Conservative Groups Declare Obama's Stimulus Bill a War on Prayer

[garyd]

The whole point is moot anyway. If you respect your God, you shouldn't pray.


That may not be the dumbest staement you've ever made Bob but it has to be near the top of the list.

To pray is to talk to your God. I love and respect My wife but I'd best be talking to her time to time or she will get damn unhappy with me. Ditto God.

 

[Modbert]

Children who choose to pray publicly, in a society where there is a separation of church and state, will be allowed to do so. In a society where there is no separation, they will be "prevented", "punished" or otherwise penalized for daring to show religion when the state mandates that there shall be none.

Get it YET??

This is a struggle for you, I understand. Ohhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm.....

By allowing children to pray pubicly in a society where there is a separation of church and state; you are establishing as government a religion. Under the rule, that is not allowed.

Bullshit!
"Not Allowed"...

Are you out of your fucking mind? This is what separation of church and state exists to PREVENT. CHILDREN ARE ALLOWED TO PRAY PUBLICLY, and that includes in school, you FUCKING MORON. The minute they are penalized for it, then "separation of church and state" has no meaning, and you are officially penalizing people for their beliefs and using government power to subjugate and intimidate them.

This just blows my mind. What the hell are people eating, that they think it's OK for the fucking state to STOP CHILDREN, or ANYONE THE FUCK ELSE, from PRAYING IN PUBLIC?

Nazi fucking piece of shit.

http://nat.truemesh.com/archives/podpeople.jpg

Mindless pod people....

I was going to post another response to this until you call me a Nazi. Then I realized once again Allie that trying to have a civil conservation when it comes to religion with you is impossible as you are merely a wingnut who goes into defense mode whenever Christianity is involved.

 

[AllieBaba]

The whole point is moot anyway. If you respect your God, you shouldn't pray.


That may not be the dumbest staement you've ever made Bob but it has to be near the top of the list.

To pray is to talk to your God. I love and respect My wife but I'd best be talking to her time to time or she will get damn unhappy with me. Ditto God.

Says you. However, there are many who pray and our country was built to give them the freedom to do it in the way they choose, without having to fear their children will be separated from the other children in the schoolyard and tarred and feathered, without the fear that they will not be served in a restaurant, without the fear they will have to pay different taxes than others, or be identified by wearing a special patch....

 

[Modbert]

Have you just conveniently forgotten that this country exists because people wanted freedom of religion? As in freedom from government persecution for practicing their religion publicly???

Have you any clue?
http://nat.truemesh.com/archives/podpeople.jpg

Yes, people wanted freedom of religion. Yes, they didn't want government persecution for practicing their religion.

However, prayer in school is prayer in a public building owned by the government.

Furthermore, my state of Rhode Island for example and even the United States was created because people like YOU try to force religion upon others and make people "get with the program" instead of having a right of not having to deal with religion in a public forum like school.

 

[manu1959]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

so if congress gives money to a school and the school use it to build a building that children can pray in......

how is that congress making a law establishing a religion.....isn't not doing that prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech.......

my oh my has this phrase been perverted or what......

 

[Modbert]

That may not be the dumbest staement you've ever made Bob but it has to be near the top of the list.

To pray is to talk to your God. I love and respect My wife but I'd best be talking to her time to time or she will get damn unhappy with me. Ditto God.

BULL FUCKING SHIT. I am willing to bet that more then 75% of the people who pray and consider themselves "religious" merely pray when they want to ask God for something or ask him to change something.

You can talk to God without getting on your hands and knees. Or without "Praying"

It's selfish to pray to God like people do because:

God has a divine plan. In that divine plan, everything that is suppose to happen according to the plan.

When people pray they are asking God to change his plan because they think they know better then God.

And what makes you think that you, I, or anyone else knows better then God when it comes to any situation?

Furthermore, he most likely gets billions if not trillions of prayers a day, all asking him to change his plan.

And say that your family member does live, or you do get that job; what do you say?

It was God's will.

And if you don't?

It was God's will.

That's why prayer is pointless and disrespectful to God in my opinion.

 

[AllieBaba]

Have you just conveniently forgotten that this country exists because people wanted freedom of religion? As in freedom from government persecution for practicing their religion publicly???

Have you any clue?
http://nat.truemesh.com/archives/podpeople.jpg

Yes, people wanted freedom of religion. Yes, they didn't want government persecution for practicing their religion.

