Could It Ever Be Enough?

[Madeline]

Just amazes me to watch rabid law and order types tuck tail and run when asked what they think of Ratzinger. RCC sex abuse apologists/excusers/deniers make me physically ill.

 

[uscitizen]

You left out family values and personal responsibility types.

 

[Hister]

The Rat went to England which I believe is a muslim country now, so what kind of response did you expect from carpet kissing crumpet eaters?

 

[Madeline]

I believe you have insulted almost everyone on Planet Earth with that post, Hister. Well done...if that was your goal.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If you or someone you loved had been harmed in the child abuse scandals, would this apology be enough for you to forgive?

Not me.

The Church needs to open all its records. Cooperate totally with law enforcement. Pay restitution to the victims and their families. Defrock all clergy who are guilty. End the practice of canonical trials for crimes forever.

And Ratzinger needs to resign.

If all that happned, I think mebbe I could forgive.

I seriously doubt the Catholic Church cares what you want.

 

[Madeline]

I'm a lapsed Catholic, RetiredGySgt. According to Ratzinger, they do.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm a lapsed Catholic, RetiredGySgt. According to Ratzinger, they do.

Ya right, the Pope is not even a Prophet. How can he be the leader of God's church on Earth if he can not even speak to or be answered by God?

Catholic Church is a hypocrite. They have billions of dollars in gold and artifacts and doing nothing with it except keep it for the Pope and religious leaders in the Vatican. Yet they will beg grandma for her last penny.

The organization that is the Catholic church care about one thing, the Organization.

 

[Hister]

The Rat won't let priests marry because he wants to keep the clergy 100% homosexual. I mean c'mon, look at the way the pope and his homies dress. Anyways, when god told adam "don't eat the hetero fruit or I'll kick you out of gay heaven", He proved his preference for men. Jesus also is always portrayed as a gay looking man...

 

[Madeline]

The Rat won't let priests marry because he wants to keep the clergy 100% homosexual. I mean c'mon, look at the way the pope and his homies dress. Anyways, when god told adam "don't eat the hetero fruit or I'll kick you out of gay heaven", He proved his preference for men. Jesus also is always portrayed as a gay looking man...

Well, whoever you didn't already offend I think was covered by this post, Hister. Do you mind much fucking off? I'd actually like to discuss this topic.

 

[Madeline]

I'm a lapsed Catholic, RetiredGySgt. According to Ratzinger, they do.

Ya right, the Pope is not even a Prophet. How can he be the leader of God's church on Earth if he can not even speak to or be answered by God?

Catholic Church is a hypocrite. They have billions of dollars in gold and artifacts and doing nothing with it except keep it for the Pope and religious leaders in the Vatican. Yet they will beg grandma for her last penny.

The organization that is the Catholic church care about one thing, the Organization.

I dun wanna argue dogma with you, RetiredGySgt. There are many reasons I'm lapsed, and I'm not in any position to defend the RCC. I think you mistake my Op. I'm not looking to bash Catholics...I'm asking, what would it take to forgive?

If the victim had been you, could you ever forgive? If you could, what would it take to get you to that place?

 

[AquaAthena]

Could Ratzinger aka Pope Benedict XVI ever apologize enough?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/world/europe/19pope.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1284836570-H7H/snXSmFbdWYl7BZfy8Q

Not to those who don't wish to forgive or let go.

 

[Madeline]

I would like to forgive, Aqua Athena. For the most part, I have. But if Ratzinger wants to reach out to folks like me, who've left, I'd need Justice.

That would take a sea change in RCC clergy culture that IMO has not happened. I think it is critical he resign because, by doing so, he could signal there are inescapable consequences for failing to stamp this evil out.

 

[THE LIGHT]

I'm not sure the two are comparable, The Light. There is no Chief Muslim In Charge. Doubtless various Muslim religious leaders have condemned terrorism; in the case of the current pope, he's (alleged to be) a direct participant in conspiracies to abuse children in the care of the RCC.

Do you agree he should resign?

No, there isn't one in charge in Islam and that is just how they have intended it to be so that no one knows who is who. That way, people swallow the whole fruitcake before they know what hit them.

