Debate: Should we test for autism in the womb?

[Anguille]

What a terrible mother you would be - you think having a child is like choosing a pair of shoes. Do you think you would treat the children you select not to abort any different than the aborted ones? No. You would treat your born children the same way you would your aborted children - if they did not live up to your expectations you would reject them.

I read your post 3 thimes and still can't tell what the hell you are saying.

 

[Anguille]

It's as much my business as it is for anyone. I am neither disqualified because I disagree with you or because I am a male.

Oh but I forgot, you are the great discriminator. You know whats best for other people - even those not born yet...

The words "people not born yet" are mutually exclusive.

 

[Gord]

To be fair, my husband an I discussed birth defects before our kids were born and had decided that if they did have birth defects, we would have aborted. Now I'm glad there was no way to know while my kids were in the womb. In fact, my kids were both normal until 2 or older. I had those wonderful 2 years with my kids and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Plus, all the years since have had their good and bad points, just like any other kids. Imagine a non-verbal kid waking up in the morning, seeing a cake, singing the birthday song all the way through, and then cutting himself a piece of cake. I wouldn't have given up that moment for anything.

My oldest is asperger's syndrome and while our public schools were very hard on him, now, at 24, he's in college and getting A's. Suddenly, he has faith in himself again. I wouldn't trade that for anything either.

I am glad you are happy with your decision. I have a step son with Cerebral Palsy and he is one of the most inspiring people I have ever met. And most people who have met him would agree with that. He lives a full life despite his severe handicaps and the world would be a much poorer place without him.

But even if he was plain jane I would appreciate and love him and would never wish he had never been allowed to live.

 

[Luissa]

Autism can be detected in womb-Health-Health & Science-The Times of India

Close on the heels of a cancer-proof baby being born in UK, screened in the womb to exclude a cancer-causing gene, a new research raises possibility of prenatal screening for autism by potentially identifying the condition in unborn babies. Scientists at Cambridge University discovered that high levels of testosterone in the amniotic fluid of pregnant mothers was linked to autistic traits in their children, the Telegraph reported on its website on Monday. The findings raise the possibility of undertaking tests in the womb to detect the condition, which would allow parents the controversial ability to decide whether to terminate fetuses. Experts are now calling for a debate on the consequences of the screening process, called amniocentesis, which is already used to detect Down’s syndrome in unborn babies. “If there was a prenatal test for autism, would this be desirable? What would we lose if children with autistic spectrum disorder were eliminated from the population?” professor Simon Baron-Cohen, director of the research team, was quoted by the Guardian as saying. “We should start debating this. There is a test for Down’s syndrome and that is legal and parents exercise their right to choose termination, but autism if often linked with talent. It is a different kind of condition.” Experts from the university’s autism research centre discovered the testosterone link after studying 235 children from birth to the age of eight. They found that when high levels of the hormone were found, children showed autistic traits such as a lack of sociability and verbal skills by the time they were eight.

Flip side: We might lose geniuses in the process. People with autism include those with extraordinary abilities in mathematics and music. And as researchers report that they might be able to detect autism in the womb, the debate about whether this would be ethical is intensifying. Autistic kids have an extraordinary grasp of facts, but they have no concept of analysis or interpretation. With this incapacity comes social isolation, an inability to form lasting relationship, reports Times Online. The thousands of autistic children are at the centre of an ethical debate with far-reaching consequences. Within a few years it may become possible for expectant mothers to have prenatal tests to determine if their child is likely to be autistic.
Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, director of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge, says that autistic males often turn out to be skilled at mathematics and engineering — some reaching near-genius level. He says that Newton and Einstein were almost certainly autistic, finding relationships difficult. Artists, too, have suffered from autism or Asperger’s — including the blind pianist Derek Paravicini and, reportedly, the film director Steven Spielberg. So if we found a test for autism, and gave parents the opportunity of aborting the fetus, we might eliminate not just a difficult child but a potential genius.

Giving the fact that most doctors will not do an amniocentesis until you are more then seven months also and with most states not allowing partial birth abortions there is really no risk of them aborting the child. You also take a test early one already to see if there is the chance your child MIGHT have a genetic defect which even if it is postive it doesn't alway mean your child will have any problems. Also usually the only way a doctor will do an amniocentesis is if something like that test is postive or there are other risks such as to see how their lungs are developing.