However, prayer in school is prayer in a public building owned by the government.

Furthermore, my state of Rhode Island for example and even the United States was created because people like YOU try to force religion upon others and make people "get with the program" instead of having a right of not having to deal with religion in a public forum like school.

How strange then that prayer was an institution in the schools until just recently.

As far as I know, no child has been kicked out of school for refusing to pray. However you are proposing children who DO pray be left out of funding, and evicted from "public" buildings.

What a bunch of nazi/pol pot b.s.

FREEDOM OF RELIGION you fucking idiot. It doesn't just mean we don't HAVE to pray if we don't want to...it primarily means WE GET TO FUCKING PRAY however we want, wherever we want, and the gubment can't do SQUAT about it.

 

[Modbert]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

so if congress gives money to a school and the school use it to build a building that children can pray in......

how is that congress making a law establishing a religion.....isn't not doing that prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech.......

my oh my has this phrase been perverted or what......

It's establishing a religion in general; which is wrong. Not just any certain religion, a religion.

Prohibiting the free exercise thereof would be saying that you cannot even think about praying in school.

Public Prayer in school is taking time out of the school day to pray.

And how the fuck is it taking away one's freedom of speech when they aren't talking?

 

[Modbert]

Have you just conveniently forgotten that this country exists because people wanted freedom of religion? As in freedom from government persecution for practicing their religion publicly???

Have you any clue?
http://nat.truemesh.com/archives/podpeople.jpg

Yes, people wanted freedom of religion. Yes, they didn't want government persecution for practicing their religion.

However, prayer in school is prayer in a public building owned by the government.

Furthermore, my state of Rhode Island for example and even the United States was created because people like YOU try to force religion upon others and make people "get with the program" instead of having a right of not having to deal with religion in a public forum like school.

How strange then that prayer was an institution in the schools until just recently.

As far as I know, no child has been kicked out of school for refusing to pray. However you are proposing children who DO pray be left out of funding, and evicted from "public" buildings.

What a bunch of nazi/pol pot b.s.

FREEDOM OF RELIGION you fucking idiot. It doesn't just mean we don't HAVE to pray if we don't want to...it primarily means WE GET TO FUCKING PRAY however we want, wherever we want, and the gubment can't do SQUAT about it.

When did I propose that these children be evicted from public buildings?

Furthermore Allie, if you want prayer in school so damn bad; send your kids to a Catholic school or whatever religion you follow. That's why they are there. So you can have your kids away from the influence of the "big bad government" which ironically enough gives your kids the right to go to such a school in the first place.

 

[AllieBaba]

Quick, get the Getstapo over here...some 6 y.o. is daring to pray in the lunchroom, can't have that...and take away the funding from this school.....

What a bunch of crap. You deserve a country that doesn't have any freedom, which is exactly what you're proposing. China is one, Cuba another.

I suggest you look at what happens when the "state" controls religion.

Even if that religion is an absence of religion.

"China continues to violate the right to freedom of religion, although the worst forms of persecution long-term imprisonment and physical abuse of religious activists appear to have declined in recent years. In China: State Control of Religion, released today

Human Rights Watch/Asia cites a dramatic growth in all religions in officially atheist China, with Buddhism growing the fastest of all. As interest in religion has increased, so have efforts by the state to control it. Chinese authorities continue the crackdown in the belief that religion breeds instability, separatism, and subversion, with Christianity and Islam in particular seen as vehicles for foreign influence and infiltration.

Control increasingly takes the form of a registration process administered by the State Council's Religious Affairs Bureau through which the government monitors membership in religious organizations, locations of meetings, religious training, selection of clergy, publication of religious materials, and funding for religious activities. The government also now undertakes annual inspections of registered religious organizations. Failure to register can result in the imposition of fines, seizure of property, razing of "illegal" religious structures, forcible dispersal of religious gatherings, and, occasionally, short term detention."
China Tightens Control on Religion | Human Rights Watch

 

[AllieBaba]

A key problem is the Chinese government's definition of freedom of religion as the right to private belief, rather than accepting freedom of religion in the broader context set forth in a key U.N. resolution called the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief.
China Tightens Control on Religion | Human Rights Watch
Hmm...

 

[garyd]

And that isn't talking to your God Bob? The bible tell me I should feel free to ask my God anything at anytime. It does not however tell me to expect that I will always get what I ask for contrary to the screwy notions of the prosperity theologians.