As for the pope, I don't know enough to say that it should be one way or another but I do think that there should be an investigation if he is thought to be involved, and if he is found to be involved then he should resign and be punished accordingly.

Similarly, I think that there should be an investigation into the funds being raised for the Ground Zero Mosque.

 

[Foxfyre]

I would like to forgive, Aqua Athena. For the most part, I have. But if Ratzinger wants to reach out to folks like me, who've left, I'd need Justice.

That would take a sea change in RCC clergy culture that IMO has not happened. I think it is critical he resign because, by doing so, he could signal there are inescapable consequences for failing to stamp this evil out.

I'm not convinced they aren't dealing with it appropriately now, Maddie. I am pretty tight in ecumenical circles that includes the RCC, and I haven't heard of any recent scandals in which a pedophile priest was just reassigned rather than removed. If they aren't then a pox on their house. I have quite a few Catholic friends who left the Church when they were sweeping the problem under the rug. I don't think they are doing that now.

As for forgiveness, I don't know that it is our prerogative to forgive harm done to another. We can only forgive that harm that is done to us.

Our Sunday School class has been studying and discussing a series on heaven for some weeks now, and this morning, among other things, was whether we thought we would know people in Heaven and who we wanted to see. Many were anxious to be reuinited with parents and other family members who have passed on.

I thought of my father who was a thoroughly selfish, corrupt, and physically and emotionally abusive person from whom I suffered much and whom I neither loved nor respected. He's gone now, but though I don't feel seething resentment or hatred for him, I can honestly say the idea of meeting up with HIM in heaven is not something I look forward to. Does that mean I have not forgiven? I don't know. I no longer hold him responsible for who and what I am. I think that is about as close to forgiveness as I will probably get in this lifetime.

 

[Madeline]

I'm not sure the two are comparable, The Light. There is no Chief Muslim In Charge. Doubtless various Muslim religious leaders have condemned terrorism; in the case of the current pope, he's (alleged to be) a direct participant in conspiracies to abuse children in the care of the RCC.

Do you agree he should resign?

No, there isn't one in charge in Islam and that is just how they have intended it to be so that no one knows who is who. That way, people swallow the whole fruitcake before they know what hit them.

As for the pope, I don't know enough to say that it should be one way or another but I do think that there should be an investigation if he is thought to be involved, and if he is found to be involved then he should resign and be punished accordingly.

Similarly, I think that there should be an investigation into the funds being raised for the Ground Zero Mosque.

What nation would prosecute the Pope, The Light? Lawyers for plaintiffs here and elsewhere are having huge difficulty just forcing the Vatican to open its records.

I have no idea why Islam developed as it did, but I hardly think it was some sort of conspiracy to avoid detection.

As for the Ground Zero mosque, nobody gets a tax exemption from the IRS without a Private Letter Ruing, at least not on an enterprise this big. I am sure if there is a question about funding, the guys from the IRS are more'n competent to track it down.

 

[Madeline]

I would like to forgive, Aqua Athena. For the most part, I have. But if Ratzinger wants to reach out to folks like me, who've left, I'd need Justice.

That would take a sea change in RCC clergy culture that IMO has not happened. I think it is critical he resign because, by doing so, he could signal there are inescapable consequences for failing to stamp this evil out.

I'm not convinced they aren't dealing with it appropriately now, Maddie. I am pretty tight in ecumenical circles that includes the RCC, and I haven't heard of any recent scandals in which a pedophile priest was just reassigned rather than removed. If they aren't then a pox on their house. I have quite a few Catholic friends who left the Church when they were sweeping the problem under the rug. I don't think they are doing that now.

As for forgiveness, I don't know that it is our prerogative to forgive harm done to another. We can only forgive that harm that is done to us.

Our Sunday School class has been studying and discussing a series on heaven for some weeks now, and this morning, among other things, was whether we thought we would know people in Heaven and who we wanted to see. Many were anxious to be reuinited with parents and other family members who have passed on.

