Death Panels..Canadian Style

[Lumpy 1]

Luissa annoyed,...who knew...

 

[Newby]

He is practically dead. He cannot be saved. Keeping him alive drains the healthcare system - the taxpayers. If they want to keep him alive, pay for his treatment. If not, pull the plug.

Exactly. Canada has nationalized medical care. The government, the taxpayer, is paying for this man's treatment. To keep him alive when there is no hope of recovery drains money out of the health care system. The family's desire to keep him on life support is an emotional decision; the doctor's decision to take him off life support is a logical, practical decision. Also, as has been noted, this is the same in the US, essentially. If a family insists on keeping someone with no chance of recovery on life support, the hospital can take the case to court and have the court decide. Unless a family is paying for all the expenses, they should not have the right to prolong life when there is no chance of recovery and force the taxpayer to foot the bill for their emotional decision and inability to let the patient die a natural death.

Cool explanation. Let's try it this way.

US has welfare laws. The government, the taxpayer, is paying for their existence. To keep paying them, when there is no hope they will ever try to live on their own drains money from the welfare system... figure out the rest on your own.

End of discussion... great post!

 

[Newby]

US has welfare laws. The government, the taxpayer, is paying for their existence. To keep paying them, when there is no hope they will ever try to live on their own drains money from the welfare system... figure out the rest on your own.

How do you know they won't get a job, or are you just assuming?

How do you know a patient isn't going to get better, or are you just assuming?

 

[Ame®icano]

Just sayin..

Wait times for medical treatment getting longer: Fraser Institute report | CTV News

The Fraser Institute is a radical right wing think tank that has as part of its agenda, the destruction of the Canada Health Act and the introduction of US style health care in Canada.

I have yet to read a single "study" they've put out that is statistically reliable. This is the Ontario Government website wait time page:

Wait Times - Ministry Programs - Public Information - MOHLTC

This is the reliable information.

Just wondering, what makes the "Fraser Institute" so radical right wing.

I get that you wholeheartedly trust your government for reliability, integrity and fairness, that's not the case in the United States.

Anyone who doesn't agree with them will be labeled as radical. At the same time they call themselves reasonable and moderate... no shit, pure angels.

 

[Lumpy 1]

The Fraser Institute is a radical right wing think tank that has as part of its agenda, the destruction of the Canada Health Act and the introduction of US style health care in Canada.

I have yet to read a single "study" they've put out that is statistically reliable. This is the Ontario Government website wait time page:

Wait Times - Ministry Programs - Public Information - MOHLTC

This is the reliable information.

Just wondering, what makes the "Fraser Institute" so radical right wing.

I get that you wholeheartedly trust your government for reliability, integrity and fairness, that's not the case in the United States.

Anyone who doesn't agree with them will be labeled as radical. At the same time they call themselves reasonable and moderate... no shit, pure angels.

I guess it's something like Democrats actually hating Tea Party Members for believing in the Constitution, a reasonable budget and that government is too controlling and isn't the answer.

 

[Ame®icano]

Just wondering, what makes the "Fraser Institute" so radical right wing.

I get that you wholeheartedly trust your government for reliability, integrity and fairness, that's not the case in the United States.

Anyone who doesn't agree with them will be labeled as radical. At the same time they call themselves reasonable and moderate... no shit, pure angels.

I guess it's something like Democrats actually hating Tea Party Members for believing in the Constitution, a reasonable budget and that government is too controlling and isn't the answer.

TP is hated by establishment GOP too that is nowdays much closer to the Democrats then to the TP. Only reason they claim to be on the right is because they are bit less left then Democrats themselves.

 

[Dragonlady]

So you think that doctors and hospitals in the US aren't giving false hope to families of comatose patients just to continue to collect fat fees for keeping their loved ones alive. Doctors are recommending expensive tests patients don't need from labs the doctors own just because there's a payment due on the doctor's Mercedes?

When you have a for profit medical system, it's easy for doctors to abuse the system to pad their incomes.

 

[Steven_R]

How much of that is unnecessary padding and how much is because of the way malpractice suits are abused? How many tests are just redundant, but the doc orders it anyways because if he doesn't he'll get sued?