Half or more of my prayers are apologies for having screwed up some way or the other.

 

[Modbert]

Comparing my position to China is a micharacterization of my argument.

It's the same thing as comparing my position to Hitler.

I also don't like smoking, I guess I'm like Hitler in that aspect too huh?

When you feel like debating the merits of my argument rather then mispresenting it wingnut; let me know.

 

[AllieBaba]

Bullshit. It's the same crap. You are justifying the removal of rights by claiming that really, it's for the best.

It's an old story, and one which always has the same ending.

 

[Modbert]

And that isn't talking to your God Bob? The bible tell me I should feel free to ask my God anything at anytime. It does not however tell me to expect that I will always get what I ask for contrary to the screwy notions of the prosperity theologians.

Half or more of my prayers are apologies for having screwed up some way or the other.

The bible says alot of things; you're going to follow everything? Furthermore, where in the bible does it say you're free to ask your God anything at anytime? I'm pretty sure Jesus once said if you ask God of anything, he will grant it which is complete bullshit.

God can read your thoughts correct? Then therefore he knows you are sorry for your sins.

I'm pretty sure God would rather see you be sorry through actions of goodwill for your fellow human being rather then just saying "My bad G man" and going about your day. (Not saying that's how you pray but I think you get my point).

 

[AllieBaba]

And in fact, the terminology you use is almost word for word what my link says is the thing that is MOST wrong with China...

"A key problem is the Chinese government's definition of freedom of religion as the right to private belief, rather than accepting freedom of religion in the broader context set forth in a key U.N. resolution called the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief."
China Tightens Control on Religion | Human Rights Watch

 

[Modbert]

Bullshit. It's the same crap. You are justifying the removal of rights by claiming that really, it's for the best.

It's an old story, and one which always has the same ending.

I'm not justifying the removal of rights. But feel free to mischaracterize my position further.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sorry religious wingnuts; logic goes like this:

Church and State are suppose to be separated.

Public schools are owned and run by the State. Funding for those schools comes from the taxpayer.

Therefore, Church should be kept out of schools.

Simple huh?

I've explained this to you before, but since you appear to have a titanium skull protecting your tiny walnut brain, here we go again:

Separation of church and state is not a separation meant to PROHIBIT the practice of religion. It is meant to PROTECT it. The only purpose of "separation of church and state" legislation is to prohibit the STATE from PENALIZING people who don't follow the STATE religion..or lack thereof.

So Obama's determination to PENALIZE those schools which allow prayer is an OBVIOUS violation of "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE". Because he is very deliberately penalizing people for their religious beliefs.
Get it yet?

Fucking idiot.

???

If I get this right you are saying that the government should be able to fund religious causes because not funding them would penalize them? And therefor violate the separation of church and state?

I m sorry, maybe it is just me but isn't government funding of religious causes the violation of "the separation of church and state" principle and not the "not funding" of them ("penalizing" as you said it). But I don't think the government should avoid "stimulating" schools that teach a certain religion, the government should just say the schools can't use the money for religious purposes. And as far as I can tell, Obama is just abiding by the "separation of church and state" principle, he is not saying religious schools won't get money: he is only saying they can't use the taxpayermoney for religious purposes. For example: they should not build a church or a mosque with taxpayer money because that is purely religious.

Every citizen has the right to practice his religion. In school, on the street, in our homes, at parks. That is a right that is guaranteed to us.

This bullshit about "separation of church and state" and the whole cult that has risen up around it like a ring of toadstools is pure crap. According to Modbert "separation of church and state" means that nobody can ever pray in a public school, and government funds can never be used for any school which allows prayer. I'm waiting for the link to the alleged legislation that puts that forth, because it DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST. SEparation of church and state is a flipping sidenote and it was meant to PROTECT religion, not ELIMINATE it.

You guys are just frothing at the mouth to go right back down the road that's already been abandoned because it leads to nowhere except human rights and civil rights abuses.

But go there, by all means. Right, China, left, Cuba.

 

[Modbert]

I never said prayer would be banned in school. Nor does this funding say if any school allows prayer by a student that funding will be taken away.

However, the school itself taking time out of the day for prayer is where the line is drawn and where prayer is banned in that aspect.

Nobody here is playing thought police.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yeah, right.