Conservatives simply don't know economics

[Mac1958]

Another 'Oops' Moment? Rick Perry Quote on Supply and Demand Mocked

Energy Secretary Rick Perry has a reputation for verbal gaffes, so the internet pounced on his latest remarks.

In a visit to a coal-fired power plant in West Virginia, the former Texas governor and two-time presidential candidate appeared to misstate a fundamental economic principle.

“Here’s a little economics lesson: supply and demand. You put the supply out there and the demand will follow,” Perry said, according to a reporter on the scene.

What an idiot. Must be why there's an oversupply of coal in the world.

BTW - he got a "D" in "Principles of Economics" while at Texas A&M. It shows.

The thought processes of hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum appear to be distorted, and their ideologies generally render them inflexible and incurious.

So trying to discuss something has dense, broad and complicated as economics with many of them, is typically a waste of time. As it is with many other issues.
.

I don't think they are equal.

I don't often see liberals try to claim that spending doesn't contribute to deficits, yet on the right self-financing tax cuts is pretty much a given.

There is disproportionate amount of ignorance, magical thinking and dogma on the right when it comes to economics.

The Left has their own weaknesses when it comes to economics. They're just simplistic in other areas.

Either way, it's often a wasted exercise. It's my profession. I don't argue with the auto mechanic when he fixes my car, because I don't know shit about cars.
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But that's not responding to what I said. Never said that there are not "weaknesses" the left, What i said what that it's much more common on the right.

Not from the perspective of an independent. What I see is more than enough arrogant ignorance on both ends.
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[Toro]

Another 'Oops' Moment? Rick Perry Quote on Supply and Demand Mocked

Energy Secretary Rick Perry has a reputation for verbal gaffes, so the internet pounced on his latest remarks.

In a visit to a coal-fired power plant in West Virginia, the former Texas governor and two-time presidential candidate appeared to misstate a fundamental economic principle.

“Here’s a little economics lesson: supply and demand. You put the supply out there and the demand will follow,” Perry said, according to a reporter on the scene.

What an idiot. Must be why there's an oversupply of coal in the world.

BTW - he got a "D" in "Principles of Economics" while at Texas A&M. It shows.

The thought processes of hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum appear to be distorted, and their ideologies generally render them inflexible and incurious.

So trying to discuss something has dense, broad and complicated as economics with many of them, is typically a waste of time. As it is with many other issues.
.

I don't think they are equal.

I don't often see liberals try to claim that spending doesn't contribute to deficits, yet on the right self-financing tax cuts is pretty much a given.

There is disproportionate amount of ignorance, magical thinking and dogma on the right when it comes to economics.

For progressives the issue is they don't CARE that excess spending leads to deficits, which leads to borrowing, which leads to kicking the can down the road.

Irrelevant, we are talking about understanding economics.

You can understand economics that spending increases deficits and still elect to spend knowing that.

But on the right there is fundamental REJECTION that tax cuts increase deficits, rejection of sound economics.

/---- We fundamentally reject it because it's untrue.
Tax Cuts Increase Federal Revenues
But you will fundamentally reject the facts:
In 1980, the last year before the tax cuts, tax revenues were $956 billion (in constant 1996 dollars).

Revenues exceeded that 1980 level in eight of the next 10 years. Annual revenues over the next decade averaged $102 billion above their 1980 level (in constant 1996 dollars).

Any increase in budget deficits was therefore the result of spending increases rather than tax cut-induced revenue decreases.

It is simply a myth that income tax cuts increase revenues unless it is from very high levels. That tax rates went down then revenue went up does not mean that tax cuts increase revenue any more than believing that communism works because Cuba's economy grows most years. There simply is no economic empirical research to support it. In fact all the empirical evidence refutes it. Greg Mankiw, Bush's head of the CEA estimated that every $1 in tax cuts reduced revenue that otherwise would have been generated by 83 cents.

There is empirical evidence that cutting corporate tax rates increase revenues however, even from modest levels.

 

[The Derp]

/---- It costs nothing to let people keep more of their own money. The Gubmint needs to live within their means like everyone else.

Tax cuts create deficits and debt. Every time taxes have been cut, household debt spikes. The reason is because the State is forced to raise fees for things like tuition and health care, which forces people to go into debt to afford it. Which is exactly what happened after Bush the Dumber's tax cuts:

And here's household debt & personal savings. Notice what happens when taxes are cut? Household debt increases.

Also, because the government doesn't collect all revenues at once, deficits are inevitable. The government running a deficit is not the same as a person going into debt. Government debt never has to be paid off because the government doesn't die. So long as our GDP grows faster than our debt, we have nothing to worry about.