 

[tinydancer]

So you think that doctors and hospitals in the US aren't giving false hope to families of comatose patients just to continue to collect fat fees for keeping their loved ones alive. Doctors are recommending expensive tests patients don't need from labs the doctors own just because there's a payment due on the doctor's Mercedes?

When you have a for profit medical system, it's easy for doctors to abuse the system to pad their incomes.

Socialized medicine has bad actors as well. In Britain the NHS has been ordered to stop giving bonuses for killing patients errrrrrrrrr putting them on the Liverpool Pathway.

Imagine that. Bonuses for freeing up bed space in such a novel way.

 

[The T]

So you think that doctors and hospitals in the US aren't giving false hope to families of comatose patients just to continue to collect fat fees for keeping their loved ones alive. Doctors are recommending expensive tests patients don't need from labs the doctors own just because there's a payment due on the doctor's Mercedes?

When you have a for profit medical system, it's easy for doctors to abuse the system to pad their incomes.

Socialized medicine has bad actors as well. In Britain the NHS has been ordered to stop giving bonuses for killing patients errrrrrrrrr putting them on the Liverpool Pathway.

Imagine that. Bonuses for freeing up bed space in such a novel way.

Pretty much what IPAB is in Obamacare?

 

[tinydancer]

Just so you know I'm not bullshitting. Imagine real death panels with government incentives to "off" patients.

Truth. Promoting and meeting targets. Isn't this lovely? And please pay particular attention to the fact that only 57% of patients families were informed that their loved one was being put on the "pathway".

The source is BBC. I wanted that for any mamby pamby libs on the board who couldn't bear to read anything by the Daily Mail.

Bonus payments

About 55,000 people die in the East each year. Half die in hospital, usually with a chronic illness such as heart disease, cancer or stroke.

The BBC sent Freedom of Information requests to 20 NHS trusts requesting details about their use of LCP.

Only half provided the information, with some saying that they did not collate figures.

The investigation found that Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, is in line for a £1m bonus from the Government for promoting end-of-life care, including the LCP.

The money is paid if the hospital meets targets in training nurses in palliative care in the eight wards where there are the the most deaths, and in identifying terminally ill patients.

The trust said it did not keep figures on the use of LCP.

However, a national dying audit, which was a snapshot of deaths, found that only 57% of patients had their care plan discussed with relatives or carers.

Since then, the hospital has taken on an end-of-life care "facilitator" to ensure that conversations with patients and relatives take place.



BBC News - Liverpool Care Pathway: More than 10,000 patients placed on plan

 

[The T]

Just so you know I'm not bullshitting. Imagine real death panels with government incentives to "off" patients.

Truth. Promoting and meeting targets. Isn't this lovely? And please pay particular attention to the fact that only 57% of patients families were informed that their loved one was being put on the "pathway".

The source is BBC. I wanted that for any mamby pamby libs on the board who couldn't bear to read anything by the Daily Mail.

Bonus payments

About 55,000 people die in the East each year. Half die in hospital, usually with a chronic illness such as heart disease, cancer or stroke.

The BBC sent Freedom of Information requests to 20 NHS trusts requesting details about their use of LCP.

Only half provided the information, with some saying that they did not collate figures.

The investigation found that Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, is in line for a £1m bonus from the Government for promoting end-of-life care, including the LCP.

The treatment plan aims to allow patients to die with as much dignity and in as little distress as possible.

The money is paid if the hospital meets targets in training nurses in palliative care in the eight wards where there are the the most deaths, and in identifying terminally ill patients.

The trust said it did not keep figures on the use of LCP.

However, a national dying audit, which was a snapshot of deaths, found that only 57% of patients had their care plan discussed with relatives or carers.

Since then, the hospital has taken on an end-of-life care "facilitator" to ensure that conversations with patients and relatives take place.



BBC News - Liverpool Care Pathway: More than 10,000 patients placed on plan

Never doubted it. I've heard about it. Thanks for the link.

 

[tinydancer]

Just so you know I'm not bullshitting. Imagine real death panels with government incentives to "off" patients.

