Christians...justify hell

[kal-el]

Hell is the final abode for people who do not buy into the religion that is Christianity. For a Christian to say hell is metaphorical or that they don't believe in a hoof fed- devil, to me it's like saying Superman is real, but Batman is just a character in a book.

A "loving", compassionate God creates hell. That idea just doesn't sit right with me first of all. Jesus himself alludes to hell often in his ever so foggy parables. "There is constant weeping, and knashing of teeth". Mark 16:16 sums up Christianity perfectly:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned.

Those are Jesus' words.

Hell is a superb idea to further and attract followers to any idea. Without the idea of punishment, any religion would break in shambles. If there is no punishment for not following bibleGod, what's the incentive to be by him? I liken it to if you never, ever yelled or scolded your kids. When the time comes for mischief, they will think to themselves, "Geese, my parents never punished me, so what do I have to lose by acting up?"

Christians insist that we have free will, but if we don't use it just the way the character biblegod wants, we're to be tortured. It's a bit like if a robber points a gun at your temple and says, "Gimme your wallet, but you can choose not to, but if you don't I will kill you."

That's kinda what we get. BibleGod doesn't give us free will here, as we can see he doesn't respect our choice IF we choose to not believe in him. If he did, the truth of the matter is he would just accept it and have a nice day. But this is not what we see in Christian theology. It's God acts as the jealous stalker ex-boyfriend, who so desperately needs love, he needs that sense of ownership, and if he doesn't get it, he resorts to killing the person. (hell)

Hell is an unimaginable, terrible, horrendous concept. The mere idea that a hampster, let alone a human being will undergo endless torture is straight fucked up, and definitely makes one question the "loving" God attribute. Infinite torture is a punishment in access of anything anyone deserves. I don't care if your the scum of the earth, NOBODY deserves endless torment. No purpose is served by it except divine vengeance. It's kinda like getting caught stealing a Snicker's bar and getting a life sentence for it. It's totally stupid and barbaric. How can anyone be punished infinitely for crimes they commit in a human lifetime? It just doesn't wash.

 

[Mad Scientist]

If you don't want to worship God then don't. I don't have to justify anything to you. If after we die and there is no God then fine, we just stay in the ground. But if there is a God, you're fucked! You know this and can't handle it.

Besides, if you were really tough, you'd question Muslims who want to cut your head off, not Christians who are polite to you.

 

[kal-el]

If you don't want to worship God then don't. I don't have to justify anything to you.

Who says that I don't worship God? I just detest the concept of the God of the bible, that's all.

Besides, if you were really tough, you'd question Muslims who want to cut your head off, not Christians who are polite to you.

Yea you're real polite to me amigo. Anyways, the God of the Koran is just as skitzo and a megalomaniacal control freak as the biblegod. Christians and Muslims both beleive in fairy stories, so they have that in common.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you don't want to worship God then don't. I don't have to justify anything to you.

Who says that I don't worship God? I just detest the concept of the God of the bible, that's all.

After you point out where in the Bible it mentions Hell as a pace of eternal punishment I will point out why you don't know what you are talking about. Take a look at the original languages and you will see that they refer to the grave, not punishment. The reward for those who meet God's standards and choose to follow him, the "punishment" for those who choose not to do so is death.

You do not detest the god of the Bible, you detest the God of Christendom. Learn about who God really is before you judge Him.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

If you don't want to worship God then don't. I don't have to justify anything to you. If after we die and there is no God then fine, we just stay in the ground. But if there is a God, you're fucked! You know this and can't handle it.

Besides, if you were really tough, you'd question Muslims who want to cut your head off, not Christians who are polite to you.

Were you trying to exemplify this?

Christians and Muslims have taken turns being backwards over the ages. Muslims might be all nostalgic about the middle ages now, when you could stone your daughter for being a slut, but Christians were the backwards ones in the middle ages, with a total contempt for reason and intellect.

Pascal's Wager, i.e. your argument, is pretty silly. Since we know that reason and scientific inquiry can make the world a better place (even Jesus acknowledged that, "... they know not what they do," i.e. evil from ignorance) we would have to assume that a wise god would try to test to see who would give in to believing what they want to believe rather than what is reasonable. Hence Christianity would be a tool to weed out the reasonable from the unreasonable. How do you know the higher power would send the reasonable to hell rather than the unreasonable?

In reality I don't really believe in a higher power, but if one existed and were benevolent and wise, it would not resemble the one Christians describe.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Ever heard of a guy named Marcion of Sinope? He had similar complaints, so what he did is that he wrote up the very first canon Bible, and it was very different - it only had a rewritten version of the Gospel of Luke and some Pauline epistles. He totally rejected the angry God of the Old Testament and Revelations and other such things. The bible didn't really have any miracles of crazy magic, and Jesus is represented more as a spirit-messanger from God instead of a real human. This is the other cool thing about Marcion, which isn't really very unique and many other early christian sects and other religions have this, but: He thought the world was so shitty, that it couldn't possibly have been created by the real God, so the real creator of the world was just some lesser, evil God, the one everyone else worshipped and the real God was some sort of unimaginable goodness that sort of hangs out.