 

[martybegan]

The thought processes of hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum appear to be distorted, and their ideologies generally render them inflexible and incurious.

So trying to discuss something has dense, broad and complicated as economics with many of them, is typically a waste of time. As it is with many other issues.
.

I don't think they are equal.

I don't often see liberals try to claim that spending doesn't contribute to deficits, yet on the right self-financing tax cuts is pretty much a given.

There is disproportionate amount of ignorance, magical thinking and dogma on the right when it comes to economics.

For progressives the issue is they don't CARE that excess spending leads to deficits, which leads to borrowing, which leads to kicking the can down the road.

Irrelevant, we are talking about understanding economics.

You can understand economics that spending increases deficits and still elect to spend knowing that.

But on the right there is fundamental REJECTION that tax cuts increase deficits, rejection of sound economics.

You do know that tax increases can also increase deficits if the people decide it's not worth sticking around to pay the additional taxes, right?

So you completely deny the concept of increased commerce leading to increase tax revenue with lower rates?

Deflection. Deflection. Deflection.

This is what happens when you try to have a sane discussion with the righty on tax policy. They can't admit you are right because they have their tax-cut wagon well hitched and they can't directly address what you say, so they run off form the general to some very specific circumstances where a tax-cut maybe, possibly, theoretically can pay for itself.

Thats not how it works - you start with sound general principles and then PROVE outstanding exceptions with outstanding evidence of a specific case.

it's actually a small responsive government fix, tax cuts are just a benefit of slicing down government to its Constitutional purpose.

And unfunded liabilities, a 43% tax increase and NO cuts to spending like Illinois just did is based on "sound general principles"?

 

[The Derp]

For progressives the issue is they don't CARE that excess spending leads to deficits, which leads to borrowing, which leads to kicking the can down the road.

Again, the government isn't a person. So when a person dies, the debt is to be collected. Government deficits and debt are mostly optics and have little-to-no bearing on the economic activity of consumers.

 

[The Derp]

The Left has their own weaknesses when it comes to economics. They're just simplistic in other areas..

No they're not. The weakness in Conservative economics is that it never accounts for the human condition of greed, and only seem to work when in a vacuum or controlled circumstances. Conservatives "will it" so. Liberals do not.

 

[The Derp]

liberals believe that food stamps and unemployment checks drive the economy

First of all, unemployment benefits are earned. Secondly, SNAP is what drives corporate profits because corporations pay their workers so little, they qualify for benefits like SNAP. Walmart, for example, costs taxpayers about $6B a year in income-based benefits. Walmart's profits last year were $14B. So we subsidize nearly half of Walmart's profits.

 

[Iceweasel]

But on the right there is fundamental REJECTION that tax cuts increase deficits, rejection of sound economics.

LOL. Thanks for the Econ-101 lesson, junior. But cutting spending isn't even on your radar, which proves you're a know nothing.

 

[Iceweasel]

liberals believe that food stamps and unemployment checks drive the economy

First of all, unemployment benefits are earned. Secondly, SNAP is what drives corporate profits because corporations pay their workers so little, they qualify for benefits like SNAP. Walmart, for example, costs taxpayers about $6B a year in income-based benefits. Walmart's profits last year were $14B. So we subsidize nearly half of Walmart's profits.

They hire two part timers instead of a full timer due to current labor laws and regulations. Ooops, got caught bullshitting again!

 

[The Derp]

Not from the perspective of an independent. What I see is more than enough arrogant ignorance on both ends..

So that's a lazy answer. It's laziness to throw up your hands and say both sides are the same when they're clearly not. A quick glance would see the fundamentals of one side are strong, and the fundamentals of the other rely on magical thinking.

 

[The Derp]

it's actually a small responsive government fix, tax cuts are just a benefit of slicing down government to its Constitutional purpose.

All tax cuts do is raise fees for consumers. Like what happened in Kansas; they cut taxes, which cut tax revenue, which resulted in a deficit, which had to be closed because of Kansas' BBA, which resulted in spending cuts to education, which forced the Kansas State Board of Regents to raise tuition, which forced students to borrow more, which burdened them with more debt, which delays them starting a family and/or buying a house, which harms the economy.

Without people using their houses as ATMs during Bush, his economic growth looks pretty shitty, doesn't it?

And unfunded liabilities, a 43% tax increase and NO cuts to spending like Illinois just did is based on "sound general principles"?