I thought of my father who was a thoroughly selfish, corrupt, and physically and emotionally abusive person from whom I suffered much and whom I neither loved nor respected. He's gone now, but though I don't feel seething resentment or hatred for him, I can honestly say the idea of meeting up with HIM in heaven is not something I look forward to. Does that mean I have not forgiven? I don't know. I no longer hold him responsible for who and what I am. I think that is about as close to forgiveness as I will probably get in this lifetime.

Thankies for your willingness to share, foxfyre. That takes courage, I'm sure, and will doubtless bring peace to someone else reading it.

I dunno if I feel "personally harmed". I was raised in a Catholic orphanage and saw these abuses go on, but I was not the victim. I feel survivor guilt galore, and I have terrible memories....but I wouldn't ever compare my suffering to those driven to suicide, etc. by what happened.

And I don't believe it is over. I'll believe that when the RCC proves that the criminals have been purged from its ranks.

 

[Foxfyre]

I would like to forgive, Aqua Athena. For the most part, I have. But if Ratzinger wants to reach out to folks like me, who've left, I'd need Justice.

That would take a sea change in RCC clergy culture that IMO has not happened. I think it is critical he resign because, by doing so, he could signal there are inescapable consequences for failing to stamp this evil out.

I'm not convinced they aren't dealing with it appropriately now, Maddie. I am pretty tight in ecumenical circles that includes the RCC, and I haven't heard of any recent scandals in which a pedophile priest was just reassigned rather than removed. If they aren't then a pox on their house. I have quite a few Catholic friends who left the Church when they were sweeping the problem under the rug. I don't think they are doing that now.

As for forgiveness, I don't know that it is our prerogative to forgive harm done to another. We can only forgive that harm that is done to us.

Our Sunday School class has been studying and discussing a series on heaven for some weeks now, and this morning, among other things, was whether we thought we would know people in Heaven and who we wanted to see. Many were anxious to be reuinited with parents and other family members who have passed on.

I thought of my father who was a thoroughly selfish, corrupt, and physically and emotionally abusive person from whom I suffered much and whom I neither loved nor respected. He's gone now, but though I don't feel seething resentment or hatred for him, I can honestly say the idea of meeting up with HIM in heaven is not something I look forward to. Does that mean I have not forgiven? I don't know. I no longer hold him responsible for who and what I am. I think that is about as close to forgiveness as I will probably get in this lifetime.

Thankies for your willingness to share, foxfyre. That takes courage, I'm sure, and will doubtless bring peace to someone else reading it.

I dunno if I feel "personally harmed". I was raised in a Catholic orphanage and saw these abuses go on, but I was not the victim. I feel survivor guilt galore, and I have terrible memories....but I wouldn't ever compare my suffering to those driven to suicide, etc. by what happened.

And I don't believe it is over. I'll believe that when the RCC proves that the criminals have been purged from its ranks.

I know there were horror stories as you recall. Just as pedophiles and other sex offenders are drawn to vocations and avocations in which they will have more opportunity, I sometimes think some of the most mean tempered and sadistic women became nuns. My own experience with nuns and others in the RCC has been mostly joyous and edifying, but I know the problems existed. Perhaps still exists.

I hope you're wrong that the worst isn't over. And I honestly don't know.

 

[Madeline]

The worst is likely over, at least in the First World. I just don't believe it's all behind us.

 

[Hister]

I'm a lapsed Catholic, RetiredGySgt. According to Ratzinger, they do.

Ya right, the Pope is not even a Prophet. How can he be the leader of God's church on Earth if he can not even speak to or be answered by God?

Catholic Church is a hypocrite. They have billions of dollars in gold and artifacts and doing nothing with it except keep it for the Pope and religious leaders in the Vatican. Yet they will beg grandma for her last penny.

The organization that is the Catholic church care about one thing, the Organization.

I dun wanna argue dogma with you, RetiredGySgt. There are many reasons I'm lapsed, and I'm not in any position to defend the RCC. I think you mistake my Op. I'm not looking to bash Catholics...I'm asking, what would it take to forgive?

If the victim had been you, could you ever forgive? If you could, what would it take to get you to that place?

Mad, are you lapsed because you can't get the image of your priest sucking a little boy's cock out of your head?

 

[Madeline]

No. But thankies for your compassion, Hister.