(Not that I believe any of this, but early Christianity is fascinating. All of this happened in the 2nd century, and Today's Bible didn't even come about as it is until the 4th Century.)

 

[Mad Scientist]

In reality I don't really believe in a higher power, but if one existed and were benevolent and wise, it would not resemble the one Christians describe.

Oh wow, you're so much smarter than all of the morons who worship the imaginary spaghetti monster in the sky aren't you?

If you were truly happy about the decisions you've made about God and Religion, you wouldn't need to make these religion bashing threads that you do. Your lack of self confidence shines through.

Freedom of religion is guaranteed in the Constitution. If you don't like it, too fuckin' bad for you. And no, my attitude does not go against Christian teaching. There is nothing in the Bible that states "Thou must bend over and take it up the ass from religion haters and enjoy it".

 

[LiveUninhibited]

In reality I don't really believe in a higher power, but if one existed and were benevolent and wise, it would not resemble the one Christians describe.

Oh wow, you're so much smarter than all of the morons who worship the imaginary spaghetti monster in the sky aren't you?

I have met Christians who are more intelligent than me in some ways, but there are many kinds of intelligence. Some people are selectively rational. The problem with the anti-Pascal's wager that I presented is that I don't actually believe anybody should be sent to hell or be allowed to cease to exist. But if something like that must be done, an intelligent god certainly wouldn't do it on the basis of who has the most faith.

If you were truly happy about the decisions you've made about God and Religion,

But I'd rather figure out what the truth is and learn to accept it rather than simply believe what makes me most happy.

you wouldn't need to make these religion bashing threads that you do. Your lack of self confidence shines through.

I don't start a lot of threads in general (starting a thread means you create a thread and are the first poster). But this isn't really about me, is it? It isn't about you either. It's about Pascal's Wager being an invalid argument in the context of reconciling a benevolent god who sends people to be tortured forever (or consigns them to non-existence).

Freedom of religion is guaranteed in the Constitution. If you don't like it, too fuckin' bad for you. And no, my attitude does not go against Christian teaching. There is nothing in the Bible that states "Thou must bend over and take it up the ass from religion haters and enjoy it".

LOL. Taking away religious freedom would, if anything, strengthen religion. So no, I wouldn't attempt that even if I were the decider. Can I argue against your religion? Yes I can. Can you defend it without simply bashing me? Not so sure.

 

[LuckyDan]

Justify hell? Easy.

Hitler.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Justify hell? Easy.

Hitler.

"Fair" would be for him to be forced to endure the same magnitude of suffering as he was responsible for. While that would take millions of years, it still would not amount to eternal torture. Nobody actually deserves eternal torture or bliss.

 

[edthecynic]

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
- Mark Twain

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't need to justify hell. Just need to keep people out of it.

Some people are in hell already. Because they choose to be. That's the only reason anyone is in hell. Because the Atonement will heal anyone who choses to accept the gift.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Don't need to justify hell. Just need to keep people out of it.

Some people are in hell already. Because they choose to be. That's the only reason anyone is in hell. Because the Atonement will heal anyone who choses to accept the gift.

And that system of celestial justice makes sense to you? Not that I agree with the idea that everybody is really presented with the choice. Real, true choice requires informed consent. Nothing in life can truly inform us of the Atonement, that's why you need faith. But faith is an unreasonable thing to ask of people. You're asking them to believe it, just because... to believe it without reason or proof. It's arbitrary and quite unfair if you're born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't need to justify hell. Just need to keep people out of it.

Some people are in hell already. Because they choose to be. That's the only reason anyone is in hell. Because the Atonement will heal anyone who choses to accept the gift.

And that system of celestial justice makes sense to you? Not that I agree with the idea that everybody is really presented with the choice. Real, true choice requires informed consent. Nothing in life can truly inform us of the Atonement, that's why you need faith. But faith is an unreasonable thing to ask of people. You're asking them to believe it, just because... to believe it without reason or proof. It's arbitrary and quite unfair if you're born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You will die and make mistakes. No one, except Christ, has ever lived without sin. Unless sin is removed we cannot progress. We cannot grow. And we cannot overcome death or sin without an Atonement. Mercy cannot rob Justice.

Everyone who has ever lived and who will ever live has the opportunity to hear the Gospel message and accept Christ's atonement. Everyone will hear the Word and will accept the grace or not.

God could have left us to our choices. He could have left us to suffer the full effects of justice. But He chose to provide a Savior for us. And He teaches men and women from the Heavens these truths. Anyone can know them if they humble themselves before God and sincerely seek to know. God reveals Himself to all men who are humble and prepared.

How is it people expect to know God without talking to Him? Without asking Him to show you anything or to learn anything? Yet still expect to understand everything without making any effort.

