them. Other people seem to think it's not worth living unless there are cartoon animals dancing around you, whistling "Zippadee Doo Dah" out their assholes at you 24/7.

 

[jillian]

Horseshit, no one is pro-abortion. As for "quality of life", some people have learned that quality isn't determined by your circumstances, but by how you handle them. Other people seem to think it's not worth living unless there are cartoon animals dancing around you, whistling "Zippadee Doo Dah" out their assholes at you 24/7.

Are you retarded? Seriously....

like i said... govern your own life.

damn, we're surrounded by supercilious twits.

you can't even make intelligent judgments for yourself but think you're so superior you can make them for others?

and no, genius...no one is pro abortion. we just want people like you to GOVERN YOUR OWN LIVES.

 

[Anguille]

Mine used to disassemble electronic devices to see how they worked. We found my first cellphone disemboweled in the bottom of his bedroom closet, with all these weird Blair Witch symbols painted on the wall in nail polish. We thought perhaps he was sacrificing it to some dark god, but didn't want to ask.

I can understand why a child of yours might turn to Satanism.

 

[KittenKoder]

So...patience, love, tolerance, and acceptance...so long as they're "normal"? If not, discard them and try again?

Many birth defects are slow painful deaths for the children anyway, autism I don't think is a good reason, but others would relieve the poor soul of having to live a short (very short) and painful life. I took care of some of these children when I was younger, most were dead a year later, some lasted a few more years, but all were always suffering. So, do you support torturing innocent children or are you willing to make an exception if there is a good one?

 

[Anguille]

Here is a related question. What if there was a pre natal test which could say with 100% accuracy that a fetus would eventually become an adult rapist and/or murderer? What would be the reasons, if any, for not aborting in the case of a positive for that test?

 

[KittenKoder]

Here is a related question. What if there was a pre natal test which could say with 100% accuracy that a fetus would eventually become an adult rapist and/or murderer? What would be the reasons, if any, for not aborting in the case of a positive for that test?

In such a case, all living things can be reconditioned to break from their natural desires, and should they have ones that harm others, knowing when they are born would actually allow them to begin the reconditioning to avoid such acts more successfully.

 

[mightypeon]

On moral grounds I am opposed, I do see people with autism as "different" not "inferior".
If we "ban" autism, we have good odds in ending with a society that will define what is normal and "abort" everthing else. Will every child be blond and blue eyed or something?
Do any of you know the movie Gattaca? It is about a future where most children are genetically planned (to have low odds for cancer etc.), and the ones who arent are heavily discriminated against. The main actor is an "unplanned" person that assumes a fake identity to reach his goals.

On a sidenote, heavy selection against "mutations" will lower the overall evolutionary fitness of mankind, however I doubt that politics ever consider effects that will resurface in 10s of thousands of years.