Conservatives screech constantly about "unfunded liabilities", but lack any sort of context for those liabilities. You say there's an unfunded liability...well, over how many years? Because those benefits are paid out over a period of 10, 20, 50 years, not all at once. You cannot possibly know what tax revenue figures will look like that far in advance. You can't even know what those figures look like 1 year in advance! So you assume that the growth in revenues remains constant at its current level and doesn't increase, even if GDP grows? I mean, come on. This is just pathetic and desperate.

 

[The Derp]

LOL. Thanks for the Econ-101 lesson, junior. But cutting spending isn't even on your radar, which proves you're a know nothing.

The only reason you want to cut spending is ideology. There is no economic benefit to doing that.

 

[The Derp]

They hire two part timers instead of a full timer due to current labor laws and regulations. Ooops, got caught bullshitting again!

Doesn't matter who they hire, what matters is what they pay.

 

[The Derp]

/---- Many mechanics have put their kids through college on customers like you. Local High Schools and Community Colleges teach courses on basic auto mechanics and maintenance. You should take one.

Maybe they did in the past, when college was funded and affordable. Since tax cut fever gripped the Conservatives, college isn't well-funded or affordable anymore, and people have to go into debt just to get their kids a degree. That is because tax cuts reduce revenues, which forces budget cuts, which forces colleges to raise tuition, which forces students to borrow more, which burdens them with debt, which delays them starting a family and/or buying a home, which harms the economy.

So tax cuts harm the economy and put people into debt.

 

[martybegan]

it's actually a small responsive government fix, tax cuts are just a benefit of slicing down government to its Constitutional purpose.

All tax cuts do is raise fees for consumers. Like what happened in Kansas; they cut taxes, which cut tax revenue, which resulted in a deficit, which had to be closed because of Kansas' BBA, which resulted in spending cuts to education, which forced the Kansas State Board of Regents to raise tuition, which forced students to borrow more, which burdened them with more debt, which delays them starting a family and/or buying a house, which harms the economy.

Without people using their houses as ATMs during Bush, his economic growth looks pretty shitty, doesn't it?

And unfunded liabilities, a 43% tax increase and NO cuts to spending like Illinois just did is based on "sound general principles"?

Conservatives screech constantly about "unfunded liabilities", but lack any sort of context for those liabilities. You say there's an unfunded liability...well, over how many years? Because those benefits are paid out over a period of 10, 20, 50 years, not all at once. You cannot possibly know what tax revenue figures will look like that far in advance. You can't even know what those figures look like 1 year in advance! So you assume that the growth in revenues remains constant at its current level and doesn't increase, even if GDP grows? I mean, come on. This is just pathetic and desperate.

The unfunded part comes from them overestimating the rate of return on the investment fund for the pensions. They say 8.5% a year, so we only have to add X from the general fund, when they really only get 3%, and then don't change X to make up the difference.

And i notice you don't talk about the real issue, CUTTING FREAKING SPENDING.

 

[The Derp]

You do know that tax increases can also increase deficits if the people decide it's not worth sticking around to pay the additional taxes, right?

Which has never fucking happened, ever, to any meaningful degree. I've never heard a business owner say they don't want to make more profit because they have to pay more taxes. That's just idiocy. You're better than that.

So you completely deny the concept of increased commerce leading to increase tax revenue with lower rates?

There is no connection between lower rates and more commerce. Quite the opposite actually, as we see here. Bush cut taxes in 2001, notice how shitty his growth was after that:

 

[Iceweasel]

LOL. Thanks for the Econ-101 lesson, junior. But cutting spending isn't even on your radar, which proves you're a know nothing.

The only reason you want to cut spending is ideology. There is no economic benefit to doing that.

See above. The only reason you love spending is you are a liberal. And you think we can spend our way into prosperity. Doesn't happen.

 

[Iceweasel]

All tax cuts do is raise fees for consumers.

That's a belief system, not economics.

 

[martybegan]

You do know that tax increases can also increase deficits if the people decide it's not worth sticking around to pay the additional taxes, right?

Which has never fucking happened, ever, to any meaningful degree. I've never heard a business owner say they don't want to make more profit because they have to pay more taxes. That's just idiocy. You're better than that.

So you completely deny the concept of increased commerce leading to increase tax revenue with lower rates?

There is no connection between lower rates and more commerce. Quite the opposite actually, as we see here. Bush cut taxes in 2001, notice how shitty his growth was after that:

Wasn't there another event in 2001 that may have impacted GDP?

Correlation does not equal causation.....

 

[Iceweasel]

They hire two part timers instead of a full timer due to current labor laws and regulations. Ooops, got caught bullshitting again!

Doesn't matter who they hire, what matters is what they pay.

Doesn't matter? A full timer makes twice the money, RETARD!