God is trying to teach us the secrets of Eternity. The only thing that keeps us back is our pride, our fear, our jealousy. We desire the riches and honors of the world instead of truth.

Every single person who ever lived or will ever live on this Earth will rise in the Resurrection.

And those of us who repent of our sins and come to Him will be changed from our state of misery to a state of Happiness. All we have to do is take responsibility for our choices and use the gift freely given. God isn't going to force you to. He wants us to become greater than we currently are because of our own free will. And if we don't we remain in the state of our own choosing. How is that unfair?

 

[LiveUninhibited]

You will die and make mistakes. No one, except Christ, has ever lived without sin. Unless sin is removed we cannot progress. We cannot grow. And we cannot overcome death or sin without an Atonement. Mercy cannot rob Justice.

I appreciate that you're being civil... but I can't say that makes sense.

So justice would essentially be getting what you deserve. It seems to defy reason that anybody really deserves eternal hell or heaven.

But suppose I assume for a moment that somebody deserves hell because they weren't perfectly moral. Me believing that a perfect god-man died on a cross for me somehow makes up for that? That makes about as much sense as a mother being able to take the death sentence for her son's crime after the mother wrote the laws. That wouldn't be justice in any conceiveable sense. It would just be insane.

Everyone who has ever lived and who will ever live has the opportunity to hear the Gospel message and accept Christ's atonement. Everyone will hear the Word and will accept the grace or not.

I think I already explained that there's no legitimate choice here while we are living, and alluded to how that choice would be nearly impossible if you were born in, say, Saudi Arabia, and hard to avoid if you were born in the Holy Roman Empire at the time of Charlemagne.

God could have left us to our choices. He could have left us to suffer the full effects of justice. But He chose to provide a Savior for us. And He teaches men and women from the Heavens these truths. Anyone can know them if they humble themselves before God and sincerely seek to know. God reveals Himself to all men who are humble and prepared.

So eternal torment, or non-existence, seems a just punishment to you for the least sinful of all people who have lived besides Jesus and who did not accept Jesus? That seems reasonable to you?

How is it people expect to know God without talking to Him? Without asking Him to show you anything or to learn anything? Yet still expect to understand everything without making any effort.

But how can you distinguish between talking to God and auditory hallucinations? I don't think I have auditory hallucinations, but maybe most people do. Outside of dreams, I've never had a voice in my head I didn't recognize as my own.

God is trying to teach us the secrets of Eternity. The only thing that keeps us back is our pride, our fear, our jealousy. We desire the riches and honors of the world instead of truth.

I desire what's real. I see no indication that there is even an afterlife, let alone a god.

Every single person who ever lived or will ever live on this Earth will rise in the Resurrection.

And those of us who repent of our sins and come to Him will be changed from our state of misery to a state of Happiness. All we have to do is take responsibility for our choices and use the gift freely given. God isn't going to force you to. He wants us to become greater than we currently are because of our own free will. And if we don't we remain in the state of our own choosing. How is that unfair?

Well that last part is denomination-dependent, IIRC. I don't think all Christians believe you'll have a chance to repent after you're dead. But at that point, with the "choice" of accepting Jesus or being consigned to hell or non-existence, there again wouldn't be much of a choice for a very different reason.

 

[edthecynic]

And those of us who repent of our sins and come to Him will be changed from our state of misery to a state of Happiness.

So you admit you are miserable.
You need to learn to be happy in the here and now, like me.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Lets ask some questions.

Man made hell. A few "facts" about Hell.

Satan is it's ruler. He exists in the flesh and metes out punishment as he sees fit

Those unbelievers of God will be sent there for the affront of not worshiping God.

Sound about right?

Now some actual facts from the Bible.

On Judgement Day Satan will be condemned to eternal death. WAIT a minute? If he is dead how does he RULE Hell, punishing those sent there?

Until Judgement day no one goes to Heaven or to "hell". Everyone that dies is dead, they know no more, they are "asleep". So no hell before Judgement Day either.

Those Judged and found wanting will be condemned to Eternal Death, those found not wanting will be rewarded with Eternal life, free of disease and sickness. If they are condemned to Eternal Death, where does the fires of Hell go?

Now if one wants to make a case that Hell is ruled by Satan and that suffering and death are there, one could argue that until Judgement Day that place is EARTH. Satan rules Earth until defeated by the Armies of God.

 

[Douger]

If you don't want to worship God then don't. I don't have to justify anything to you.

Who says that I don't worship God? I just detest the concept of the God of the bible, that's all.

Besides, if you were really tough, you'd question Muslims who want to cut your head off, not Christians who are polite to you.

Yea you're real polite to me amigo. Anyways, the God of the Koran is just as skitzo and a megalomaniacal control freak as the biblegod. Christians and Muslims both beleive in fairy stories, so they have that in common.

You got it right fellah.
When all of these brainwashed idiots find out what the supreme being actually is they are going to be very, very, sad that they fell for this shit.

 

[sparky]

hell is other people.....

~S~

 

[Hister]

Hell is the USA.