 

[Gord]

I read your post 3 thimes and still can't tell what the hell you are saying.

Well I suspected you weren't very bright...

 

[Gord]

The words "people not born yet" are mutually exclusive.

Wrong color of shoes, huh?

(Crap - that'll probably go right over her head too.)

 

[Anguille]

Wrong color of shoes, huh?

(Crap - that'll probably go right over her head too.)

If there was a way of testing in the womb for the possibility of developing pro choice opinions, would you choose to abort?

I think you would.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

No, but we should have a standard basic comprehension test that one must pass in order to vote.

Far more productive, don't you think?

Tests for voting are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. They are subjective and infringe on the RIGHT one has to vote. You can NOT make a test that does not infringe that right. You can not make a test that would not be subjective, nor could you keep politics and racism out of it.

Supreme Court has already determined that tests for the right to vote are Unconstitutional. You do remember the Civil Rights movement, right?

 

[strollingbones]

I personally would not want to have a severely autistic child nor a child with many other disabilities others might be fine with. I would be glad of any tests that would signal things like that so I could abort and try again.

you do realize shit happens after birth too?

 

[jillian]

I'll agree to selective abortions when we can determine whether the baby agrees to be aborted or left in a soiled linen closet to die of exposure and neglect...

or

I'll agree to selective abortions when the baby selected to be aborted can then select their parent to be left in a soiled linen closet to die of exposure and neglect...

or

I'll agree to selective abortions when we can detect in the womb those who will later become disposed toward choosing their children based on selective abortions so they can first be selected out to be left in a soiled linen closet to die of exposure and neglect...

Luckily, no one cares what you "agree" to since it's a moral choice that has to be made by another person.

Now let's try to get back to an intelligent discussion about autism, because that's actually interesting.

I think the test in question is an unknown. It really tells nothing. Tests on which termination of a pregnancy are based, eg, amniocenthesis, don't measure "possible" or "likely" illnesses. You know if your child has a trisomy 21. There really isn't any question.

Autism exists on a continuun as pointed out by a few people on this thread. Apsbergers can be low level with the child being high functioning. There are people who think Bill Gates has Apsbergers, actually.

But if you knew your child was NEVER going to function, well that's another issue for another day.

 

[Dis]

Tests for voting are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. They are subjective and infringe on the RIGHT one has to vote. You can NOT make a test that does not infringe that right. You can not make a test that would not be subjective, nor could you keep politics and racism out of it.

Supreme Court has already determined that tests for the right to vote are Unconstitutional. You do remember the Civil Rights movement, right?

Dude. STFU and leard to not take everything so damned seriously.

You're a fucking nut. If someone wants to vote for Obama because he has a blue watch, far be it from me to indicate they should at least know what's going on in the world before casting a vote.

 

[dilloduck]

Geniuses!! I've known a few geniuses. They aren't all, they're cracked up to be. Pains in the asses, some of them.

I am NOT !

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Dude. STFU and leard to not take everything so damned seriously.

You're a fucking nut. If someone wants to vote for Obama because he has a blue watch, far be it from me to indicate they should at least know what's going on in the world before casting a vote.

Learn to not demand things that are illegal and retarded to boot.

 

[Dis]

Learn to not demand things that are illegal and retarded to boot.

I'm thinking there also ought to be a basic personality skills test one must past before being allowed to purchase a computer.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm thinking there also ought to be a basic personality skills test one must past before being allowed to purchase a computer.

Hell---I thought people bought computers to create their own personalities.

 

[Gem]

Giving the fact that most doctors will not do an amniocentesis until you are more then seven months also and with most states not allowing partial birth abortions there is really no risk of them aborting the child. You also take a test early one already to see if there is the chance your child MIGHT have a genetic defect which even if it is postive it doesn't alway mean your child will have any problems. Also usually the only way a doctor will do an amniocentesis is if something like that test is postive or there are other risks such as to see how their lungs are developing.