Truth. Promoting and meeting targets. Isn't this lovely? And please pay particular attention to the fact that only 57% of patients families were informed that their loved one was being put on the "pathway".

The source is BBC. I wanted that for any mamby pamby libs on the board who couldn't bear to read anything by the Daily Mail.

Bonus payments

About 55,000 people die in the East each year. Half die in hospital, usually with a chronic illness such as heart disease, cancer or stroke.

The BBC sent Freedom of Information requests to 20 NHS trusts requesting details about their use of LCP.

Only half provided the information, with some saying that they did not collate figures.

The investigation found that Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, is in line for a £1m bonus from the Government for promoting end-of-life care, including the LCP.

The treatment plan aims to allow patients to die with as much dignity and in as little distress as possible.

The money is paid if the hospital meets targets in training nurses in palliative care in the eight wards where there are the the most deaths, and in identifying terminally ill patients.

The trust said it did not keep figures on the use of LCP.

However, a national dying audit, which was a snapshot of deaths, found that only 57% of patients had their care plan discussed with relatives or carers.

Since then, the hospital has taken on an end-of-life care "facilitator" to ensure that conversations with patients and relatives take place.



BBC News - Liverpool Care Pathway: More than 10,000 patients placed on plan

Never doubted it. I've heard about it. Thanks for the link.

The actual Liverpool Care Pathway Plan as originally intended is a truly sensitive and caring way for a doctor and a dying patient to work together on a humane "exit strategy" for the patient.

But then you get bean counters involved and bureaucrats involved and not only do you get a slippery slope for the health care system now it hits rock bottom and keeps on digging.

Government always fucks up. Pardon my french, but it's true.

 

[The T]

Just so you know I'm not bullshitting. Imagine real death panels with government incentives to "off" patients.

Truth. Promoting and meeting targets. Isn't this lovely? And please pay particular attention to the fact that only 57% of patients families were informed that their loved one was being put on the "pathway".

The source is BBC. I wanted that for any mamby pamby libs on the board who couldn't bear to read anything by the Daily Mail.

Bonus payments

About 55,000 people die in the East each year. Half die in hospital, usually with a chronic illness such as heart disease, cancer or stroke.

The BBC sent Freedom of Information requests to 20 NHS trusts requesting details about their use of LCP.

Only half provided the information, with some saying that they did not collate figures.

The investigation found that Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, is in line for a £1m bonus from the Government for promoting end-of-life care, including the LCP.

The treatment plan aims to allow patients to die with as much dignity and in as little distress as possible.

The money is paid if the hospital meets targets in training nurses in palliative care in the eight wards where there are the the most deaths, and in identifying terminally ill patients.

The trust said it did not keep figures on the use of LCP.

However, a national dying audit, which was a snapshot of deaths, found that only 57% of patients had their care plan discussed with relatives or carers.

Since then, the hospital has taken on an end-of-life care "facilitator" to ensure that conversations with patients and relatives take place.



BBC News - Liverpool Care Pathway: More than 10,000 patients placed on plan

Never doubted it. I've heard about it. Thanks for the link.

The actual Liverpool Pathway Plan as originally intended is a truly sensitive and caring way for a doctor and a dying patient to work together on a humane "exit strategy" for the patient.

But then you get bean counters involved and bureaucrats involved and not only do you get a slippery slope for the health care system now it hits rock bottom and keeps on digging.

Government always fucks up. Pardon my french, but it's true.

And precisely why politicians need to stay out of the way of how people conduct their personal matters. But the whole point is ultimate control by the same politicians, isn't it? And this is what ObamaCare means to accomplish as well. People had better wake up.

 

[tinydancer]

Never doubted it. I've heard about it. Thanks for the link.

The actual Liverpool Pathway Plan as originally intended is a truly sensitive and caring way for a doctor and a dying patient to work together on a humane "exit strategy" for the patient.

But then you get bean counters involved and bureaucrats involved and not only do you get a slippery slope for the health care system now it hits rock bottom and keeps on digging.

Government always fucks up. Pardon my french, but it's true.

And precisely why politicians need to stay out of the way of how people conduct their personal matters. But the whole point is ultimate control by the same politicians, isn't it? And this is what ObamaCare means to accomplish as well. People had better wake up.

This will give you an idea of how crazy it gets with socialized medicine. Say you need a procedure done that the province you are in cannot give you.

You apply and if you are turned down you get a chance to appeal.

This is in Ontario. Pay particular attention who is on the board that you the little guy is up against.

In this province, a patient whose application for out-of-province care is turned down can appeal to the Health Services Appeals and Review Board (HSARB).

According to lawyer Perry Brodkin, almost all those appeals are rejected.

Part of the problem, he says, is that patients try to represent themselves at the hearings — and find themselves up against a battery of high-priced OHIP and ministry lawyers.

And high legal costs mean it’s only worthwhile hiring a lawyer if the procedure is expensive.

“When we’re talking $25,000 only, the legal fees are going to be pretty close to that.

“If your appeal is granted, you get nothing. If your appeal is denied, you pay the $25,000 (for the procedure) plus all the legal fees,” he said.

Either way, you’re out of pocket.

So who makes up these panels?

Well, of HSARB’s 43-person board, 31 are lawyers. One is a chartered accountant, one is a mortgage underwriter and the rest are a mix of educators and consultants. The position pays $398 a day.

So much for the little guy.

'Death panels' a fact of life in Ontario | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

 

[tinydancer]

This is what a death panel in action looks like. Worth the read. Link provided.

If she lived in either Saskatchewan, Manitoba or British Columbia she would have access to this medication.

OHIP doesn't cover drug that could extend dying mom's life

TORONTO - Tell me how you do it.

How do you tell two children, ages seven and nine, that their mom has only two months to live?

How do you tell those children there could be an empty seat at the table this Christmas?

Then how do you tell those children that there’s a drug that could give their mom another 18 months of life — but the government has turned her down for coverage for that drug?

OHIP doesn't cover drug that could extend dying mom's life | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

 

[beagle9]

How much of that is unnecessary padding and how much is because of the way malpractice suits are abused? How many tests are just redundant, but the doc orders it anyways because if he doesn't he'll get sued?

I think it can easily be abused by both in the situation.

Incentivizing wrongfully the system or running it without strict oversight for we the patients and the good doctors who work hard to do right, causes it all to fail in the end for everyone.

We always needed strict oversight to look out for abuse and fraud, but for some reason that went lacking for far to long in this nation, and it has ended up where we are at right now in all of this.

The gnashing of teeth and the whining can be heard for miles and miles around now, but whose fault was it ultimately and sadly enough in the end ?

 

[Dragonlady]

This is what a death panel in action looks like. Worth the read. Link provided.

If she lived in either Saskatchewan, Manitoba or British Columbia she would have access to this medication.

OHIP doesn't cover drug that could extend dying mom's life

TORONTO - Tell me how you do it.

How do you tell two children, ages seven and nine, that their mom has only two months to live?

How do you tell those children there could be an empty seat at the table this Christmas?

Then how do you tell those children that there’s a drug that could give their mom another 18 months of life — but the government has turned her down for coverage for that drug?

OHIP doesn't cover drug that could extend dying mom's life | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

OHIP doesn't cover ANY drugs unless they're administered in hospital. This is why Canadians purchase supplemental insurance - to cover those things OHIP doesn't cover.

There is nothing to prevent this family from purchasing the drug themselves. The cost is $4,000 per month. I guess from your post, you're going to donate to this woman's website.

 

[Contumacious]

After sticking all our youth with our debt and Dem-O-Care..reasonably, you gotta wonder.

---------------------

Last week Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto family’s decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canada’s most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family’s choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.

In other words: Canada has death panels.

Canada has death panels, and that?s a good thing.

And that my friend is the definition of fascism

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....


Benito Mussolinihttp://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp

.

 

[Lumpy 1]

After sticking all our youth with our debt and Dem-O-Care..reasonably, you gotta wonder.

---------------------

Last week Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto family’s decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canada’s most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family’s choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.

In other words: Canada has death panels.

Canada has death panels, and that?s a good thing.

And that my friend is the definition of fascism

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....


Benito Mussolinihttp://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp

.

To strong of a word my friend, truth hurts their "feelings".