As someone who is currently going through this, I can tell you that the test they give out "early on" (usually in the early 2nd trimester, 16-18 weeks) - called a TriScreen or a QuadScreen is done specifically to give you "odds" on whether or not your child could be born with a neural tube defect such as Down's Syndrome or Spina Bifida. When the tests are given, my doctor - who is personally against terminating pregnancies for those reasons - said without hesitation that this test is done to give parents piece of mind or to let parents begin to prepare for what might be coming OR to give them the option to terminate the pregnancy if they choose.

Although you are absolutely right, the tests do not say, "Yes, it is 100% certain that your child will be born with Down's Syndrome," and although the tests frequently give a false number of "high chance" percentages....the DRASTIC decrease in the number of children born with Down's Syndrome since the testing began speaks clearly to the fact that there are many people out there who are using the earlier testing to decide whether or not to abort and try again for their "perfect baby" than "take the chance" of have a child who might have a developmental disability.

I don't think we should "stop" scientific advancements in prenatal testing. If there is a test for Autism, it would be a great way for parents who are going to keep a child regardless to begin to prepare themselves for what might come. But it seems obvious from the current testing...that many, many parents are using current testing to decide whether or not to keep an "inperfect" child...and I have no doubt that this would become just another reason to terminate a pregnancy.

I suppose in the future, this won't be a problem - we will be able to choose the perfect egg, the perfect sperm in a lab...free of any defects or deficiencies of any kind. It will still be your baby, the doctors will tell you...just the most perfect baby the two of you could ever create...

And I wonder what the world will look like when everyone is "perfect."

 

[editec]

It's up to the mother.

It is none of the public's business.

 

[Luissa]

As someone who is currently going through this, I can tell you that the test they give out "early on" (usually in the early 2nd trimester, 16-18 weeks) - called a TriScreen or a QuadScreen is done specifically to give you "odds" on whether or not your child could be born with a neural tube defect such as Down's Syndrome or Spina Bifida. When the tests are given, my doctor - who is personally against terminating pregnancies for those reasons - said without hesitation that this test is done to give parents piece of mind or to let parents begin to prepare for what might be coming OR to give them the option to terminate the pregnancy if they choose.

Although you are absolutely right, the tests do not say, "Yes, it is 100% certain that your child will be born with Down's Syndrome," and although the tests frequently give a false number of "high chance" percentages....the DRASTIC decrease in the number of children born with Down's Syndrome since the testing began speaks clearly to the fact that there are many people out there who are using the earlier testing to decide whether or not to abort and try again for their "perfect baby" than "take the chance" of have a child who might have a developmental disability.

I don't think we should "stop" scientific advancements in prenatal testing. If there is a test for Autism, it would be a great way for parents who are going to keep a child regardless to begin to prepare themselves for what might come. But it seems obvious from the current testing...that many, many parents are using current testing to decide whether or not to keep an "inperfect" child...and I have no doubt that this would become just another reason to terminate a pregnancy.

I suppose in the future, this won't be a problem - we will be able to choose the perfect egg, the perfect sperm in a lab...free of any defects or deficiencies of any kind. It will still be your baby, the doctors will tell you...just the most perfect baby the two of you could ever create...

And I wonder what the world will look like when everyone is "perfect."

I said early on because I couldn't remember exactly when I had my test! And in my state you can only have an abortion until you are in the 12th week or the end of your first tri mester so the whole abortion thing is still not an issue since it is also that way in many states. And as for testing autism in the article it said it tests amniotic fluid which like I said before most doctors will not do until you are at least seven months along due to the chance of miscarriage so really the whole abortion issue is not really an issue in this case.

And on another hope everything is going good with your pregnancy, sometimes I actually miss being pregnant which is so wierd since when you are pregnant all you want is to be over and have your baby.

 

[Luissa]

you do realize shit happens after birth too?

yeah they turn two and then four! And they start whinning!
Sorry I am tired because my little man who I love more then anything decided today he would get up about two hours earlier then normal. Don't they know at 545 am is not the best time to want to play?

 

[manifold]

Another excuse to murder the unborn.

I know right?

The irony of course being that a valid excuse isn't even necessary.